• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Shift on Red Shift

Status
Not open for further replies.

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Building a cosmology requires certain fixed positions from which to start. Genius may proceed from such these positions with enormous creativity and mental muscle. But, as the 20th century attacked the root beliefs and religions of humanity, physics is also questioning its foundations. A cathedral may be beautiful indeed, but on whom is it founded?

Einstein offered us a constant speed of light. Hubble offered proof that distant galaxies are receding from a common center. But, perhaps again, man's reach exceeds his grasp.

One of the first problems with physical constants comes from Tom Von Flandern, who noted that atomic clocks were not keeping time with dynamic time, as measured by movements of the moon. From there, Barry Setterfield studies historic measurements of light speed and showed declining values. Mathematician Alan Montgomery reviewed the data and found the downward trends statitiscally significant and 95% to represent a real trend.

Three sections of text follow. The latter two are "Setterfield Simplified" by Helen Setterfield at http://www.setterfield.org/simplified.html


The following, also by Helen, is "Upheaval in Physics, History of the Light Speed Debate" form Khouse.org:

Quote:
When we walk into a dark room, flip a switch and the light is instantly on, it seems that light has no speed but is somehow infinite - instantly there - and that was the majority opinion of scientists and philosophers until September 1676, when Danish astronomer Olaf Roemer announced to the Paris Academie des Sciences that the anomalous behavior of the eclipse times of Jupiter's inner moon, Io, could be accounted for by a finite speed of light. [2] His work and his report split the scientific community in half, involving strong opinions and discussions for the next fifty years. It was Bradley's independent confirmation of the finite speed of light, published January 1, 1729, which finally ended the opposition. [3] The speed of light was finite-incredibly fast, but finite.
The following question was: "Is the speed of light constant?" Interestingly enough, every time it was measured over the next few hundred years, it seemed to be a little slower than before. This could be explained away, as the first measurements were unbelievably rough compared to the technical accuracy later. It was not that simple, though. When the same person did the same test using the same equipment at a later period in time, the speed was slower. Not much, but slower.
These results kicked off a series of lively debates in the scientific community during the first half of the 20th century. Raymond Birge, highly respected chairman of the physics department at the University of California, Berkeley, had, from 1929 on, established himself as an arbiter of the values of atomic constants. [4] The speed of light is considered an atomic constant. However Birge's recommended values for the speed of light decreased steadily until 1940, when an article written by him, entitled "The General Physical Constants, as of August 1940 with details on the velocity of light only," appeared in Reports on Progress in Physics (Vol. 8, pp.90-100, 1941). Birge began the article saying: "This paper is being written on request - and at this time on request ... a belief in any significant variability of the constants of nature is fatal to the spirit of science, as science is now understood [emphasis his]." These words, from this man, for whatever reason he wrote them, shut down the debate on the speed of light. Birge had previously recognized, as had others, that if the speed of light was changing, it was quite necessary that some of the other "constants" were also changing. This was evidently not to be allowed, whether it was true or not, and so the values for the various constants were declared and that was that. Almost. In the October 1975 issue of Scientific American (p. 120), C.L. Strong questioned whether the speed of light might change with time "as science has failed to get a consistently accurate value." It was just a ripple, but the issue had not quite disappeared.
Partly in order to quell any further doubts about the constancy of the speed of light, in October 1983 the speed of light was declared a universal constant of nature, defined as 299,792.458 kilometers per second, which is often rounded off to the measurement we are more familiar with in the West as 186,000 miles per second.
Birge's paper was published in 1941. Just a year later, Barry Setterfield was born in Australia. In 1979 he was 37 years old. That year he received a book from a friend, a book on astronomical anomalies. It was a large book, and near the end of it there was a section on the speed of light, questioning its constancy. Barry was stunned. Nothing he had read or learned in physics or astronomy had even hinted that there was a question regarding the speed of light. It was a constant, wasn't it? As he read, he learned about the measurements that had been taken years before, and the arguments that had gone on in the scientific literature, and he was fascinated. He figured he could read up on it and wrap up the question in about two weeks; it didn't quite work out that way.
Within a couple of years, one of the creationist organizations had started publishing some of Barry's findings. They were still preliminary, but there was so much more to this than he had thought. In the following years his exploration continued, and he read all the literature he could find. His work caught the attention of a senior research physicist at Stanford Research Institute International (SRI), who then asked him to submit a paper regarding his research. It was to be a white paper, or one that was for the purposes of discussion within the Institute.
Barry teamed up with Trevor Norman of Flinders University in Adelaide, and in 1987 Flinders itself published their paper, "Atomic Constants, Light, and Time." Their math department had checked it and approved it and it was published with the Stanford Research Institute logo as well. What happened next was like something out of a badly written novel. Gerald Aardsma, a man at another creationist organization, got wind of the paper and got a copy of it. Having his own ax to grind on the subject of physics, he called the heads of both Flinders and SRI and asked them if they knew that Setterfield and Norman were [gasp] creationists! SRI was undergoing a massive staff change at the time and since the paper had been published by Flinders, they disavowed it and requested their logo be taken off. Flinders University threatened Trevor Norman with his job and informed Barry Setterfield that he was no longer welcome to use any resources there but the library. Aardsma then published a paper criticizing the Norman-Setterfield statistical use of the data. His paper went out under the auspices of a respected creation institution.
