Should a victim need to exist for their to be a crime?

[lawtonfogle]

Please note, I am talking about a certain subset of crimes which include murder, sexual assault, rape, and physical assault (other crimes may apply to this, but these four cover enough).

So, should the victim need to actually exist. For example, if I murder some video game character, have I committed murder? If in a game (and I know games don't let you do this, but lets assume we have one that did) I raped someone, should I be charged with rape in real life?


Well, considering how many games have you killing people (for better or worse reasons), the immediate answer seems to be "bleep NO!"



But...
Here is the U.S. law:

(c) Nonrequired Element of Offense.— It is not a required element of any offense under this section that the minor depicted actually exist.

United States Code: Title 18,1466A. Obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children | LII / Legal Information Institute

So, in a video game, I can go around killing men women and children, and if the video game was sadistic enough, I could go around raping men and women. But as soon as the video game character that is deemed a child is engaged in a sexual situation, I have committed a crime.

Now, someone who plays a video game and enjoys raping anyone probably need help... but then again, what about people who play video games and enjoying people? Meh, guess I have been conditioned to accept murder in a video game but not rape.

But, it being against the law?

If suddenly we made the same law apply to murder (and I will make the case murdering someone is just as bad as raping them, if not worse), suddenly about every single video gamer, almost every single computer scientist, every single WoW player in the U.S. is guilty of murder. Isn't that... absurd?

So... should the actual victim need to exist in the case of physical/sexual assault, rape, or murder for it to be a crime?

Am I a murderer for playing World of Warcraft and the characters of other players?

If you would, please note if you have at any time either killed or physically assaulted a human (or what appears to be a human) in a video game, or watched one be murdered or physically assaulted in some other form of media (say TV/Movies).

 

[SithDoughnut]

I don't think that there necessarily has to be a direct victim, depending on how you would define victim. For example, driving through a red light should remain a crime, even though no one is actually a victim of it. However, in cases like this, there needs to be a victim. You can't molest someone who doesn't exist. I can't think of any reason to ban things like drawn child pornography unless an actual child was involved. The only other reason to make it a crime is my own emotional reactions, which have no place in lawmaking.

 

[Drathnor]

Hmmm I see your point, I’ve played countless games where enemies “die” in both fictional and real life settings (like playing both The Legend of Zelda and also playing GTA).And of course I’ve seen things on TV were people die(from both extremes, the worst probably being the saw films).
I suppose it all comes down psychology behind why we would watch these things or play these games; it’s not my field of expertise so I’m finding it quite hard to form a response to this post. I suppose we can enjoy these things because we can detach ourselves from the reality of what the situation would be if we were placed in the position of the protagonist of said film or game.

 

[serephim01]

I assume we is talking about Loli yes? I don't like it but it shouldn't be banned since there is no victim. Like Sithdoughnut said, emotions have no place in lawmaking.

Tho if we is talking about WoW, I think I may be a serial killer of genocidal proportions I've farmed so many twilight cultists for my Cenarion Rep I think I may have pushed them into extinction. :3 I've played postal 2, Manhunt, GTA they are all pretty bad but that's the point. To get a reaction. Banning them because there is questionable content is wrong, you might as well start banning movies about serial killers and books too and we all know what censorship does.

 

[Gishin]

WHY DO YOU WANT CHILDREN TO BE RAPED LAWTON?!?!

Of course you don't, but these laws exist to make people feel like their children are protected, even if it serves no actual purpose.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Out of sheer curiousity.

Would this law also apply to say.. orc children? or is it strictly human?

But really in fiction i see nothing that you could that could reasonably be against the law. At best a appeal to emotion and really if we start allowing that we're all doomed cause someone somewhere will take offense no matter what.

 

[serephim01]

Out of sheer curiousity.

Would this law also apply to say.. orc children? or is it strictly human?

But really in fiction i see nothing that you could that could reasonably be against the law. At best a appeal to emotion and really if we start allowing that we're all doomed cause someone somewhere will take offense no matter what.

