Should the EU ban the Swastika?

Oddly enough, the swastica was a Hebrew symbol too. In fact, it is historically found in Germany, the Subcontinent, the Americas, among other places.

arunma said:

I don't know. Here in the States, we take freedom of speech for granted. Over in Germany, people need to deal with the fact that their fathers and grandfathers were responsible for one of the world's most major atrocities. To prevent such things from resurfacing, the Nazi salute or verbal praising the holocaust can land you in jail for a year.

Click to expand...

Freedom of speech requires that we protect even the most unpopular forms of expression, otherwise freedom of speech is conditional based upon what's politically popular. As cultural trends change, who can tell what other idealogies will become politically unpopular. Maybe something you believe, maybe something I believe.

It strikes me as highly ironic that countries like Germany, in an attempt to discourage nazism, fascism, etc., ban forms of free expression. Is this not a step towards a type of fascism?

The most intimate and personal thing an individual has is what they believe in. No government should even think of trying to control this via laws.

Banning the swastika, of whatever form, will not banish bigotry from the minds of those who love to be hatemongers.
I understand that most modern people, except those who actually have some contact to Hindu or Asatruar culture and/or rites, see the swastika solely as a symbol of hitler... but then, there are many many symbols that are seen, or have been seen, as symbols of horror at one time or another. Should we ban them all? The christian cross can easily considered a symbol of horror when we think about the burning times or the crusades, is it not a symbol of hate by the very same reasoning? A number of Muslims (however many they may be) see the stars and stripes as a symbol of evil, so should this flag be banned? Who decides that, and on what grounds? How many people need to feel horrified, and what people?

Also, let me get this straight: The swastika is banned, here in Germany, since the end of WW2, for obvious reasons. The ban did not destroy fascist madness in our country... it just made the bigots choose different symbols. The hatred starts in the heads, not on a piece of paper or cloth.

Banning some symbols might make some politicians look good for seemingly taking action while others only talk, but it won't achieve much.



While we are talking about banned symbols: Some might be interested in the following...

http://www.rabenclan.de/index.php/Magazin/MartinMarheineckeSymbole01 shows symbols currently banned in Germany due to their use by past or present fascist groups. The article is in German of course, but suffice it to say that every symbol you see there with the stamp "Strafbar!" across it will get you in trouble with the authorities if you wear it in public here in Germany (for contrast, some pictures on that page show examples of contexts where the symbols are allowed, like the stylized human throwing a swastika into the garbage - a symbol of anti-fascist groups).

http://www.rabenclan.de/index.php/Magazin/MartinMarheineckeSymbole02 shows symbols that may or may not get you in trouble, depending on how the authorities want to handle you and the situation (first group of pictures), and symbols that will make you appear suspect in the eyes of some people although they are perfectly legal (second group). This means that, for example, if some fascist troublemakers get arrested on the street and you happen to stand near them displaying one of those symbols you might be interrogated too, just in case.

These pages show that fascist groups actively pursue a strategy of "symbol occupation", using one after another until it gets banned for the connection to them, with the goal of eventually connecting every even remotely Germanic-looking emblem to their sick ideals.



By the way, as for the "Nazi" vs. "Hindu" swastika:

The underlying symbolism of the "Nazi" (copied from Asatru) swastika is that if you superimpose two "Sowulo" runes over each other with a 90 ° angle, you get that other swastika. Sowulo mainly stands for the sun and victory, and the Asatru swastika historically was considered to be a powerful magical sign of Thor.

The freedom of religion IS upheld so that's why I think the EU shouldn't ban Swazika.
Foremore just because it's a REMINDER of an evil empire doesn't mean the evil empire is still here. besides the hindus aren't bad people I wuold know because a few of my friends are hindu.

Raonin said:

The freedom of religion IS upheld so that's why I think the EU shouldn't ban Swazika.
Foremore just because it's a REMINDER of an evil empire doesn't mean the evil empire is still here. besides the hindus aren't bad people I wuold know because a few of my friends are hindu.

Click to expand...

No one is saying that Hindus are bad people. The issue is whether or not Hindus should be allowed to use a symbol that was hijacked by the Nazis.

Well the Nazis stole the symbol and put it on an angle so even though it looks like the nazi symbol the hindus had it first so I still recon they should be allowed to keep it.