Under attack by both evolutionists and creationists for their work, Norman and Setterfield found themselves writing long articles of defense, which appeared in a number of issues of creation journals. In the meantime, Lambert Dolphin, the physicist at Stanford who had originally requested the paper, teamed up with professional statistician Alan Montgomery to take the proverbial fine-tooth comb through the Norman-Setterfield paper to check the statistics used. Their defense of the paper and the statistical use of the data was then published in a scientific journal, [5] and Montgomery went on to present a public defense at the 1994 International Creation Conference. Neither defense has ever been refuted in any journal or conference. Interestingly enough, later in 1987, after the Norman-Setterfield paper was published, another paper on light speed appeared, written by a Russian, V. S. Troitskii. [6] Troitskii not only postulated that the speed of light had not been constant, but that light speed had originally been about 1010 times faster than now.
Since then, a multitude of papers on cosmology and the speed of light have shown up in journals and on the web. The theories abound as to what is changing, and in relation to what, and what the possible effects are. There is one person who is continuing to work with the data, however. As the storm around the 1987 report settled down, Barry Setterfield got back to work, investigating the data rather than playing around with pure theory.
Meanwhile, halfway around the world from Australia, in Arizona, a respected astronomer named William Tifft was finding something strange going on with the redshift measurements of light from distant galaxies. It had been presumed that the shift toward the red end of the spectrum of light from these distant galaxies was due to a currently expanding universe, and the measurements should be seen as gradually but smoothly increasing as one went through space. That wasn't what Tifft was finding. The measurements weren't smooth. They jumped from one plateau to another. They were quantized, or came in quantities with distinct breaks in between them.
When Tifft published his findings, [7] astronomers were incredulous and dismissive. In the early 1990s in Scotland, two other astronomers decided to prove him wrong once and for all. Guthrie and Napier collected their own data and studied it. They ended up deciding Tifft was right. [8 ] What was going on? Barry Setterfield read the material and studied the data. The universe could not be expanding if the red shift measurements were quantized. Expansion would not occur in fits and starts. So what did the red shift mean? While most others were simply denying the Tifft findings, Barry took a closer look. And it all started to make sense. The data was showing where the truth of the matter was. While many articles continued to be published regarding theoretical cosmologies, with little regard for much of the data available, Barry was more interested in the data.
Yet, his work is not referenced by any of the others. The Stanford paper is just about forgotten, if it was ever known, by the folks in mainstream physics and astronomy. However, not only are the measurements still there, but the red shift data has added much more information, making it possible to calculate the speed of light back to the first moment of creation. So Barry wrote another paper and submitted it to a standard physics journal in 1999. They did not send it to peer review but returned it immediately, saying it was not a timely subject, was of no current interest, and was not substantial enough. (It was over fifty pages long with about a hundred and fifty references to standard physics papers and texts.) So Barry resubmitted it to an astronomy journal. They sent it out to peer review and the report came back that the paper was really interesting but that it really belonged in a physics journal. So, in 2000, he sent it off to another physics journal. They refused it because they did not like one of the references Barry used: a university text on physics. They also disagreed with the model of the atom that Barry used - the standard Bohr model. In August 2001, the paper was updated and submitted to a European peer-reviewed science journal. The editor has expressed interest. We will see what will happen. In the meantime everything continues: Barry Setterfield is giving presentations in different countries, the mainstream physicists and theorists are continuing to publish all manner of theoretical ideas, and the subject of the speed of light has erupted full force back into the scientific literature.
There is a reason that Barry's work is not being referenced by mainstream scientists - or even looked at by most. If Barry is right about what the data are indicating, we are living in a very young universe. This inevitable conclusion will never be accepted by standard science. Evolution requires billions of years.
And there is a reason why the major creation organizations are holding his work at an arm's length as well: they are sinking great amounts of money into trying to prove that radiometric dating procedures are fatally flawed. According to what Barry is seeing, however, they are not basically flawed at all: there is a very good reason why such old dates keep appearing in the test results. The rate of decay of radioactive elements is directly related to the speed of light. When the speed of light was higher, decay rates were faster, and the long ages would be expected to show up. As the speed of light slowed down, so the radioactive decay rates slowed down.
By assuming today's rate of decay has been uniform, the earth and universe look extremely old. Thus, the evolutionists are happy with the time that gives for evolution and the creationists are looking for flaws in the methods used for testing for dates. But if the rates of decay for the different elements have not been the same through time, then that throws both groups off! Here was an "atomic clock" which ran according to atomic processes and, possibly, a different "dynamical" clock, the one we use everyday, which is governed by gravity - the rotation and revolution rates of the earth and moon. Could it be that these two "clocks" were not measuring time the same way? A data analysis suggested this was indeed happening. Tom Van Flandern, with a Ph.D. from Yale in astronomy, specializing in celestial mechanics, and for twenty years (1963-1983) Research Astronomer and Chief of the Celestial Mechanics Branch at the U.S. Naval Observatory in Washington D.C., released the results of some tests showing that the rate of ticking of the atomic clock was measurably slowing down when compared with the "dynamical clock." [9] (Tom Van Flandern was terminated from his work with that institution shortly thereafter, although his work carries a 1984 publication date.)
In recognizing this verified difference between the two different "clocks," it is important to realize that the entire dating system recognized by geology and science in general, saying that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, and the universe somewhere around ten billion years older than that, might be thrown into total disarray. The standard science models cannot deal with that. The standard creation models cannot, at this point, deal with the fact that radiometric dating may be, for the most part, telling the truth on the atomic clock. And, meanwhile, the Hubble spacecraft keeps sending back data which keep slipping into Barry Setterfield's model as though they actually belonged there.
* * *
 