Sorry I can't resist plugging in this.

High Overlord Saurfang says: So the prodigal son has spoken! Your father's blood runs strong in you, Hellscream. Impatient as always... Impatient and reckless. You rush headlong into all-out war without a thought of the consequences.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Do not speak to me of consequences, old one.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I drank of the same blood your father did, Garrosh. Mannoroth's cursed venom pumped through my veins as well. I drove my weapons into the bodies and minds of my enemies. And while Grom died a glorious death - freeing us all from the blood curse - he could not wipe away the terrible memory of our past. His act could not erase the horrors we committed.
High Overlord Saurfang says: The winter after the curse was lifted, hundreds of veteran orcs like me were lost to despair. Our minds were finally free, yes... Free to relive all of the unthinkable acts that we had performed under the Legion's influence. High Overlord Saurfang nods.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I think it was the sounds of the draenei children that unnerved most of them... You never forget... Have you ever been to Jaggedswine Farm? When the swine are of age for the slaughter... It's that sound. The sound of the swine being killed... It resonates the loudest. Those are hard times for us older veterans.
Garrosh Hellscream says: But surely you cannot think that those children were born into innocence? They would have grown up and taken arms against us! High Overlord Saurfang shakes his head.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I am not speaking solely of the children of our enemies...
High Overlord Saurfang says: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes...
Garrosh Hellscream says: How have you managed to survive for so long, Saurfang? Not fallen victim to your own memories?
High Overlord Saurfang says: I don't eat pork... High Overlord Saurfang spits.

Very little to do with this but I figure since we're kinda on the subject of murder of NPC's.(non playable characters for the mmo newbies)

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Sorry I can't resist plugging in this.

High Overlord Saurfang says: So the prodigal son has spoken! Your father's blood runs strong in you, Hellscream. Impatient as always... Impatient and reckless. You rush headlong into all-out war without a thought of the consequences.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Do not speak to me of consequences, old one.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I drank of the same blood your father did, Garrosh. Mannoroth's cursed venom pumped through my veins as well. I drove my weapons into the bodies and minds of my enemies. And while Grom died a glorious death - freeing us all from the blood curse - he could not wipe away the terrible memory of our past. His act could not erase the horrors we committed.
High Overlord Saurfang says: The winter after the curse was lifted, hundreds of veteran orcs like me were lost to despair. Our minds were finally free, yes... Free to relive all of the unthinkable acts that we had performed under the Legion's influence. High Overlord Saurfang nods.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I think it was the sounds of the draenei children that unnerved most of them... You never forget... Have you ever been to Jaggedswine Farm? When the swine are of age for the slaughter... It's that sound. The sound of the swine being killed... It resonates the loudest. Those are hard times for us older veterans.
Garrosh Hellscream says: But surely you cannot think that those children were born into innocence? They would have grown up and taken arms against us! High Overlord Saurfang shakes his head.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I am not speaking solely of the children of our enemies...
High Overlord Saurfang says: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes...
Garrosh Hellscream says: How have you managed to survive for so long, Saurfang? Not fallen victim to your own memories?
High Overlord Saurfang says: I don't eat pork... High Overlord Saurfang spits.

Very little to do with this but I figure since we're kinda on the subject of murder of NPC's.(non playable characters for the mmo newbies)

Ill forgive you since I never seen this conversation take place and now that pig farmer in the middle of nowhere finally makes sense to me

 

[Mystman]

I wrote a good post about this a while back (if I may say so myself ), but can't find it..

..anyway, the main idea was that for most "murder simulations", there are perfectly "sane" reasons for enjoying the game. Partly because the "killing" is basically ignored while playing the game (like.. in my current Quake Live config, all the enemies look the same and are completely neon green. It doesn't really feel like a murder simulator), and partly because enjoying killing "bad guys" is actually a pretty basic human reaction. See movies like Rambo where the hero guns down hordes of "bad people", and most people just go "yeah!1!!"

The problem with the "raping 10 year old girls"-games is that the vast majority of people who are playing it, will not be playing it for "sane" reasons. And thus they probably need help, as you noted.

