Short question for the proponents of "objective values"

[quatona]

Before we get into the complex discussion whether there are "objective moral values" maybe we could start with something more simple, mundane and down-to-earth, just to get an idea how you use "value" in conjunction with "objective".
Would you like to take a stab on this question:
What´s the objective value of gold?

 

[Colter]

I would say zero, there is no innate "reality response" to gold as a spiritual value.

 

[quatona]

I would say zero, there is no innate "reality response" to gold as a spiritual value.

Thanks for the response! Sorry for being unclear:
I didn´t mean to ask about spiritual value.

 

[Tree of Life]

I'm not quite sure what an objective value is. I think the conception is probably unbiblical.

 

[Ken-1122]

I'm not quite sure what an objective value is. I think the conception is probably unbiblical.

An objective value is a value that can be demonstrated, or proven. To answer the question; I believe the objective value of Gold is approx $1,200.00 per ounce.

K

 

[Tree of Life]

An objective value is a value that can be demonstrated, or proven. To answer the question; I believe the objective value of Gold is approx $1,200.00 per ounce.

K

In this case objective value is fine. Objective value is subject to change based on culture and time?

 

[Ken-1122]

In this case objective value is fine. Objective value is subject to change based on culture and time?

If by value you mean price; yes. In this case when he said the value of Gold I assumed he meant what the price of Gold is valued at

Ken

 

[Aldebaran]

I'm not sure what an objective value is, but usually the value of something is determined by what a person is willing to pay for it, which is determined by how much that person can benefit from it. Let's take gold as an example:

Spot price is around $1200 right now. If someone doesn't believe it's worth that to them, they won't buy it. If enough people thought the same way and didn't buy it, the price would drop because the demand for it was lowered.

If there's a belief that the price will go up, then that belief could raise the price of investors because they will buy it in hopes of making a profit.

I guess "objective value" would be determined by actual use. It is used in electronics, jewelry and other things that sell for a price. If gold's purpose in those things causes them to become more desirable, such as making an electronic item work better, then the value of the gold in it raises the value of the electronic item.

 

[Colter]

An objective value is a value that can be demonstrated, or proven. To answer the question; I believe the objective value of Gold is approx $1,200.00 per ounce.

K

The value of a material commodity like Gold would be a "market value." I thought the context would be related to Plato's defense of values as a derivative of consciousness; a truth, beauty or goodness.

 

[Chesterton]

There is no objective value of gold, just the subjective value assigned to it by a large majority of people, relative to other things.

I prefer the term "external values" when it comes to morality. Human values are rooted in something external to reality, namely God. I think your question should eventually boil down to the "Euthyphro dilemma", to which I believe the correct answer is that God values things because they are valuable.

 

[Tree of Life]

There is no objective value of gold, just the subjective value assigned to it by a large majority of people, relative to other things.

I prefer the term "external values" when it comes to morality. Human values are rooted in something external to reality, namely God. I think your question should eventually boil down to the "Euthyphro dilemma", to which I believe the correct answer is that God values things because they are valuable.

Things are not valuable apart from the evaluation of God.

 

[bhsmte]

Things are not valuable apart from the evaluation of God.

Please elaborate.

 

[juvenissun]

Before we get into the complex discussion whether there are "objective moral values" maybe we could start with something more simple, mundane and down-to-earth, just to get an idea how you use "value" in conjunction with "objective".
Would you like to take a stab on this question:
What´s the objective value of gold?

Rarity.
But, it is not a value, but a property.

Instead, it would be more proper for you to ask: What does the value mean in the term "objective value"? I believe that word does not have an objective meaning.

 

[Tree of Life]

Please elaborate.

Ok.

As a Christian I don't buy into a concept like "objective value" if by objective value we mean things that are somehow valuable apart from the evaluation of any subject - in other words, things that are valuable in themselves.

Sometimes people defend objective values because they think that this is what the Christian worldview requires or because they want for there to be things out there that are really valuable, regardless of our opinions that we ought to pursue and promote.

But I think a concept like objective value almost fails in its own definition. As soon as we begin to define it we see its absurdity.

Others think that because there is nothing out there that's "really valuable" and the only values that exist are subjective - things that we value as an individual or species - that right and wrong are malleable. They can change from person to person and culture to culture. There is no universal standard of right and wrong if there are no objective values. So we can do what we want to do.