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Note: ICR has attacked this position. Conventional science has attacked this position. More recent C decay theorist have proceeded without even recognizing Setterfield and Norman. Attacks are to be expected. However, if you have a look at setterfield.org, you will note that attacks are handled with a pretty even tone and remarkable grace. That's a pretty good standard.

Alan Montgomery's review of the work is an interesting read, validating the statistical methods.

As some of you know, Helen Setterfield is also a member and may have some time to answer a few question.


A recapitulation of the overall theory is "Setterfield Simplified" appearing on setterfield.org:


When the concept of an expanding universe entered the secular scientific arena, it was ridiculed. It was condescendingly nicknamed the "Big Bang", even though the idea did not include any kind of explosion. It was rejected as being too close to the "silly ideas" of the Bible. Since the Bible was 'clearly' mythology, there was no way the truth of the cosmos could come anywhere near what the Bible said happened.

The Bible does say the universe expanded. But it uses another term for it. In the Bible, God says He stretched the heavens. He says this twelve times. The difference between the idea of the "Big Bang" and the Biblical explanation is that the Big Bang says the expansion continues to this day, whereas the Bible says it was a one time, complete event.

The data used to support the idea that the universe is still expanding has to do with the redshift of light from distant galaxies. In the same way a siren's sound drops its pitch at the point of passing you, the idea is that the further away the observed light source, the more its light has 'dropped' to the red end of the color spectrum. Is this because the object emitting the light, like the fire engine where the siren sound originates, is speeding away from us at a fantastic rate? Or is there another cause for what we see - this red shifting of light from distant objects?

If there is another cause, then is the Bible right when it indicates that the universe is not expanding anymore?

If the universe is expanding, and if this expansion is causing the redshift, then we should be seeing redshift measurements all the way from zero to the farthest measurement seen in a series of smoothly increasing numbers. It should look like a car accelerating along a freeway, going smoothly from entry speed up to the speed limit.

But that is not what we see in the redshift measurements. What we see are a small series of jumps. The measurements are sort of clumped together and then there is a jump, or jerk, to a new set of measurements, with nothing gradual in between.

How strange! Is the universe expanding in jumps and starts? That's hard to cope with. Especially when some of these redshift groupings split right in the middle of some galaxies! Which they do.

If the universe is NOT expanding, what is causing the redshift? And the jumps we see? What is REALLY going on?

Hold that thought.

If you take a container of some sort, and get rid of every atom and particle in it, we have a vacuum, right? Well, yes, but there is still heat energy producing radiation. OK, now turn down the thermostat. To absolute zero. No heat energy left.

Problem: there is still radiation energy which can be measured in your container. A lot of it! Because it is in evidence at zero mark on the Kelvin thermometer - absolute zero, no molecules can move here - it is called the Zero Point Energy, or ZPE for short.

They found a way to measure it. They found a couple of ways to measure it.

Then another problem popped up. These measurements indicated it was increasing. Why? What was going on?

Hold that thought, too.

When we are in school, be it high school physics or college or university, one of the things we NEVER hear is the idea that some of the atomic constants might not be so constant. This absolute 'constancy' is the backbone of a good part of physics today.

It was not always so. Up until 1941, the subject of the varying measurements that were being seen on some of the constants was one of the major topics in the journals concerned with this sort of thing. A number of things were showing unexplained changes. One of them was called Planck's constant. That measured the ZPE. It was increasing. Another one was the speed of light. That was decreasing. An interesting note popped up here: the speed of light MULTIPLIED by Planck's constant was always the same. As one went up the other went down in a precise inverse ratio.

When we got around to being able to measure the mass of an electron, lo and behold, that appeared to be changing, too!

Not only that, both Planck's constant and the mass of the electron are STILL being measured as changing.

What about the speed of light? Well, ever since they decided to measure it by other atomic constants, it has not appeared to be changing at all. But think about it, if you measure one changing constant by a constant that is changing in conjunction with it, you are not going to get a measured change in the first, are you?

So what is going on? Just a series of mistakes where measurements of redshifts and atomic masses and Planck's constant and the speed of light are all concerned? Or is there something affecting all of this together?

The key to all of this appears to be in the ZPE, the Zero Point Energy, and its increase with time. But where is it coming from? What has caused it?