 

[lux et lex]

(and I know games don't let you do this, but lets assume we have one that did) I raped someone, should I be charged with rape in real life?

Actually, there is one. RapeLay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But to get back to your question, I don't believe in "digital victims", but I think there are still victimless crimes.

 

[lawtonfogle]

The problem with the "raping 10 year old girls"-games is that the vast majority of people who are playing it, will not be playing it for "sane" reasons. And thus they probably need help, as you noted.

So what about the "murder 10 year old girls"-game?
What about a "rape the bad guys"-game?

Anyways, I think a the biggest issue here is we are socialized to accept digital murder but not digital rape.

 

[lawtonfogle]

But to get back to your question, I don't believe in "digital victims", but I think there are still victimless crimes.

Which is why I wanted to only talk about murder, rape, and a few other crimes. There are other crimes where the existence of the victim may be hard to prove or figure out. For example, it is hard to show the victim of me shooting an assault rifle in the air... except in the rare case the bullet comes down and hits someone. It is the chance of that happening that makes shooting a gun into the air wrong.

 

[yasic]

Heres a fun twist to the argument that punishing bad guys is 'good' while rape is 'bad'.

In the US, it is much easier to have a game pass in stores that has you murdering people by mass, and torturing others (can give you plenty of examples), than to have one in which two consenting adults engage in sexual behavior. Please do tell me how consensual sex is 'bad' while murder is 'good'?

 

[Mystman]

So what about the "murder 10 year old girls"-game?
What about a "rape the bad guys"-game?

Anyways, I think a the biggest issue here is we are socialized to accept digital murder but not digital rape.

I can't think of any games that have murdering "normal" (i.e. not undead, possessed, infected, etc..) 10 year old girls as the objective. I'm sure some of them exist.. and I'd say that anyone who enjoys the virtual killing of 10 year olds (purely for the killing, not as a "gotta do this to win the game" or "hey.. what happens if I press this button.." thing), also needs professional help.

Digital "murder" is very rarely actually about the murdering. Have I killed loads and loads of people in Quake, Half-Life, Hitman, Command & Conquer, The Sims, and even Roller Coaster Tycoon? Sure. Do any of those "murders" point towards me having a larger chance of enjoying murdering an actual person? Well, no, since the motivations for the digital killings and the motivation for an actual killing are completely different. The only one that might come close is killing people in the Sims.. and I only did that like once just to see what happened (the people who always kill their Sims-characters to see them suffer might have some issues )

But from what I know of the digital rape games (haven't looked into them that much -_-), the motivations for playing it are a lot closer to the motivations for raping an actual person. The answer to the "why do you enjoy this?" question is gonna be pretty bad most of the time.

As for the "should playing games like this be a crime?".. it depends on how you look at the justice system. If you think that the justice system should also exist to prevent future crimes, then forcing people who enjoy the rape-games to attend some therapy, or at least evaluating their mind-set in a bit more detail to see if they pose a danger, might not be such a bad idea. If you think that preventive measures aren't the justice system's territory, then criminalizing a true victimless crime is a mistake.

 

[Mystman]

Of course, it's also true that people are much more open to seeing murder/torture, than they are to seeing rape. Dunno whether it's a social thing or a biological thing.

Like.. movies where people are being tortured to death are pretty popular (Hostel, Saw, etc..), and people are actually entertained by that kind of material. But graphic rape scenes are pretty rare, and if they occur almost no one walks away with the feeling of "hey, that was entertaining!"

But that isn't a recent development, as far as I'm aware.. The Romans enjoyed their games in the Colosseum. Public execution were prime entertainment in the middle ages. The Mayans had this thing with public sacrifice IIRC? AFAIK, rape has never been that kind of "public entertainment" (except perhaps amongst small groups of drunken soldiers etc, but that's not really the same as it being socially acceptable to take your wife/children to see the spectacle)

 

[lawtonfogle]

I can't think of any games that have murdering "normal" (i.e. not undead, possessed, infected, etc..) 10 year old girls as the objective. I'm sure some of them exist.. and I'd say that anyone who enjoys the virtual killing of 10 year olds (purely for the killing, not as a "gotta do this to win the game" or "hey.. what happens if I press this button.." thing), also needs professional help.

