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Silmarien

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So, are you essentially saying I need to be nicer and fuller of Christmas cheer or than I'm kind of ignorant,

..... or both?

Neither. I just think you just underestimate the pull that the naturalistic worldview has for people of a skeptical temperament. I don't think that worldview is particularly enlightened, but it's weirdly magnetic. A highly fideistic approach isn't going to be of much use to anyone who genuinely worries that the whole thing is just so much wish fulfillment.

You seem to have escaped the pull of modern naturalism. That's great, but I don't think it's the norm, and the intellectual hindrances that naturalism poses can't be overcome by Pascal alone. Maybe a couple centuries ago, they could be, but we live in a very different world now.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well...............................yeah! True enough. But that's partially because there's been too much "Genie-in-a-Bottle" theology running around for the last 100 years or so and has led to many deeply disappointed and disillusioned ex-christians. The other part has been the fact that many people who call themselves Christian think that being Christian is a National Political and Legal Calling when it isn't. And while I'm not necessarily a big fan of the separation of Church and State, I'm no Theonomist (Dominionist), either. And I never have been.

You seem to have escaped the pull of modern naturalism. That's great, but I don't think it's the norm, and the intellectual hindrances that naturalism poses can't be overcome by Pascal alone.
That's true! Pascal isn't enough, and I haven't relied upon Pascal alone, although I note that many skeptics here have been paying attention to this fact.
 
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Silmarien

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That wasn't a jab at you, Philo. Before I joined this forum, I spent a bit of time at a conservative Evangelical one (I don't think I knew what Evangelicalism was at that point ). There were nice people there, but there were also a couple of fire breathers, and getting lectures about my presuppositions was... alienating, to say the least. Which doesn't mean that I didn't have presuppositions, but that's an issue I'm not even sure how to approach constructively.

The only thing you in particular do that I'd rather you didn't is talk in a somewhat self-referential manner. I never know what precisely you have in mind when you alude to biblical hermeunetics or mention that you agree with a specific scholar I've never heard of before. I wouldn't mind a bit more clarity when you talk about some of this stuff, since I'd actually love to understand your point of view a bit better!


I don't think you're going to find any theistic Platonist who thinks the Euthyphro can be used to show that God cannot be the source of morality. That is the traditional Platonic position, more or less, so the people who are making use of the argument for polemical purposes are seldom going to be the actual Platonists.

Anyway, I wasn't saying that Plato could be transferred to the Bible wholesale. Quite the opposite--I found the Platonist identity easy to work with because there's no expectation that you're doing anything with Scripture one way or the other. Easiest way to avoid an argument over biblical literalism is to change the topic. (I play the Platonist card whenever I venture into traditional Catholic territory also. Better to be associated with the classical traditions than with liberal Protestantism.)
 
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Silmarien

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Yes, but the question isn't what you yourself rely on. It's about the legitimacy of apologetics as a field. I don't get much use out of William Craig's work, for example, but I wouldn't tell him to stop what he's doing. Well... in that case maybe I might, since I think the debates themselves are a bit of a travesty if you're interested in what's true and not merely in rhetorical ploys. But if people see value in something like the Kalam or fine-tuning, so be it. Different things make different people stop and think.
 
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zippy2006

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This is interesting. I think the therapist-client relationship is a really problematic way to engage in apologetics because of the power imbalance inherent in it.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too.


The other nice thing about bringing in a third perspective is that it avoids "two party politics." Thomism has an ability to function that way via Aristotle, too.
 
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FireDragon76

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I'm really shocked you can't see the danger in your approach, when you seem to level some harsh criticisms against fideism, which in principle wouldn't be so bad, and might avoid alot of the garbage in Christian discourse. At least Penner is saying Christians should be more like Jesus and less like the Christian Taliban. If you take metaphysics and philosophical justifications that seriously, then that is a real temptation.

Religion is far more involving in the totality of ones being than just a bunch of propositions that informs ones thought. Penner gets that, I think even @2PhiloVoid gets that to some extent.


The Socratic method cuts both ways.

If American apologetics is about actually winning people over and not simply the Christian right engaging in some sort of self-congratulatory hate fest, they need to put considerable more thought into presentation.

Which is precisely why Craig is the intellectual apologist for those who are more anti-Christs in the true sense. Because the religious assumptions he brings to the table are rooted in American evangelicalism, the sort of thing you rightly point out as toxic.
 
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Silmarien

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One of these days you're going to have to accept that I'm in the neo-scholastic camp. You cannot tell me to not believe something that I find intellectually compelling--that wouldn't make any sense.

There's no conflict between thinking that theism is true on philosophical grounds and taking Jesus's teachings seriously. Honestly, I find it bizarre that you would think there's a contradiction there.

Also, it's ridiculous to say that if you're interested in metaphysics, you don't treat religion as more than a bunch of propositions.

The Socratic method cuts both ways.

I have no problem with that.


I actually don't think Craig is anywhere near the worst offender. I had many more issues trying to read Norman Geisler. I think he insulted me five times on the first page, lol.
 
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FireDragon76

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One of these days you're going to have to accept that I'm in the neo-scholastic camp. You cannot tell me to not believe something that I find intellectually compelling--that wouldn't make any sense.

"Compelling" for me is more than just coherency or correspondence, it must also include ethos and pathos. I believe that's a more well-rounded way to look at the issue.

There's no conflict between thinking that theism is true on philosophical grounds and taking Jesus's teachings seriously. Honestly, I find it bizarre that you would think there's a contradiction there.