Go back to the beginning - of both this article and of creation. God stretched the universe, or the heavens. Stretch a rubber band. Blow up a balloon and stretch the fabric of it. Both times you have put the energy of your movement into the stretching. Since the energy is not doing anything unless you let it go, it is a sort of 'hidden' energy called potential energy. But let that rubber band go, or don't tie the balloon and let go of it, and all that energy explodes into motion. This energy in motion is called kinetic energy.

Well, God didn't quite let things go, and they didn't all pop back into something tiny, like a collapsed balloon. Instead some of that energy God invested into the universe when He stretched it out was transformed into tiny, tiny (much tinier than electrons) particles called Planck Particle Pairs. Each pair has one positive and one negative member.

Hold that thought for a moment and go fill up your bath tub with water. Easier, just imagine it filled up. Put your palms together and then put them into the water. Pull your palms apart fast and hard. What happens to the water? It begins to spin in a series of small vortices or whirlpools.

Go look at a picture of the galaxies on the net. Here is one:


courtesy of http://classroomclipart.com/cgi-bin.../Galaxies&image=hst_ngc4414_9925.jpg&img=&tt=



Sort of like what the water did, isn't it?

The little Planck Particle Pairs did the same thing. As the heavens were stretching out, they were separated and started whirling about. This separation and whirling by these little tiny charged particles was the origin of the Zero Point Energy. Their activity does not depend on temperature (that's the Zero Point part) or any bits of atomic or subatomic masses (that's the Energy part).

Just like the rubber band or balloon let most of its energy go at once, so did the stretched out heavens. Kazillions of Planck Particle Pairs were formed very rapidly (excuse the technical language there) and began spinning and whirling about. Then things started to settle down a bit. Since most, and then all, of the Planck Particle Pairs had been formed, maybe the Zero Point Energy should have started downgrading a bit.

No. Remember that the Planck Particle Pairs each has one negative and one positive unit? They started to recombine, or flip back together. Not all at once, but bit by bit. And each time one pair slammed back together, a bit of energy was given off. This is the second source of the ZPE, and it is the source that is still going on today.

The strength of the ZPE is measured by something called the Planck's constant. Don't get this mixed up with Planck Particle Pairs. They both carry the name of the very brilliant man for whom these are named, but they are not the same thing. Planck's constant is represented by the letter 'h'. Planck's constant has been measured as increasing right up until 1970 or so, when some decrease in the measurements was noted.

As the ZPE was building through time, matter itself tried to resist the change, just like if you try to push a glass of water across a table it will not move at first and then jerk forward a bit. And, unless you push even harder, the glass will continue to move in jerks across the table. This is because it takes a particular level of energy from you to build up enough to shift the glass.

Atoms are the same way. As the ZPE built up, atoms and their composite particles would resist the change until it could no longer be resisted, then they would react, absorbing that amount of energy change, and so moving to a higher energy state. And every time an atom took up a higher energy state, the atom would emit light that was a little more energetic, or bluer. The red end of the color spectrum is the lower energy level, and the blue end a higher energy level. If the ZPE and the reactions of atoms are the way this describes, then we would expect to see jumps and starts in the redshift measurements as we look out into space (and thus back into time).

In this way, the building ZPE appears to be the 'parent' and the quantized redshift measurements the 'child.'

But the changing ZPE resulted in other changes, too. Remember Einstein's famous equation, E=mc2? 'E' is energy and 'c' is the speed of light. The small 'm' is atomic mass. It is pretty widely known that this equation indicates that energy and mass are interchangeable. If this is hard to understand, think of an atomic bomb, and the immense energy generated by that little bit of mass. That's because, to get that much energy, mathematically you multiply the mass you have by the speed of light, squared.

It makes a lot of energy.

BUT, not all mass explodes into energy! Instead, what we see at the atomic level with Einstein's equation, is that the energy itself is what is constant. It stays the same. But we have measured the mass of the electron as changing! If energy is constant and the mass is changing, that can only mean the speed of light is also changing.

And that is what was discovered through three hundred years of measurements of the speed of light -- up. Up until 1941 when it was decided to simply declare the atomic constants, and in particular the speed of light to be constant, regardless of the data, the data itself showed light speed to be slowing.

Why would it be doing that? Was it 'tired'? That was one theory - that light got tired after awhile and started slowing down. But that is not what was happening.
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
[continuing:]

Remember Einstein's equation? There is a possibility of mass and energy trading places. That does happen for extraordinarily brief nanoseconds of time throughout space. The enormous energy present in the ZPE will cause something called a 'virtual particle' to snap into and then out of existence. In a way, it's energy concentrated to act like a particle. These virtual particles also come in pairs - negative and positive. But they are a lot bigger than the Planck Particle Pairs. Virtual particles are about the size of electrons. But they don't hang around for long.

When the universe was new, there weren't many virtual particles because not much of the expansion energy had yet changed from potential to kinetic, so the amount of ZPE was low. As that situation rapidly changed, and the ZPE built up quickly, the number of virtual particles in any given volume of space at any given time increased dramatically. And each time a virtual particle appeared, it was capable of absorbing a photon of light. But then the virtual particle would snap out of existence and off the photon would go on its way again. As the ZPE built up and the number of virtual particles built up, the number of times any photon of light would get absorbed and then re-emitted on its way to its final destination increased. And each one of those times took a tiny, tiny amount of time. But it did take time. And so, as the universe got older, and the ZPE increased, and virtual particle numbers increased, light itself appeared to slow down between point of origin and destination. Its speed was still the original speed between virtual particles, but with that many absorptions and re-emissions, it was like a runner going over hurdles - the light needed more time to arrive at wherever its destination was.

