Should Atheists be punished for not believing

No. That is simply not how it works. Even if Hell did exist, I don't think an atheist would be any more likely than a "believer."

Birthew said:

Hey

So, should Atheists be punished for not following the word of God when they don't believe he exists or that the Bible is legitimate.

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It is very common for Christians to take an "inclusivist" position. In fact I think it's likely that this is the majority position, since official Catholic and liberal Protestant doctrine are both inclusivist, and survey results show that many members of conservative groups are as well, even if their churches aren't.

This says that God will judge people based on what they know, and people who followed the best that they know will be OK.

This is difficult, because there are several things we need to avoid:

* Salvation is based on good deeds. The problem with this is that if you think of salvation as being based on good deeds, it's too easy for this to turn into legalism, and it's also really easy to convince yourself that you're doing something good when in fact you're not really helping anyone. Jesus was clear that his goal was to regenerate people's hearts, and that good deeds would come from loving God and our neighbor. So inclusivism doesn't quite say that people are justified by doing good. Rather, the idea is that they have really accepted Christ into their hearts, but may think of it in other terms. But someone who is dedicated to doing the best that they know, and shares other Christian characteristics such as acknowledging their own faults and realizing that they don't deserve salvation, may well have been regenerated by Christ.

* All religions or beliefs are equally good. There are plenty of beliefs that are genuinely bad. Inclusivism maintains that Christ is really the only way. It's not that any religion is OK, but that Christ may be able to get to you even if you have some wrong beliefs.

The two major alternatives for Christians are exclusivism and universalism. Exclusivism says that you need to have actual knowing faith in Christ to be saved. Universalism is kind of like inclusivism, but with the addition that eventually God will get to everyone. Normally the thought is that he will do so after death in some cases.

I think you can make a reasonable case for inclusivism from Jesus' own teachings. Universalism is a bit harder. He certainly indicates the hell is a possibility, and it seems to me that at times he assumes some people will go there. But there have been a substantial number of universalists from the earliest days of Christianity. Under CF rules, universalism can only be discussed in the Unorthodox forum.

Birthew said:

Hey man, nice to hear from you, how are things?

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Far out, do you know that is the first time someone has said that to me on this forum? "How are things?" Well it is great speaking generally, I just moved into a new flat, a self-contained studio and work is great too. I've just been assigned a four month job which is a 200k project, so yeah it's good to get something meaty. Whats more is the boss has realized that if we concentrate on just the big jobs then we can change our entire business model to be more efficient and I'm down with that. So the salespersons have been given four months to secure the next major project and they've already got good leads. So I feel God is really blessing us, He's brought together some really good talent and although they aren't all God lovers they are ethical and genuinely nice people (Most kiwis are). Well thanks for asking, I hope you are well too

Birthew said:

Hey

So, should Atheists be punished for not following the word of God when they don't believe he exists or that the Bible is legitimate.

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Punished how and by whom???

The works of God go far beyond our structures of "punishment." The only people who go to hell, are the ones that put themselves there. And by hell, I mean a state of being right here on EARTH.

Mother Natures Son said:

The works of God go far beyond our structures of "punishment." The only people who go to hell, are the ones that put themselves there. And by hell, I mean a state of being right here on EARTH.

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So you're in hell at the moment?

mattyoung said:

So you're in hell at the moment?

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No. Though I have my struggles, I feel I am much closer to the heaven state.

Birthew said:

Yeah i'm good thanks I've also just moved into a new place. I've moved out of home to a place near my uni. I'm living on my own at the momment, so its a bit lonely but i'm trying to get a head start and get reading through my coursebooks early, my housemates are going to join me in september. A 200k project sounds pretty good xD what is it that you do?

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I do websites, but we're beginning to move our focus onto browser apps instead (which is really just a website anyway but with more complexity). Its just too obvious that small website owners are more difficult to satisfy than bigger clients and they become unprofitable very quick. What topics are you studying?

Let's recap:
The only people who go to hell, are the ones that put themselves there (meaning hell). And by hell, I mean a state of being right here on EARTH.(Therefore hell)

By you're own logic everyone on earth is actually in hell, and they've put themselves there.
'Everyone' includes you.
So according to your logic again, it is possible to get from hell to heaven.

cburden said:

Does this go to say that that people like the Dalai Lama who have lived lives dedicated to peace, humility, and compassion with go to hell because he did not accept "God's gift", while a person who, lets say, murders, rapes, or simply has no moral conscience and leads an atrocious life will go to heaven if he/she does accepts His gift?

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The Dalai Lama said publicly that he loves Jesus. It doesn't matter what trademarked 'club' one belongs to. As long as the Dalai Lama is generally aware that he sins from time to time and sincerely repents of those sins he's going to heaven. Simple. The Bible doesn't say 'join the club or die' it says 'accept the grace of the lamb or die'.

If salvation was complicated then the work of the sacrificial lamb Jesus would have been less than perfect!

Birthew said:

I aggree with what your saying, but Christians too have been conditioned from a very young age, children brought up in any religion are. I think it's fair to say that theists and atheists have completely different realities that seem obsurd to one another. No one can proove their reality to the other, I can't proove what you feel is wrong or that god doesn't exist and you can't proove god is real (objectively).

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Yes everyone is pretty much on their own when it comes to figuring out reality but the point of the gospel is that you don't have to worry about discovering the depths of the universe! Just do the best you can.

The reason why the sacrifice of Jesus is deemed perfect is because it makes our salvation perfectly easy. Forget about religion. If you are merely willing to accept that you have done things in your life that you regret and that Jesus died for all your sins (regardless of how strange that may sound in your head) you are going to heaven when you die. Life will still be hard on Earth but you have that assurance of salvation.

