Should one confess his sins to God or Priest?

grasping the after wind · Aug 24, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
The Penitential Rite is part of the Lutheran liturgy.

The form of the penitential prayer I'm most familiar with is this one, which I believe is in the Anglican BoCP,

"Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against You in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved You with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbor as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of Your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in Your will, and walk in Your ways, to the glory of Your Name. Amen."

After we pray this the pastor speaking in persona Christi, in the name and authority of Jesus Christ as a minister of the Gospel, declares our sins forgiven and washed away on Christ's account.

Something to the effect of,

"Upon this your confession, I, by virtue of my office as a called and ordained servant of the Word, announce the grace of God to all of you, and in the stead and by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

EDIT: Just to add something further, because I know there are people who may be put off by the wording "I forgive...". It's important and essential to understand that this is not by the pastor's word and authority, but the word, command, and authority of Jesus Christ. That this is done in persona Christi, in the name and stead of Jesus Himself, is critically important. The pastor has no authority or word himself to forgive sins, it is only speaking in Christ's name, and declaring Christ's own word that this is anything at all. The pastor proclaims God's word, not his own word, and God's word is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, and on this account we can be confident and have assurance that our sins are forgiven--not because the pastor said so, but because Jesus Christ our God and Lord has said so.

-CryptoLutheran

I have never heard a pastor say the words "I forgive you all your sins" I instead have heard the phrase " I declare to you that your sins have been forgiven".

In any case this is not a communal sharing of specific sins but a confession of general sinfulness.

Albion · Aug 24, 2018

grasping the after wind said:
In any case this is not a communal sharing of specific sins but a confession of general sinfulness.

That is the same understanding I took from the earlier posts and referred to in post 140.

akaDaScribe · Aug 24, 2018

Godistruth1 said:
Why not directly to God? Why go through the trouble of telling the priest?

I'm not Catholic, but I think the process of admitting to someone else what you have done, adds a degree of shame that some might not otherwise experience because they know God already knows what they did. So in some ways, the person has to be repentant enough to suffer the shame of confessing. In addition, by oral confession, it is like admitting it on record.

dzheremi · Aug 24, 2018

Albion said:
Just a minute. It may be my fault or just a misunderstanding. I don't know for certain now.

However, what I thought was being described in that earlier post--and to which I replied--was a system by which the person stands up in the midst of the congregation and confesses (itemizes) his sins so that all present can hear. If that is NOT what was being described there, my comments were not applicable.

Oh, I see. No, that's not what is meant by public confession. The division between public and private is a matter of communally-confessed sin (such as in the examples given above by our friend ViaCrucis) and individually-confessed sin, which obviously take different forms but are still confession(s). Liturgical confessions apply to the entire community just as liturgical absolutions do (which is one of the reason why you still see people who are technically excommunicated showing up to Coptic liturgies, for instance; they can still participate in the liturgy even though they cannot receive communion, so they still get the blessings of the absolutions which are prayed over the assembled people), and as I understand it both are a part of the liturgies of basically every church which is traditional enough to have an actual liturgy. I just didn't want to say "Lutherans have this too" without knowing anything about it since I don't know Lutheranism, but I was fairly certain that it must be in there somewhere. A big thank you is due to ViaCrucis for his reply confirming this. (Thank you, ViaCrucis.)

BNR32FAN · Aug 24, 2018

Lost4words said:
Are you worthy of forgiveness? How do you know that God has forgiven you?

Jesus sent out His Apostles to forgive sins or retain them. This, has been carried down through Apostolic succession. Both the Catholic and Orthodox church carry out this ministry today.

God forgives any sin that is confessed.

ViaCrucis · Aug 24, 2018

grasping the after wind said:
I have never heard a pastor say the words "I forgive you all your sins" I instead have heard the phrase " I declare to you that your sins have been forgiven".

In any case this is not a communal sharing of specific sins but a confession of general sinfulness.

Different forms of the same thing. Though it is worth noting that Luther in the Small Catechism writes,

"As thou believest, so be it done unto thee. And by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ I forgive thee thy sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Depart in peace." - Small Catechism, V

-CryptoLutheran

grasping the after wind · Aug 24, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
Different forms of the same thing. Though it is worth noting that Luther in the Small Catechism writes,

"As thou believest, so be it done unto thee. And by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ I forgive thee thy sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Depart in peace." - Small Catechism, V

-CryptoLutheran

I think by saying I declare that your sins are forgiven one avoids any misunderstanding that might arise for those not that schooled in theology.

Godistruth1 · Aug 24, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
God forgives any sin that is confessed.

That's easy way out! Where in bible does it say so?

ViaCrucis · Aug 24, 2018

Godistruth1 said:
That's easy way out! Where in bible does it say so?