Just like the rate of increase of the ZPE and the rapid redshift changes at the beginning, the speed of light dropped very rapidly at first. The curve looks like this for all three (the letter 'z' is the redshift measurement):



Is this a Setterfield dream extraordinaire? No. The data is what led to this conclusion.

And there is one more bit of data: time is measured by two different clocks, and they run at different speeds. Our calendar clock is a measure of 'orbital' or 'dynamical' time. It measures the days and months and years by the earth's rotation, and the orbit of the moon around the earth and the earth around the sun. This measurement of time depends on gravity. It is the measure of time man is told to make in Genesis 1:14 by God. It is quite steady.

The other way to measure time is atomically - or the speed at which atomic processes take place. This clock has actually been measured at moving at a speed different from orbital time. In other words, when radiometric dating declares a rock to be a million years old, that does not mean the earth has orbited the sun a million times since the rock was formed. It means that IF atomic processes have always been the same THEN the earth would have been orbiting the sun a million times.

However the ZPE strength affects the speed of atomic processes! It is interesting that in every decay rate equation, we find either the speed of light in the numerator or its opposite, Planck's constant, in the denominator! We know that 'hc' (Planck's Constant multiplied by the speed of light) is a constant. That has been measured and checked numerous times. But that does not require either 'h' or 'c' to be constant. It does require that if one has changed, then the other has, too - but in the opposite direction. And they have. As the speed of light has been measured going down, Planck's Constant has been measured as going up.

And the faster the speed of light (or the lower Planck's Constant) in the past, the faster the radiometric decay rate. So, for instance, if the speed of light were one million times its current speed, then a million atomic years would be measured in the space of one of earth's circuits about the sun.

Two ways of measuring time. Two run rates on two different clocks.

When the correction of atomic dates is made using the redshift/lightspeed curve shown above, we find that both the majority of atomic dating is right in terms of atomic years, and that the Bible is also correct in terms of this being a very young creation.

It's all there in the data.
 
Upvote 0

Deamiter

I just follow Christ.
Nov 10, 2003
5,226
347
Visit site
✟32,525.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Gosh, I don't have time to go through it point by point (later tonight certainly) but my initial reaction is that it's rather simplistic. I learned in school (studying physics) that scientists question the constants all the time -- since then I've seen at least 4 cover-stories in scientific magazines about how constants might not be constant.

The problem with Sutterfield's c measurements is that if c were changing enough that historical measurements could show a change, then our current level of accuracy would ALSO be able to show a change. In essence, the error in older measurements is so much greater than the error in current measurements, that in order for such a trend to be accurate (between the old measurements and the current measurements) we would be able to measure yearly changes in the speed of light.

You've written a TON and it'll take a TON of research to go through it all (and a ton of time just to respond to it all). Is there something specific you'd prefer to focus on?
 
Upvote 0

Deamiter

I just follow Christ.
Nov 10, 2003
5,226
347
Visit site
✟32,525.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
One more quick thing:
hen the correction of atomic dates is made using the redshift/lightspeed curve shown above, we find that both the majority of atomic dating is right in terms of atomic years, and that the Bible is also correct in terms of this being a very young creation.
I very VERY seriously doubt this. I don't think the calculations have ever been done much less published. Can you show this calculation? If it is accurate, it would be extremely significant. If the calculation has never been done, why do you claim it has?
 
Upvote 0

Deamiter

I just follow Christ.
Nov 10, 2003
5,226
347
Visit site
✟32,525.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
busterdog, you haven't responded to my asking for a website or publication with the calculation which shows that the redshift and atomic dating rates are precisely balanced by the changing speed of light. Looking back, apparently the ENTIRE post you made was copied and pasted from Setterfield.org?

I'm not going to give this site much thought at all if it's not even willing to back up such strong statements by showing the calculations! It's a total waste of my time to respond carefully to entire websites -- I might as well simply use Google to find a website that examines the claims and use IT to continue the discussion.

This is a DISCUSSION board -- small quotes to support your position are very useful. Quoting an entire site and adding nothing to it is just lazy (and usually a violation of copyright law).
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Related to the c deca anamoly was the finding that red shifted light arriving from distant galaxies was quantized, or arriving in distinct steps. This would be like hearing the pitch of a receding automobile dropping in whole tones, which would be anamolous.
These werer the findings of Tift, later used in the work of Barry Setterfield.

The red shift problem suggests that simple expansion from a common center is too simple to explain what is happening. The Setterfield model discusses the "stretching" of space, or the heavens. Not coincidentally, this appears to the Scriptural view: the heavens have been stretched. It is the properties of this stretched space that both affect the speed of light and the nature of the quantized shifts.

However, this leaves the "Big Bang" with some significant problems. It also means that 14 billion light years need not be part of the history of the universe.

My suggestion is to focus on the red shift data and what it means for cosmology.