This is not the Christian perspective so many Christians have thought that we should defend the notion of objective value but we shouldn't go that route.

So for the Christian, true value is based not in the finite subject (like a person, culture, or even a whole species). Neither is it based in any impersonal object (like a material object or an abstract principle). True value is based in the evaluation of an absolute subject - God himself. God, the creator and sustainer of the world, is also the supreme evaluator of the world. What he calls "good" is good and what he calls "evil" is evil.

Of course, God's evaluation is not arbitrary. Goodness is an attribute of God himself. God is good. Good is that which comes from God and operates according to his design. So God evaluates as good that which is rooted in his own character - which is the ultimate standard of goodness.

So, for the Christian, the ultimate standard of goodness or value is not something impersonal outside of God, neither is it based on the finite subject, but it is rooted in God himself, the only one who is good.

Clear as mud?

 

[bhsmte]

Ok.

As a Christian I don't buy into a concept like "objective value" if by objective value we mean things that are somehow valuable apart from the evaluation of any subject - in other words, things that are valuable in themselves.

Sometimes people defend objective values because they think that this is what the Christian worldview requires or because they want for there to be things out there that are really valuable, regardless of our opinions that we ought to pursue and promote.

But I think a concept like objective value almost fails in its own definition. As soon as we begin to define it we see its absurdity.

Others think that because there is nothing out there that's "really valuable" and the only values that exist are subjective - things that we value as an individual or species - that right and wrong are malleable. They can change from person to person and culture to culture. There is no universal standard of right and wrong if there are no objective values. So we can do what we want to do.

This is not the Christian perspective so many Christians have thought that we should defend the notion of objective value but we shouldn't go that route.

So for the Christian, true value is based not in the finite subject (like a person, culture, or even a whole species). Neither is it based in any impersonal object (like a material object or an abstract principle). True value is based in the evaluation of an absolute subject - God himself. God, the creator and sustainer of the world, is also the supreme evaluator of the world. What he calls "good" is good and what he calls "evil" is evil.

Of course, God's evaluation is not arbitrary. Goodness is an attribute of God himself. God is good. Good is that which comes from God and operates according to his design. So God evaluates as good that which is rooted in his own character - which is the ultimate standard of goodness.

So, for the Christian, the ultimate standard of goodness or value is not something impersonal outside of God, neither is it based on the finite subject, but it is rooted in God himself, the only one who is good.

Clear as mud?

How many Christians do you feel, don't put quite a bit of value on the following?

-Their home
-Their car
-Their valuables

 

[Tree of Life]

How many Christians do you feel, don't put quite a bit of value on the following?

-Their home
-Their car
-Their valuables

We all value these things.

 

[juvenissun]

How many Christians do you feel, don't put quite a bit of value on the following?

-Their home
-Their car
-Their valuables

Subjective values, only.

 

[Ken-1122]

So, for the Christian, the ultimate standard of goodness or value is not something impersonal outside of God, neither is it based on the finite subject, but it is rooted in God himself, the only one who is good.

Clear as mud?

That may be true for the Christian, but for the rest of humanity, your idea of God is not the only one who is good, thus goodness or value IS something outside of your God. Doesn't that make it subjective?

Ken

 

[True Scotsman]

Before we get into the complex discussion whether there are "objective moral values" maybe we could start with something more simple, mundane and down-to-earth, just to get an idea how you use "value" in conjunction with "objective".
Would you like to take a stab on this question:
What´s the objective value of gold?

My definition of an objective value is something in reality in relation to a consciousness, something that one acts to gain or keep. Gold has many uses in technology and beyond that it is the perfect medium of exchange. It is homogeneous, infinitely divisible, rare and portable. It fills a very real human need of storing excess production in an imperishable form which can be traded later for perishable goods. It is the "seed corn" of industrial production and without it or something very similar capitalism would be impossible. That is the objective value of Gold. Gold cannot be valued if it doesn't exist. A gold bar in the mind will not buy a single loaf of bread.

 

[Cearbhall]

I prefer the term "external values" when it comes to morality. Human values are rooted in something external to reality, namely God. I think your question should eventually boil down to the "Euthyphro dilemma", to which I believe the correct answer is that God values things because they are valuable.

Yeah, I don't think believing in objective morality can be equated with the belief that objects have an inherent purpose.