Well people have been speaking on grounds of "freedom of speech". Thats fine but I think the EU is banning it to "forget" thier history, which I think is horrible. We should not try to erase our history, be it good, or be it bad, regardless it still remains human. It is part of who we are, our identity.

But the past is in the past which means it's behind us. Shouldn't we be concerntrating on what is ahead us? in other words, we should forget there even WAS a world war II and let the hindu keep their sign of who they are and what their religion is.

But the past is in the past which means it's behind us. Shouldn't we be concerntrating on what is ahead us? in other words, we should forget there even WAS a world war II and let the hindu keep their sign of who they are and what their religion is

Click to expand...

I completely agree with freedom of speech, but what I am saying is the past is "who we are", we cannot change that. The past is our identity, not the future.

The thing is the more we remember the war (This is how I see it), the more people will feel that it is VERY nesesary to get rid of the hindus "Sign" just because the sign reminds us of how bad a time WWII was.

What I mean is in a way we should forget it but in a way we should keep it as part of our history.

What I mean is in a way we should forget it but in a way we should keep it as part of our history.

Click to expand...

Ok.

No I do not believe they should ban Swastika. Hitler ''borrowed'' it from the Hinduism and used it in the name of hate, and as already mentioned, the hate of the people will not be influenced by removing the symbol.

For me, freedom of speech is not the highest good. Goodness itself (Godliness) is the highest good, so I would ban the Swastika if I had the authority to do so because it represents a great evil.

xenia said:

For me, freedom of speech is not the highest good. Goodness itself (Godliness) is the highest good, so I would ban the Swastika if I had the authority to do so because it represents a great evil.

Click to expand...

Just so I understand your position; would you support the banning of the cross as a symbol, if it was used for evil?

bouncer said:

Just so I understand your position; would you support the banning of the cross as a symbol, if it was used for evil?

Click to expand...

That's quite a different situation, because let's remember that the cross is viewed by over a billion individuals as the symbol of Christianity. The swastika is universally condemned.

I think the problem is that many evangelical Christians are also patriotic Americans. And this can become a problem, because patriotism is often incompatible with Christianity. We're Christians first, let's not forget that.

I mention this because freedom of speech is an American value. However, that's not in the Bible. Freedom of speech is not a gift of God. In fact, God's law prohibits certain forms of speech. Let's remember that Moses lawfully executed a blasphemer. So if we are going to support freedom of speech, let us not appeal directly to God, because he neither grants us nor prohibits us from speaking freely.

The cross is not evil, it is a symbol of great goodness. The Swastika, as used by the Nazis, cannot be rehabilitated into any semblence of goodness and represents an enormous evil.

Your question about the Christian cross being misused to represent evil... that has happened in the past. I would say the Christian cross would be an exception to my rule. It should never be banned.

I mention this because freedom of speech is an American value. However, that's not in the Bible. Freedom of speech is not a gift of God. In fact, God's law prohibits certain forms of speech. Let's remember that Moses lawfully executed a blasphemer. So if we are going to support freedom of speech, let us not appeal directly to God, because he neither grants us nor prohibits us from speaking freely.

Click to expand...

I agree. In fact, most American freedoms are temporary gifts from God, which I believe we should be using to spread the Gospel. We may not have this window of opportunity forever. And God didn't give them to us so we could amuse ourselves to death.

When people start out a sentence with "I have a God-given right to...." they are already in error, IMO.

arunma said:

That's quite a different situation, because let's remember that the cross is viewed by over a billion individuals as the symbol of Christianity. The swastika is universally condemned.

Click to expand...

Universally?

I would think that you know better than I do that it is not Universally condemned. For many people the Swastika has no negative connotations whatsoever. The only blot in it's history was when the Nazi's chose to use it as it's symbol. Otherwise it has been used by peaceful Hindus, and Buddhists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Anyway, i'm just playing devil's advocate here. If Hindus or Buddhists don't have any problems with it being banned, why would I?

i know just recently here in Australia a house was flying a swastika and people in the area complained to the police and the police made them take it down. I dont know if the police here "have" the right to do that. I think its more of a unwritten law that you cant fly one. By the way this was the nazi logo.

I wouldnt want to see people flying them all over the place. But if they should be banned, i dont know. People in europe i would say, would be happy never to see it again. and fair enough.