The first three posts are sections of text are taken from ldolphin.org and setterfield.org. Both were written by Helen Setterfield. The first is "Upheaval in Physics: History of the Light-Speed Debate". The second two posts comprise "Setterfield Simplified" taken from Setterfield.org. The first is offered as a preface to the red shift discussion from Setterfield Simplified, but may not be necessary. (Since the quote buttons and other features do not always work on dialup, it appears as regular text.)
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
(Since the quote buttons and other features do not always work on dialup, it appears as regular text. In fact, my computer and connection have been doing this passive-aggressive thing with me all day. So, I am going just go with it the way it is.)

Deamiter's issue with the extrapolation is addressed in http://www.setterfield.org/report/report.html#t21 and probably elsewhere on setterfield.org. For some reason, I can't find the Alan Montgomery paper, which corroborated the 1987 work of Setterfield and Norman.


"THE CURRENT STATE OF THE COSMOS

The quasars supplying the microwave background would appear to be virtually at rest after the Big Bang expansion and before the collapse set in. As the collapse started, the red-shift would be partly offset as any motion towards an observer produces the reverse effect (or blue shift). Between the microwave and the X-ray backgrounds would be a relatively small region of space where the red-shift factor dropped from 10 million down to the quasar value of about 2. That region of space represents the area where the action of L built up the contraction speed of the cosmos to its terminal velocity This would make it difficult to find quasars in that region and to date only relatively few objects are known beyond red-shift 3. This rapidly dropping red-shift over a small distance means that few objects are involved. It also means that there is no effective background radiation in the wavelengths from X-rays to microwaves. Apart from the microwave background, then, the observed red-shift is a net result of c decay coupled with universal contraction

The c data curve indicates that cosmological contraction is virtually at a minimum. This is deduced by the fact that the decay pattern has tapered off to a nearly zero rate of change as evidenced by Table 24. Consequently, one is permitted to speculate as to what will happen next. The form of the decay curve for c or L both allow two possibilities. The exponentially damped motion could taper to a zero rate of change quite quickly and stay there. This is suggested by the Table 24 results. Alternatively, it is also possible that once the minimum is reached, the motion could slowly climb back to a slightly higher equilibrium point. This suggests that, perhaps, a slight universal re-expansion may occur, though it will be a small effect over some time. This option is supported by some values of the relevant constants that were published in 1986 and a value for h in 1987. Before it can be definitely decided, all data must show a consistent trend. Future monitoring of the situation is therefore absolutely essential.

CONCLUDING COMMENTS

When all the best-fit date curves are extrapolated back in atomic time, they each show essentially the same features. This family of curves is illustrated in Figure V. From them, the collapse in the run rate of the atomic clock appears to have started roughly 600 million years ago in atomic time. Up until then the run rate followed a slightly sloping straight line. The rollover to the collapse seems to have been complete about 50 million years ago atomically and the final steep linear collapse set in. These dates correspond to important events in the fossil record. It was about 600 million years ago on the atomic clock that the Cambrian fossils recorded a burst of life geologically. It was also about 50 million years ago, atomically, that the present geological era, the Cenozoic, commenced with its mammal dominance. This report has dealt mainly with physics and astronomy. In the second report, it is hoped to demonstrate that c decay has supplied the mechanism guiding natural selection into some of the changes recorded by these fossils and explore other implications in astronomy, geology and biology."

The foregoing is a portion of the ending summary from http://www.setterfield.org/report/report.html#t21, referring to the tables by which Setterfield analyzed measurements from Roemer forward.

Although I read the Alan Montgomery paper online about a year ago, I don't see it now.

The findings are summarized:

"The speed of light has been measured 163 times by 16 different methods over the past 300 years. However, Australian physicist Barry Setterfield and mathematician Trevor Norman, reexamining the known experimental measurements to date, have suggested a highly controversial discovery: the speed of light appears to have been slowing down!

1657: Roemer 307,600. +/- 5400 km/sec
1875: Harvard 299,921. +/- 13 km/sec
1983: NBS (laser method): 299,792.4358 +/- 0.0003 km/sec

The speed of light is now measured as 299,792.4358 kilometers per second. (6) (This is approximately 186,000 miles/second; or one foot per nanosecond.)

The Canadian mathematician, Alan Montgomery, has reported a computer analysis supporting the Setterfield/Norman results. His model indicates that the decay of velocity of light closely follows a cosecant-squared curve, and has been asymptotic since 1958. If he is correct, the speed of light was 10-30% faster in the time of Christ; twice as fast in the days of Solomon; four times as fast in the days of Abraham, and perhaps more than 10 million times faster prior to 3000 b.c."

http://www.setterfield.org/essays/speedo.html
 
Upvote 0

Deamiter

I just follow Christ.
Nov 10, 2003
5,226
347
Visit site
✟32,525.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Wow. I find it fascinating that as the measurements become more precise, the "decay rate" in Km/s/year goes to zero!

Apparently the change in c was 9.98 Km/s/year in 1740 when the measurement was 300,640, in 1903, we coud measure it to within about 0.5 Km/s and the rate of change was 1.84, but NOW that we can measure it to within 0.0003 Km/s, they find c is only changing by 0.000097 Km/s/year!

