Should I eat breakfast or not?

sentipente said:

Why don't you accept Jesus' words that when Lazarus died he went into Abraham's bosom and listened in while Abraham had a "short distance" conversation with the people in the other place?

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Senti, what makes you think I don't accept Jesus' words, in the particular passage to which you are referring? I never said I didn't. At least, I am as sure as any human being can be, that I never said that!

sentipente said:

Otherwise, why pray "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven?"

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Hi, Senti!

Even though I know that you intended the question for Aza, I hope you don't mind if I jump in with my answer to this question, too!

Interestingly enough, although there are a lot of issues on which Aza and I don't see eye-to-eye, she and I are in complete agreement on everything that she said, in the particular message to which you are referring!

So, why pray "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven?" Especially if God's will is going to be done, anyway?

I believe that there are two reasons. Two reasons that are very closely related to one another. Namely, (1) because God wants us human beings to acknowledge His sovereignty in all things, and (2) He wants us to acknowledge our dependence upon Him!

That said, I don't believe that it is really necessary to use the exact words, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," when we pray. Just as long as we have that attitude in our hearts!

MRHarvey said:

Senti, what makes you think I don't accept Jesus' words, in the particular passage to which you are referring? I never said I didn't. At least, I am as sure as any human being can be, that I never said that!

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I know you have not. I did not want to waste any time. Still wanted to give you the opportunity to say whether you agree with Jesus on that point or not. I see that you sidestepped it.

sentipente said:

I know you have not. I did not want to waste any time. Still wanted to give you the opportunity to say whether you agree with Jesus on that point or not. I see that you sidestepped it.

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Senti, I did not sidestep -- nor am I sidestepping -- the issue. It is simply that the question of whether the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man should be taken as a parable, or as a true story, is not a primary doctrinal issue. It is not even a secondary doctrinal issue. It is, at best, a tertiary issue.

I will defend the Bible to the hilt. I will defend the Bible as the Word of God. But the question of whether the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man should be taken literally or symbolically is irrelevant to the truth that the Bible is the Word of God! So I will not allow you to draw me into a petty, little argument on that issue!

If you say you don't want to waste any time, why do you try to draw me into an argument on that issue? It seems to me that I am the one who does not want to waste any time here!

MRHarvey said:

Senti, I did not sidestep -- nor am I sidestepping -- the issue. It is simply that the question of whether the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man should be taken as a parable, or as a true story, is not a primary doctrinal issue. It is not even a secondary doctrinal issue. It is, at best, a tertiary issue.

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What standard did you use to make this determination?

sentipente said:

What standard did you use to make this determination?

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First of all, Senti, I am asking you in advance not to take offense to any of the things I am about to say. And if I have offended you in any of the postings that I have posted to you in the past, please let me know in a private message. (If appropriate, I will apologize.) It has never been my intention to offend anybody.

For all I know, it may be that you are indeed a born-again, Bible-believing Christian. For all I know, it may be that you have accepted Christ. It may be that you are asking me the questions you are asking, and saying the things that you are saying, because you like to play Devil's advocate!

That said, before we discuss what kind of a place hell is, and whether the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a true story or a parable, let us start with what we already know.

At the present time, we know that Hell is not a pleasant place, and not a place that anyone in his or her right mind would choose to go to. And we know that it is the result of a life of sin, and a life that has rejected the authority of the Bible, and of a life that has rejected Jesus Christ.

So why don't you quit rejecting the authority of the Bible, and accept it? Why don't you quit rejecting Jesus Christ and accept Him? That way, you won't have to go there -- to Hell, that is -- whatever kind of a place it is!

MRHarvey said:

That said, before we discuss what kind of a place hell is, and whether the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a true story or a parable, let us start with what we already know.

At the present time, we know that Hell is not a pleasant place, and not a place that anyone in his or her right mind would choose to go to. And we know that it is the result of a life of sin, and a life that has rejected the authority of the Bible, and of a life that has rejected Jesus Christ.

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How do you know that Hell is a real place rather than a representational description? Go back to what we really know and show that it makes a real hell an absolute necessity.

sentipente said:

How do you know that Hell is a real place rather than a representational description? Go back to what we really know and show that it makes a real hell an absolute necessity.

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Once again, whatever or wherever hell is, It is the result of a life of sin, and a life that has rejected the authority of the Bible, and a life that has rejected Christ!

So, why don't you quit rejecting the authority of the Bible, and accept it? Why don't you quit rejecting Jesus Christ and accept Him? That way, you won't have to go there -- to Hell, that is -- whatever kind of a place it is!

MRHarvey said:

Once again, whatever or wherever hell is, It is the result of a life of sin, and a life that has rejected the authority of the Bible, and a life that has rejected Christ!