From what I have heard, Bioshock pushes the line.

But, if it is ok to murder 10 year olds for the XP's, then what about rape purely for the XP's?

Digital "murder" is very rarely actually about the murdering. Have I killed loads and loads of people in Quake, Half-Life, Hitman, Command & Conquer, The Sims, and even Roller Coaster Tycoon? Sure. Do any of those "murders" point towards me having a larger chance of enjoying murdering an actual person? Well, no, since the motivations for the digital killings and the motivation for an actual killing are completely different. The only one that might come close is killing people in the Sims.. and I only did that like once just to see what happened (the people who always kill their Sims-characters to see them suffer might have some issues )

And perhaps digital rape will be the same, completely different. Lets say I made a game where there were infected people, and you could kill them to save the world, but you could also stick some object up their rear end which would kill the thing infecting them (forcefully sticking an object into someone's rear is considered rape in most places, regardless of what that object is, which a few exceptions (rectal thermometers)). I'm pretty sure people would still be majorly against it.

But from what I know of the digital rape games (haven't looked into them that much -_-), the motivations for playing it are a lot closer to the motivations for raping an actual person. The answer to the "why do you enjoy this?" question is gonna be pretty bad most of the time.

So, someone merely needs to make a game where the good guy is forced to rape people, but doesn't do it for the enjoyment of it, but for some greater purpose.

Still, I think a game in which you kill for entertainment is far more accepted than a game in which you have sex for entertainment, even (as someone else pointed out) if the sex is consensual).

As for the "should playing games like this be a crime?".. it depends on how you look at the justice system. If you think that the justice system should also exist to prevent future crimes, then forcing people who enjoy the rape-games to attend some therapy, or at least evaluating their mind-set in a bit more detail to see if they pose a danger, might not be such a bad idea. If you think that preventive measures aren't the justice system's territory, then criminalizing a true victimless crime is a mistake.

But in either view of the justice system, treating them as if they did commit the crime is a mistake, no?

 

[mpok1519]

The law doesn't say killing video game characters is against the law.

 

[lawtonfogle]

The law doesn't say killing video game characters is against the law.

No one was saying it did.

 

[jayem]

So... should the actual victim need to exist in the case of physical/sexual assault, rape, or murder for it to be a crime?

Am I a murderer for playing World of Warcraft and the characters of other players?

To prosecute a charge of murder, rape, or assault there must be a real-life person identifiable as the victim. (An actual body doesn't always have to be found for a murder conviction, but a victim must be identified.) And similarly, to be charged with rape, molestation, or assault, there must be a real-life victim. The crime in possessing virtual child porn isn't child sexual molestation or assault. It's just possession of child porn. But the law defines virtual representations of sexual acts involving children as equivalent to those produced with real children.

Do you really think that that murdering or raping a virtual character would someday be defined as legally equivalent to such acts committed against real persons?

 

[lawtonfogle]

To prosecute a charge of murder, rape, or assault there must be a real-life person identifiable as the victim. (An actual body doesn't always have to be found for a murder conviction, but a victim must be identified.) And similarly, to be charged with rape, molestation, or assault, there must be a real-life victim. The crime in possessing virtual child porn isn't child sexual molestation or assault. It's just possession of child porn. But the law defines virtual representations of sexual acts involving children as equivalent to those produced with real children.

Do you really think that that murdering or raping a virtual character would someday be defined as legally equivalent to such acts committed against real persons?

Child porn is outlawed because it is a form of child abuse, and one can show demonstrable harm to a child from the spread of child pornography. Yet, we also rule images of fictional children illegal as well, thus meaning we are equating the sexual abuse of a real child with the sexual abuse of a fictional child. Do you think it is that far of a step to apply this same logic to murder?