So not only has the speed of light been changing, but as we came up with more accurate measurements of the speed of light, that rate of change has gone to zero in just a couple hundred years!

Amazing that now we have the equipment and expertice to actually measure such a change it has "miraculously" stopped changing! Forgive me if I don't throw the last 200 years of established science out the window based on these "findings."

You might note that error ranges given by scientists are not always accurate. If you read a scientific paper, it will give error ranges and note which factors were used to get those ranges. Especially in very early measurments of something when technology is not yet advanced, scientists can only give error bars based on error they know about. Measurments of c in the 1800s were amazing at the tiime, but to trust them to within 13 Km/s as reported is quite a leap of faith!
 
Upvote 0

Deamiter

I just follow Christ.
Nov 10, 2003
5,226
347
Visit site
✟32,525.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Oooh, another interesting tidbit! The decay rate (in the last 100 years) for different atomic elements trends in different directions! At a quick glance, Setterfield's information seems to show that 1/3 of the elements have increasing decay rates while the others have decreasing decay rates!

Now funny how they said above, "we find that both the majority of atomic dating is right in terms of atomic years, and that the Bible is also correct in terms of this being a very young creation." If a "majority" is 2/3 based on trends over the last hundred years... I think I'll wait for a more convincing dataset!

Now if c was decreasing, and thus changing halflives in the process (throwing off dating methods and making things look older than they are) wouldn't ALL or even say 90% be trending slower?

These conclusions are not supported by the data. And I'm late for a dinner, so I'll have to stop by later and read through these pages more carefully. The one I pulled up seems to be just a 10-15 page list of figures with commentary -- a horrible format with utterly unformatted mathematics.

I'm not impressed.
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And I'm late for a dinner, so I'll have to stop by later and read through these pages more carefully.

Then I'll leave the rest of the above alone until you have read it more carefully.

Seems you are eyeballing the data, which is not likely to advance a discussion.

However, I finally found the Alan Montgomery paper checking the statistical methods.

http://www.ldolphin.org/cdkgal.html
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Just eyeballing the science, you would also expect that the several scientist looking at the problem, if they were doing the reckless work of rank amateurs, would find the change in speed of light going in different directions. Several years after the 1987 papers, others agree in a great reduction in light speed.

And, if eyeballing were enough, the point would now be proven.

LIGHT-SPEED AND THE EARLY COSMOS

The issue of light-speed in the early cosmos is one that has received some attention recently in several peer-reviewed journals. Starting in December 1987, the Russian physicist V. S. Troitskii from the Radiophysical Research Institute in Gorky published a twenty-two page analysis in Astrophysics and Space Science regarding the problems cosmologists faced with the early universe. He looked at a possible solution if it was accepted that light-speed continuously decreased over the lifetime of the cosmos, and the associated atomic constants varied synchronously. He suggested that, at the origin of the cosmos, light might have travelled at 1010 times its current speed. He concluded that the cosmos was static and not expanding.

In 1993, J. W. Moffat of the University of Toronto, Canada, had two articles published in the International Journal of Modern Physics D (see also [76]). He suggested that there was a high value for 'c' during the earliest moments of the formation of the cosmos, following which it rapidly dropped to its present value. Then, in January 1999, a paper in Physical Review D by Andreas Albrecht and Joao Magueijo, entitled "A Time Varying Speed Of Light As A Solution To Cosmological Puzzles" received a great deal of attention. These authors demonstrated that a number of serious problems facing cosmologists could be solved by a very high initial speed of light.

Like Moffat before them, Albrecht and Magueijo isolated their high initial light-speed and its proposed dramatic drop to the current speed to a very limited time during the formation of the cosmos. However, in the same issue of Physical Review D there appeared a paper by John D. Barrow, Professor of Mathematical Sciences at the University of Cambridge. He took this concept one step further by proposing that the speed of light has dropped from the value proposed by Albrecht and Magueijo down to its current value over the lifetime of the universe.

An article in New Scientist for July 24, 1999, summarised these proposals in the Editor's introduction. "Call it heresy, but all the big cosmological problems will simply melt away, if you break one rule, says John D. Barrow the rule that says the speed of light never varies." Interestingly, the initial speed of light proposed by Albrecht, Magueijo and Barrow is 1060 times its current speed. In contrast, the redshift data give a far less dramatic result. The most distant object seen in the Hubble Space Telescope has a redshift, 'z', of 14. This indicates light-speed was about 1 x 108 greater than now. At the origin of the cosmos this rises to about 4 x 1011 times the current value of c, more in line with Troitskii's proposal, and considerably more conservative than the Barrow, Albrecht and Magueijo estimate. This lower, more conservative estimate is also in line with the 1987 Norman-Setterfield Report.

http://www.setterfield.org/vacuum.html
 
Upvote 0

Deamiter

I just follow Christ.
Nov 10, 2003
5,226
347
Visit site
✟32,525.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I really wasn't "eyeballing" the data. I looked through many pages of seemingly random graphs and picked two that looked particularly relevant to our discussion.

One showed that measurements of the speed of light were changing in the past but have apparently stopped changing (in direct correlation to our measurement accuracy). The other showed that halflives seem to have been changing (our measurements of them) but not all in the same direction.