It's not a contradiction but many people such as Craig believe they are following Jesus when in reality they are following a religion about Jesus and never subjecting the religion itself to critical scrutiny.
 
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Silmarien

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"Compelling" for me is more than just coherency or correspondence, it must also include ethos and pathos. I believe that's a more well-rounded way to look at the issue.

Okay. Not sure why you'd expect metaphysics to include ethos or pathos anymore than mathematics would, but you're welcome to look at the issue in whichever way you please. Doesn't mean that I don't find it compelling.

It's not a contradiction but many people such as Craig believe they are following Jesus when in reality they are following a religion about Jesus and never subjecting the religion itself to critical scrutiny.

Meh. I'm not going to judge Craig one way or the other, but nobody ever became a bad Christian simply on account of believing that God existed for philosophical reasons. That makes no sense.
 
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FireDragon76

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Why not? It kept me going for a while. If you have a good religious community that's attractive, that can draw you in. Not everybody is attracted to religion for intellectual reasons. And while intellectualism has its place, I believe it's mostly a device to help us in secular life, not to answer the big questions.

The Buddha himself in the Kalama Sutra seems to suggest that reason alone is not sufficient grounds to adopt a belief. We should follow the teachings which lead to benefit and happiness and which are commended by the wise.
 
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Silmarien

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I'm not saying that everyone is attracted to religion for intellectual reasons. I'm saying that some people (such as myself) have benefited greatly from certain forms of apologetics, and that fideists who go around telling apologists to abandon ship are deeply misguided.

You seem to be saying that because fideism was good enough for you, it ought to be good enough for everyone. Even though it ultimately failed even for you. I don't understand that argument on multiple levels.
 
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muichimotsu

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I've gleaned enough to get some idea, but I certainly am not making any broad brush statements. I'm not assuming malice from your engagement, I'd rather not violate Hanlon's razor

Perhaps my tone is iffy on that and I haven't conveyed properly that I'm not intending to dismiss you, but point out that there's a necessary gulf here in terms of what could be phrased as presuppositions, but probably better understood as worldview axioms

The question becomes one I would ask in regards to apologetic attempts in general, "Why should I take your conclusion seriously even if it happens to be true even in part, such as God existing?" The impact in terms of meaning, purpose, etc, is almost as important as the evidential and logical arguments you can make for something being real.
 
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FireDragon76

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I actually was persuaded by Craig at one time years ago, but it took a while for me to realize his apologetic potentially obscures the positive elements of Christianity, and can even lead them to some negative places, accepting authoritarian paradigms for a religion that should be alot more about liberation. That is why I am saying all that glitters is not gold.

Fideism itself did not fail me really, I simply never was a fideist. I was motivated by pragmatism more than anything in the end, and a mainline Protestant sort of belief that the Church should be a prototypical "Beloved Community", following the historical Jesus of Nazareth's example. Now I'm toying with the idea that the Beloved Community isn't exclusive to Christianity, or that Christianity isn't necessarily the best embodiment of that for everyone.
 
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FireDragon76

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I agree with your line of thinking.

Perhaps this is related to something that the Rev. Gordon Berment (a Buddhist minister and former president of the BCA) pointed out in one of his lectures, that the mistake of the west was minimizing ethics. That's how disasterous nihilistic philosophies and religious extremism could take hold. That was like a "Eureka!" moment for me.
 
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muichimotsu

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I wouldn't call my axioms assumptions so much as something that's cogent in the same way of the logical principles of non contradiction, identity, etc. The idea that we can just feel something as true seems far more the line of thought with theistic worldviews, atheism and related nontheistic ideas are more skeptical and that's hardly a quandary unless you're setting out to undermine it because it actually brings deeply held beliefs into question.

Also, if your belief in a god is based in logic, isn't that sort of reducing that god in scope to something that's not nearly so transcendent and reliant primarily on faith in the first place?
 
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Silmarien

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You were persuaded by Craig and then decided that his apologetic approach had moral problems? If there was an argument there that you thought worked, then the argument should have been sound regardless of whether or not Craig himself was a problematic figure.

I can sympathize with thinking that an apologist that you otherwise agree with is basically an authoritarian with political motives. I've got similar issues with an apologist that I follow, but that doesn't mean that I suddenly think he's wrong about things that I previously found persuasive.
 
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FireDragon76

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The theistic assumption seem to be that if God exists, God wants to be known, or that meaningful, clear communication is possible.


As I pointed out, I think the ethical is primary. That's how we avoid demonolatry, which I believe is a real risk. Just keep in mind at the time I was most decidedly not a dogmatic materialist. I had experience with meditation at the time and that ship had sailed a long time ago.
 
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muichimotsu

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It's not even minimizing ethics, it's minimizing demonstration of the truth of claims rather than merely being compelling, which strikes me as focusing on rhetorical angles rather than being critical and understanding that you finding something compelling and sensible doesn't make it true
 
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muichimotsu

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The theistic assumption seem to be that if God exists, God wants to be known, or that meaningful, clear communication is possible.
Theistic in the revealed religion sense, sure, but not necessarily theism at large, because some would just say it's an ineffable transcendent reality that we can only get pieces of and often through what amounts to natural theology and not divine revelation (deism, etc)
 
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FireDragon76

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I am comfortable with pragmatic notions of truth, and skeptical of claims of absolute truth one way or another.
 
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