Should novelists strive to include everybody?

[BubbaJack]

Seems the author of the novel "The Outsiders" is getting a lot of flak for not including gay characters and "people of color" (characters of color?) in her work. I think we have reached peak insanity.

In addition to writing back to fans of her classic novels, beloved author S.E. Hinton now spends a chunk of her time fending off the social justice hordes on the Internet.

We wrote back in October about how people were mad that Hinton did not add explicitly LGBT characters to her writing, most of which she did in the 1960s and 70s. She now argues that pandering to a certain segment of readers in her writing would simply have made the novels worse.

Now, she’s being assailed again, this time for failing to adequately represent not only the LGBT world but also black characters. In response, Hinton tweeted out: “I am a heterosexual writer writing about heterosexual characters. Being attacked for being heterosexual.”

Hinton’s critics are upset yet again that she does not cater to them by creating characters in their likeness. Hinton, who’s most famous for her 1965 classic “The Outsiders” (which she wrote when she was only 15) points out on Twitter that producing plot lines to make a particular identity group happy will “kill the artist.”

She also responds to the haters by telling them to write their own gay stories if they want them. Her argument is that she isn’t going to write about something that isn’t her, but will encourage others to write those things (specifically, having LGBT authors write stories based on their own personal experiences).

‘Outsiders’ Author SE Hinton Says She’s ‘Being Attacked for Being Heterosexual’

 

[Saucy]

No. I don't understand this idea that everyone must be included. You mean, if I want to write a book, you're going to force me to add gay, black or other minority characters? I'll write the story as I want to, according to how it plays out in my mind. If all the characters are white, so be it. If there's a minority character added in, so be it. It's mine to control, not the LGBT community.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Seems the author of the novel "The Outsiders" is getting a lot of flak for not including gay characters and "people of color" (characters of color?) in her work. I think we have reached peak insanity.



‘Outsiders’ Author SE Hinton Says She’s ‘Being Attacked for Being Heterosexual’

They are just warming up.

 

[grandvizier1006]

If you don't like what's out there, then write your own thing.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

No. I don't understand this idea that everyone must be included. You mean, if I want to write a book, you're going to force me to add gay, black or other minority characters? I'll write the story as I want to, according to how it plays out in my mind. If all the characters are white, so be it. If there's a minority character added in, so be it. It's mine to control, not the LGBT community.

Books need publishers. These people will pressure and threaten the publishers. They are fascists, and they won't stop unless good and brave people stand up to them.

 

[Gene2memE]

Speaking with my amateur novelist hat on: You can't please all of the people, all of the time. With some topics and some people, you can't please them at all, at any time. Some people seemingly just exist to take offence at things.

And, when it comes to people with these sorts of mindsets, you're in a classic 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.

Say you're like me - white, heterosexual, mid-30s, middle class.

If you write what you know, about other people that mostly also white, straight and middle class, then you get complaints that your work doesn't include enough diversity, or that you're being deliberately exclusionary of groups A through Q, or that you're only interested/capable/suited to writing about your narrow-ish part of the world.

If you write about groups that are outside of your cultural, religious, racial, economic, sexual or social grouping/experience, then you're accused of 'appropriating' from these groups, of not properly representing them (even if you've had your work content edited by members of such groups), or even of exploiting the culture and the history/experiences of a culture for your own gain.

If you eschew minority groups all together, or invent your own, then you get accused of not being realistic or being able to write about the real world. One of my favourite fantasy authors got involved in a multi-year brewhaha about two of his dark-skinned characters, who existed in a fantasy world that bore no relation to any identifiable cultures on earth...

The trick that if you're not writing about groups outside your experience, make the book so interesting that no-one cares that **insert particular group here** isn't represented.
If you are writing about groups outside your experience, do your absolute best to make sure you know what you're talking about. Beyond knee-jerk reflexive critics, if you don't do the actual leg work when attempting to write about the culture/values/experiences/history/facts of life for a certain group, you should be criticised for not getting things right (Dan Brown, I'm looking at you).

Writing well is hard. Writing well outside your immediate experience is doubly so. Applaud those who get it right, chide those who get it wrong and boo (as loud and as often as able) those that don't put in the effort and are lazy writers.

 

[quatona]

Seems the author of the novel "The Outsiders" is getting a lot of flak for not including gay characters and "people of color" (characters of color?) in her work. I think we have reached peak insanity.

You mean there are quite a few stupid people on the internet?
Stop the presses....

 

[Greg J.]

A lot of people need to recognize that trying to control the world and other people doesn't actually work. It just makes that person feel better in the short term and worse in the long-term, and harms everyone else along the way.

 

[grandvizier1006]

Speaking with my amateur novelist hat on: You can't please all of the people, all of the time. With some topics and some people, you can't please them at all, at any time. Some people seemingly just exist to take offence at things.

And, when it comes to people with these sorts of mindsets, you're in a classic 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.

Say you're like me - white, heterosexual, mid-30s, middle class.

If you write what you know, about other people that mostly also white, straight and middle class, then you get complaints that your work doesn't include enough diversity, or that you're being deliberately exclusionary of groups A through Q, or that you're only interested/capable/suited to writing about your narrow-ish part of the world.