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That means absolutely nothing, and you know it. That is why you refuse to deal with the issue directly.

Byfaithalone1 said:

This is a silly little side topic, but perhaps you might humor me?

Let's imagine for a moment that you are a Christian musician and you have travelled to another town to provide music for a worship service in a non-SDA church. A member of that church offered to have you stay with him overnight. Although that member knows you are a Seventh-day Adventist, he does not really understand what SDAs believe. He wakes early in the morning and prepares only one breakfast item--a breakfast burrito that contains sausage. As you arrive at the breakfast table, you note your host's enthusiasm about the breakfast and his interest in hearing your opinion of his culinary creation.

If you were faced with such a situation, would you:

(1) Politely decline the breakfast and explain the reasons why you choose not to eat sausage;
(2) Politely decline the breakfast and suggest that you aren't hungry;
(3) Try to pick the sausage out of the burrito and then eat it;
(3) Decide to eat the burrito because you believe it is more important to show love than it is to honor dietary laws;
(4) Eat the burrito in the same way you would any other day because you have no conviction one way or the other regarding the consumption of pork products; -OR-
(5) Some other option I haven't thought of (please specify).
​

Thanks for humoring me.

BFA

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You EAT THE BURRITO! Why would someone even THINK about offending the host at the expense of EATING whay THEY have prepared for YOU!!! Please...

In CHRIST alone...

I'll choose none of the options. I'll ensure situation doesn't come to this stage by telling the host that i'll be preparing my own breakfast the next day or going out to have breakfast or i would have sounded out his knowledge of Adventism.

But in the first place, if he's a friend willing to put me up for the night, then he would know me enough to not create such situations.

sentipente said:

That means absolutely nothing, and you know it. That is why you refuse to deal with the issue directly.

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Senti, when you say what you have said above, you really mean one of two things. That is to say, either you are playing Devil's advocate, or else you mean that you don't understand. For the moment, I will assume the latter.

Here is the real point: Even if there is no real, literal, physical place called "hell", even if the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is nothing more than what you call a "representational description", it still should be obvious to anyone in his or her right mind that no one should want to go to hell, whatever or wherever it is! And there is only one way to avoid going there!

Jesus Himself didn't say that the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man was a parable. On the other hand, He didn't say it was a true story, either. So to argue about the question of whether it is a parable or a true story is a waste of time. The issue is this: There is only one way to avoid going to hell! What are you going to do about that, Senti?

Byfaithalone1 said:

Fair enough. So, which of the 613 old covenant laws is currently applicable (if any)?

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Some of the laws were given specifically to the priesthood, these were primarily in regards to the rites carried out in the Temple. The priesthood no longer exists and the Temple no longer exists. Some of the laws were given specifically to the civil authorites of ancient Israel, a regime that no longer exists. As a general rule though, the laws given to people of Israel are applicable to us today.

freeindeed2 said:

You EAT THE BURRITO! Why would someone even THINK about offending the host at the expense of EATING whay THEY have prepared for YOU!!! Please...

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If someone is offended by my decision not to eat the burrito, even after I have clearly explained the reason for my choice, then I can only conclude that they are offended by my faith. I can't help those who are offended by my faith unless they are willing to change their attitude.

Restin said:

To have the experience of watching a new born baby come into this world is beyond words. Then to watch the little one take it's first breath. To see someone angry and stern truly repent - their life totally changes. This too is more than words can express. Only the highest authority is able to give life, able to change the heart to express repentance in a true way that changes anger to love. That's why I believe in God, that's why I believe in His written word.

Authority for what? Authority to give life and to take it. Authority to take us beyond the grave!

That said, I do not believe the words of the Bible themselves lead anyone to believe in the Bible or in the God of the Bible in a way to change one's life from anger to love. Without the spirit of God accompaniny the writing of the words -- the Bible as a book is nothing!

Restin

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Thank you for your testimony and sharing your views, Retsin! I think I would say that I am in 100% agreement with everything you said, provided that I am understanding you correctly. Just one simple question...

That said, I do not believe the words of the Bible themselves lead anyone to believe in the Bible or in the God of the Bible in a way to change one's life from anger to love. Without the spirit of God accompaniny the writing of the words -- the Bible as a book is nothing!

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I think you would agree, though, that a person does not have to be saved yet for the Holy Spirit to speak to his or her heart and accompany the Written Word. The Holy Spirit can still speak to the heart of a searching agnostic. Do you not agree?

freeindeed2 said:

You EAT THE BURRITO! Why would someone even THINK about offending the host at the expense of EATING whay THEY have prepared for YOU!!! Please...

In CHRIST alone...

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In the culture that I live in, if someone is offended by me not eating the food they have prepared (which I don't like, and sickens me), than they are so different from the standard member that they would be 'insane'.