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9

In the Christian religion forgiveness is freely given by God to sinners. That means everyone. God doesn't forgive you because you do X, Y, or Z; God's forgiveness is already yours on Christ's account, because God is kind and loves you. And by "you" and "yours" I don't just mean that in a general sense, I also mean that in a specific sense. You, Godistruth1, are forgiven of all your sins because Jesus died and rose again, and the kindness of God is for you, a sinner, through no merit, effort, worthiness of your own. Regardless of what you've done, what you will do, or who you are there is a God who loves you, and forgives you, and is merciful toward you. That is the Christian confession of the Gospel.

When we confess our sins, we are confident that God forgives us our sins, because of the word and promise of God in Jesus.

It's not an "easy way out", it's simply who God is in relation to you and the whole world. He's the One who loves and forgives sinners, saving them, redeeming them, and calling them to be children, heirs, sons and daughters, that they might know Him and enjoy Him.

-CryptoLuthearn

ViaCrucis · Aug 24, 2018

akaDaScribe said:
I'm not Catholic, but I think the process of admitting to someone else what you have done, adds a degree of shame that some might not otherwise experience because they know God already knows what they did. So in some ways, the person has to be repentant enough to suffer the shame of confessing. In addition, by oral confession, it is like admitting it on record.

We don't confess our sins to be shamed, but because God in His kindness forgives us, loves us, and embraces us in Jesus.

Confession and Absolution are Gospel, for our comfort and assurance in Jesus Christ who gave His life for us that we might live.

-CryptoLutheran

BNR32FAN · Aug 24, 2018

Godistruth1 said:
That's easy way out! Where in bible does it say so?

“But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9‬

akaDaScribe · Aug 25, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
We don't confess our sins to be shamed, but because God in His kindness forgives us, loves us, and embraces us in Jesus.

Confession and Absolution are Gospel, for our comfort and assurance in Jesus Christ who gave His life for us that we might live.

-CryptoLutheran

I find it hard to believe that you don't feel shame about the acts you committed when you confess them unless you don't think they were a big deal.

ViaCrucis · Aug 25, 2018

akaDaScribe said:
I find it hard to believe that you don't feel shame about the acts you committed when you confess them unless you don't think they were a big deal.

Shame and guilt for doing them? Yes. But the point of confessing our sins isn't to feel shame, but to be comforted with the forgiveness and mercy of God.

-CryptoLutheran

akaDaScribe · Aug 25, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
Shame and guilt for doing them? Yes. But the point of confessing our sins isn't to feel shame, but to be comforted with the forgiveness and mercy of God.

-CryptoLutheran

The point is to admit you were wrong and modify your behavior, correct? Part of the process of modifying your behavior is to not feel good about what you did. That is repentance.

Godistruth1 · Aug 27, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9

In the Christian religion forgiveness is freely given by God to sinners. That means everyone. God doesn't forgive you because you do X, Y, or Z; God's forgiveness is already yours on Christ's account, because God is kind and loves you. And by "you" and "yours" I don't just mean that in a general sense, I also mean that in a specific sense. You, Godistruth1, are forgiven of all your sins because Jesus died and rose again, and the kindness of God is for you, a sinner, through no merit, effort, worthiness of your own. Regardless of what you've done, what you will do, or who you are there is a God who loves you, and forgives you, and is merciful toward you. That is the Christian confession of the Gospel.

When we confess our sins, we are confident that God forgives us our sins, because of the word and promise of God in Jesus.

It's not an "easy way out", it's simply who God is in relation to you and the whole world. He's the One who loves and forgives sinners, saving them, redeeming them, and calling them to be children, heirs, sons and daughters, that they might know Him and enjoy Him.

-CryptoLuthearn

The context tells us to confess sins to God not men.

Godistruth1 · Aug 27, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
“But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9‬

Verse is telling us to confess sins to God not fellow Christian

Albion · Aug 28, 2018

Does this come down to "What constitutes confessing to God?"

If you kneel at your bedside and confess to God mentally or verbally while you are alone, I would agree that you are confessing to God. If you recite your offenses to a priest who pronounces absolution for and in the name of God, with everyone knowing that only God can ultimately forgive sins and that he does forgive those who are repentant...

...is there a meaningful difference?? Are the sins NOT forgiven in the second case above?

ViaCrucis · Sep 2, 2018

Godistruth1 said:
The context tells us to confess sins to God not men.

I don't believe God is so small that He somehow can't hear my confession when I pray it with the rest of the Church, or if I were to talk to my pastor, or speak to a fellow brother.

-CryptoLutheran

Godistruth1 · Sep 3, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
I don't believe God is so small that He somehow can't hear my confession when I pray it with the rest of the Church, or if I were to talk to my pastor, or speak to a fellow brother.

-CryptoLutheran

Why did u replace God by men to prove your point?

Should one confess his sins to God or Priest?

That's grasping after the wind

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