Even if you're head says that you are 99% sure that God doesn't exist when you suddenly die in a car crash, the only thing that's going to matter in the end is: are you willing to accept the son?

So who are those who DO NOT accept the son? The ones who don't repent of their sins! Jesus will speak the truth about their lives and they will be so angry with him that they will refuse the free gift of salvation. It's utter insanity because they would rather experience the misery of Hell than accept the truth spoken to them.

You will also hear Christians talk about "having a relationship with Christ". That obviously requires believing in a sure sense but that's more of a gift than a requirement. The relationship is about keeping on the right path towards holiness and being aware of your sins. It's also about having joy on Earth. Not the temporary kind of joy that comes only when you are "having fun" but the kind that persists even in times of extreme duress. Maybe even in times of pure tragedy. The scripture says that they have joy even while mourning.

mattyoung said:

Let's recap:
The only people who go to hell, are the ones that put themselves there (meaning hell). And by hell, I mean a state of being right here on EARTH.(Therefore hell)

By you're own logic everyone on earth is actually in hell, and they've put themselves there.
'Everyone' includes you.
So according to your logic again, it is possible to get from hell to heaven.

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Lol! Not my logic at all. You're interpreting my words to saying earth is hell. Earth itself is NOT hell. It's a stunningly beautiful place that is naturally attuned for happiness.

Let me reiterate that hell is not a physical place, nor is heaven. They are both STATES OF BEING, created within us. With our thoughts, we have the ability to manifest either one of these in our lives, and on a grander scale we all contribute to the overall state of all of us.

Think of the people who "own" this world. All they desire is more power; they are constantly working to expand it. Their love of power is a big example of how we can create this hell. They will never be satisfied and will always want more. The more they have, the more of an Earth-hell will manifest for all of us (which it already has is many places). They could not fathom life without such power; that is the thing that prevents any kind of heaven for themselves, and with their actions, many others.

The great thing is that even when you are being negatively effected by others, you can still avoid "hell" with a positive spirit and the unconditional intention of becoming better, or entering the heaven state.

Really, hell is just a poetic synonym for suffering, and heaven is a synonym for unconditional love for everyone and everything, ever. Attachment to material things, greed, ego, love of power, etc, are all things that CREATE hell/suffering for us, and override the potential love in all of us. That is what these scriptures mean. Not accepting a certain type of view on life will not create these suffering, eg not being "saved," nor will submitting to a certain view create heaven for you.

Consciousness is quite powerful.

Faulty said:

You've broken His law haven't you? You ever lied, stolen anything, lusted after anyone, desired anything another person had that you didn't, ever in your life disobeyed your parents?

Scripture tells us that violating God's law even in a single point, makes one accountable for breaking the whole thing. A person who breaks the law will still be punished regardless if they believe the judge exists or the law is legitimate.

How absurd would that news story be? "In other news, Joe Schmo was released from jail today after being arrested for robbing eight banks in the area. The judge was quoted as saying, 'Mr. Schmo didn't believe the bank robbery laws were legitimate or that I even was in the courtroom. Therefore, we couldn't try him for his crimes.'"

It's completely absurd. You have a Bible, online at least, if not also in print. Don't kid yourself, you're accountable to it.

You were born dead in your sins like the rest of us, but God said that if you seek for Him, you'll find Him. If you haven't found Him, you haven't really looked yet. Unfortunately, some wanting to find God is done with the same enthusiasm as a criminal seeks for a cop.

Turn from your sins and place your trust in what Jesus did for you as your only source of salvation, He became sin for us, but He committed no sin, and took God's wrath directed at us, at you, so that through His sacrifice, you can be forgiven and reconciled to God.

That's it. That's your only hope. There is nothing more important to your entire existance.




Please, find a new denomination, and read the scriptures for yourself. None of that beyond the first sentence is even in there. Your leaders are leading you straight into the hell they deny.

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What he said.

Mother Natures Son said:

Lol! Not my logic at all. You're interpreting my words to saying earth is hell. Earth itself is NOT hell. It's a stunningly beautiful place that is naturally attuned for happiness.

Let me reiterate that hell is not a physical place, nor is heaven. They are both STATES OF BEING, created within us. With our thoughts, we have the ability to manifest either one of these in our lives, and on a grander scale we all contribute to the overall state of all of us.

Think of the people who "own" this world. All they desire is more power; they are constantly working to expand it. Their love of power is a big example of how we can create this hell. They will never be satisfied and will always want more. The more they have, the more of an Earth-hell will manifest for all of us (which it already has is many places). They could not fathom life without such power; that is the thing that prevents any kind of heaven for themselves, and with their actions, many others.

The great thing is that even when you are being negatively effected by others, you can still avoid "hell" with a positive spirit and the unconditional intention of becoming better, or entering the heaven state.

Really, hell is just a poetic synonym for suffering, and heaven is a synonym for unconditional love for everyone and everything, ever. Attachment to material things, greed, ego, love of power, etc, are all things that CREATE hell/suffering for us, and override the potential love in all of us. That is what these scriptures mean. Not accepting a certain type of view on life will not create these suffering, eg not being "saved," nor will submitting to a certain view create heaven for you.

Consciousness is quite powerful.

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Ok, we'll go with that:
You're saying that a positive outlook will get people into heaven. You don't have to be a Christian?

mattyoung said:

So according to your logic again, it is possible to get from hell to heaven.

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Perhaps God reaches out to the people in Hell forever....but they continuously refuse forever.