If it was some other culture, I am sure some exist, than it might be best to eat.

JM

MRHarvey said:

I think you would agree, though, that a person does not have to be saved yet for the Holy Spirit to speak to his or her heart and accompany the Written Word. The Holy Spirit can still speak to the heart of a searching agnostic. Do you not agree?

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Yes, I agree! The Holy Spirit can and does speak to anyone - anywhere, according as God wills. The Holy Spirit is not limited to time or space. The Holy Spirit is constantly leading, drawing all man unto the salvation of Jesus Christ, including the agnostic, the infidel, the murderer, et-all, even when they are NOT searching for truth.

Least I be misunderstood, I do think the Written Word is given for clearer understanding about who and what God is. There was a short time when I felt that I had the Holy Spirit and did not need the Written Word. Then I fell in to many wanderings of mind that were not founded on the Written Word. So, I did have to go back and hinge all my spiritual thoughts on 'It is Written', with the guide of the Holy Spirit.

Restin

Restin said:

Yes, I agree! The Holy Spirit can and does speak to anyone - anywhere, according as God wills. The Holy Spirit is not limited to time or space. The Holy Spirit is constantly leading, drawing all man unto the salvation of Jesus Christ, including the agnostic, the infidel, the murderer, et-all, even when they are NOT searching for truth.

Least I be misunderstood, I do think the Written Word is given for clearer understanding about who and what God is. There was a short time when I felt that I had the Holy Spirit and did not need the Written Word. Then I fell in to many wanderings of mind that were not founded on the Written Word. So, I did have to go back and hinge all my spiritual thoughts on 'It is Written', with the guide of the Holy Spirit.

Restin

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1John 2:27 As for you, the Spirit which he gave you is still in you, and you have no need of any teacher; but as his Spirit gives you teaching about all things, and is true and not false, so keep your hearts in him, through the teaching which he has given you.

here is how it reads in other translations:

(ASV) And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

(BBE) As for you, the Spirit which he gave you is still in you, and you have no need of any teacher; but as his Spirit gives you teaching about all things, and is true and not false, so keep your hearts in him, through the teaching which he has given you.

(CEV) But Christ has blessed you with the Holy Spirit. Now the Spirit stays in you, and you don't need any teachers. The Spirit is truthful and teaches you everything. So stay one in your heart with Christ, just as the Spirit has taught you to do.

(EMTV) And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

(GW) The anointing you received from Christ lives in you. You don't need anyone to teach you something else. Instead, Christ's anointing teaches you about everything. His anointing is true and contains no lie. So live in Christ as he taught you to do.

(HNV) As for you, the anointing which you received from him remains in you, and you don't need for anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, you will remain in him.

(ISV) The anointing you received from him abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. Instead, because his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not a lie, abide in him, as he taught you to do.

(KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

(LITV) And the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you. But as His anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and as He taught you, abide in Him.

(MKJV) But the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true and no lie, and as He has taught you, abide in Him.

(MSG) But they're no match for what is embedded deeply within you--Christ's anointing, no less! You don't need any of their so-called teaching. Christ's anointing teaches you the truth on everything you need to know about yourself and him, uncontaminated by a single lie. Live deeply in what you were taught.

(WEB) As for you, the anointing which you received from him remains in you, and you don't need for anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, you will remain in him.

(WNT) And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him remains within you, and there is no need for any one to teach you. But since His anointing gives you instruction in all things--and is true and is no falsehood--you are continuing in union with Him even as it has taught you to do.

(YLT) and you, the anointing that ye did receive from him, in you it doth remain, and ye have no need that any one may teach you, but as the same anointing doth teach you concerning all, and is true, and is not a lie, and even as was taught you, ye shall remain in him.

my point? many are in relationship with God and have never cracked open a bible, much less read one....

There's a sweet nonAdventist pastor here, Stormy, who spent last Wednesday night Bible study discussing that point with his congregation. I'm sure he read verse 20 at least three times: "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." He put a pretty big emphasis on "all things."
It would not sound sacriligious or cocky if we believed we were connected to the ever-revealing Source, and we acknowledged Him as the One Who Knows.

The context of the discussion was false teachers, controllers, and discernment.

AzA said:

There's a sweet nonAdventist pastor here, Stormy, who spent last Wednesday night Bible study discussing that point with his congregation. I'm sure he read verse 20 at least three times: "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." He put a pretty big emphasis on "all things."
It would not sound sacriligious or cocky if we believed we were connected to the ever-revealing Source, and we acknowledged Him as the One Who Knows.

The context of the discussion was false teachers, controllers, and discernment.

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yep..... you are correct..... 1John 2:20 And you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

Unfortunately people don't believe it...