If you write about groups that are outside of your cultural, religious, racial, economic, sexual or social grouping/experience, then you're accused of 'appropriating' from these groups, of not properly representing them (even if you've had your work content edited by members of such groups), or even of exploiting the culture and the history/experiences of a culture for your own gain.

If you eschew minority groups all together, or invent your own, then you get accused of not being realistic or being able to write about the real world. One of my favourite fantasy authors got involved in a multi-year brewhaha about two of his dark-skinned characters, who existed in a fantasy world that bore no relation to any identifiable cultures on earth...

The trick that if you're not writing about groups outside your experience, make the book so interesting that no-one cares that **insert particular group here** isn't represented.
If you are writing about groups outside your experience, do your absolute best to make sure you know what you're talking about. Beyond knee-jerk reflexive critics, if you don't do the actual leg work when attempting to write about the culture/values/experiences/history/facts of life for a certain group, you should be criticised for not getting things right (Dan Brown, I'm looking at you).

Writing well is hard. Writing well outside your immediate experience is doubly so. Applaud those who get it right, chide those who get it wrong and boo (as loud and as often as able) those that don't put in the effort and are lazy writers.

I'd like to be a writer one day, but I'm always really conscious about "getting it wrong" when it comes to anything like history, scientific facts, etc. Plus I'd like to write about things that are different from my own experiences because it's a way to put myself in a situation I'll never be in by acquainted myself with a character. For example, I have this idea for ten short stories, all of which involve young male characters In fantasy settings. It came from a dream and I feel compelled to at least try it. But some of the ideas involve outlandish stuff or cultures similar to real ones (Ancient Greece, the Natchez tribe, etc.). Any tips on that? And I wouldn't publish this stuff unless I revised it and got with some people to "fact-check" and whatnot.

 

[Chesterton]

I agree. Everyone should be included in everything. I felt the same way when I read that book in the '70's, even becoming a bit of an activist. Back then there was this horrible homophobic music group, The Village People. They extolled the virtues of masculinity to the exclusion of anything else. Their personas included cops, construction workers, etc., only the most manliest of images. I wrote to them in protest. I told them they were very alienating and offensive to the homosexual community. You know how those bigots responded? They just mocked me. They sent me a two word note saying: "lol, wut?"

 

[Ana the Ist]

Seems the author of the novel "The Outsiders" is getting a lot of flak for not including gay characters and "people of color" (characters of color?) in her work. I think we have reached peak insanity.



‘Outsiders’ Author SE Hinton Says She’s ‘Being Attacked for Being Heterosexual’

This is an excellent example of why so much of "identity politics" is garbage. She wrote The Outsiders when she was fifteen?!? Wow...

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'd like to be a writer one day, but I'm always really conscious about "getting it wrong" when it comes to anything like history, scientific facts, etc. Plus I'd like to write about things that are different from my own experiences because it's a way to put myself in a situation I'll never be in by acquainted myself with a character. For example, I have this idea for ten short stories, all of which involve young male characters In fantasy settings. It came from a dream and I feel compelled to at least try it. But some of the ideas involve outlandish stuff or cultures similar to real ones (Ancient Greece, the Natchez tribe, etc.). Any tips on that? And I wouldn't publish this stuff unless I revised it and got with some people to "fact-check" and whatnot.

Write what you know...which is something difficult for a fantasy writer, but think of it this way...

Ground your plots in real life experiences.

Ground your characters in real people.

Ground your interactions between characters on real emotions.

Etc etc etc.

 

[JGG]

Everyone is white and straight. People of color and gay people don't actually exist. I mean, honestly, have you ever met one of either?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Everyone is white and straight. People of color and gay people don't actually exist. I mean, honestly, have you ever met one of either?

Trolls exist though.

 

[JGG]

Trolls exist though.

Only under bridges.

 

[Ophiolite]

Do the people who are objecting to the absence of gay or coloured persons (I'm a mottled pink myself) include centenarians, Samoans, Rastifarians, Mongolian sheep herders and the like? If not they should be castigated for their blatant disregard for inclusive behaviour.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Only under bridges.

I suppose every story should include at least a bridge or two then.

 

[JGG]

I suppose every story should include at least a bridge or two then.

All proper stories do.

 

[South Bound]

That's why I don't watch any new shows. Every show has to have a gay character jammed in there to show us how "normal" it is.

And I completely understand how if you're black you feel black characters are underrepresented and want to see more

But to put in a gay character or a character of another race just to make a point is just pandering and bad storytelling.

About the only "new" show I watch other than "Man In The High Castle" is "The Last Ship". I would be willing to bet any amount of money that when that show comes back they have a gay sailor

 

[JGG]

That's why I don't watch any new shows. Every show has to have a gay character jammed in there to show us how "normal" it is.

And I completely understand how if you're black you feel black characters are underrepresented and want to see more

But to put in a gay character or a character of another race just to make a point is just pandering and bad storytelling.

About the only "new" show I watch other than "Man In The High Castle" is "The Last Ship". I would be willing to bet any amount of money that when that show comes back they have a gay sailor

Joke's on you. All the sailors are secretly gay.