Are these not important points that deserve response? Or is it your intention to throw out the work of a scientist that you don't understand and then refuse to back up his conclusions when somebody finds a problem with the data?
 
Upvote 0

HSetterfield

Active Member
Dec 1, 2006
105
5
77
Oregon
Visit site
✟7,750.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you check the decay curve (check the discussion section) you will find the evening out has nothing to do with how finely light speed can be measured. It has to do with the shape of the curve.

Here is a simple explanation. Twelve times God tells us in the Bible He stretched out the heavens. OK. Now, when you stretch a rubber band and let it go, most of the potential energy of the stretching is expended very quickly and then it 'peters out.'

Similarly, most of the potential energy invested in the stretching of the fabric of space was expressed extremely quickly in a very rapid build-up of the Zero Point Energy, which is the parent cause for the speed of light slowing, the redshift, the increase in subatomic masses, and the increase in Planck's Constant. Through time this rate of change has 'petered out' quite significantly so that what we mainly see today is the oscillation of space which is a result of the stretching as well. It is slight, but measureable as you will see that in 1970 we started a slight uphill series of measurements on the speed of light and a downhill on Planck's constant and electron masses.

The references for this may be found at the bottom of the Discussion section if you link onto 'charts.' (I would do it here but I have not posted enough times yet to be allowed to post URL's.

One other point is significant. About 1970 the way of measuring the speed of light changed as well. Today it is being measured via other atomic processes. But, if they are changing synchronously then no change will be registered. It is like taking a piece of elastic, marking it off in sections or measurements, then measuring another piece of elastic by it while you are stretching both together. There will be changes, but they will not register on the first piece of elastic!

I hope that helps.

Helen Setterfield
 
Upvote 0

Deamiter

I just follow Christ.
Nov 10, 2003
5,226
347
Visit site
✟32,525.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you check the decay curve (check the discussion section) you will find the evening out has nothing to do with how finely light speed can be measured. It has to do with the shape of the curve.

Here is a simple explanation. Twelve times God tells us in the Bible He stretched out the heavens. OK. Now, when you stretch a rubber band and let it go, most of the potential energy of the stretching is expended very quickly and then it 'peters out.'

Similarly, most of the potential energy invested in the stretching of the fabric of space was expressed extremely quickly in a very rapid build-up of the Zero Point Energy, which is the parent cause for the speed of light slowing, the redshift, the increase in subatomic masses, and the increase in Planck's Constant. Through time this rate of change has 'petered out' quite significantly so that what we mainly see today is the oscillation of space which is a result of the stretching as well. It is slight, but measureable as you will see that in 1970 we started a slight uphill series of measurements on the speed of light and a downhill on Planck's constant and electron masses.

The references for this may be found at the bottom of the Discussion section if you link onto 'charts.' (I would do it here but I have not posted enough times yet to be allowed to post URL's.

One other point is significant. About 1970 the way of measuring the speed of light changed as well. Today it is being measured via other atomic processes. But, if they are changing synchronously then no change will be registered. It is like taking a piece of elastic, marking it off in sections or measurements, then measuring another piece of elastic by it while you are stretching both together. There will be changes, but they will not register on the first piece of elastic!

I hope that helps.

Helen Setterfield
I did look at the page you mention. I simply find it extremely "convienient" that the rate of change goes to zero in the last couple hundred years. So you claim that the speed of light HAS changed in the past but is only now changing at about 0.000097 Km/s/year and slower -- conveniently too slow to measure?

I also understand what you're saying about the atomic processes. If this is true, it should be a simple matter to construct an experiment and verify the rate of change of c should it not? Have you not attempted to publish such an experiment sometime in the last 30 years? Has ANYBODY attempted to publish such an experiment sometime in the last 30 years? If so, do you find that this measurement disagrees with atomic measurements (as you would expect if the atomic measurements were flawed)? If not, what are you waiting for? Wouldn't this be an extremely simple verification of your hypothesis to the scientific community?
 
Upvote 0

HSetterfield

Active Member
Dec 1, 2006
105
5
77
Oregon
Visit site
✟7,750.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm laughing, I'm afraid. Convenient or inconvenient (the latter for us, for it would be so much easier if there were significant changes now!), that is what has happened. The math is available. The data is available. The changes were discussed and argued about in peer-reviewed scientific journals until 1941 when Birge (the "keeper of the constants" at UC Berkeley) was evidently pressured to declare that any belief in the change in the constants was against the spirit of science!

What 'spirit of science'? Certainly not, in that case, a desire for the truth of what was happening.

I suggest, if you are really interested in this and not just mocking, that you spend the time to check the data yourself and check what Barry has done with it. Important to the discussion is the redshift and the Zero Point Energy, so please do not ignore them. A lot of the questions that have been emailed to us are on the Discussion page.

If you want to argue about this, please get serious about knowing it first.

Thank you.
 
Upvote 0

Deamiter

I just follow Christ.
Nov 10, 2003
5,226
347
Visit site
✟32,525.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm laughing, I'm afraid. Convenient or inconvenient (the latter for us, for it would be so much easier if there were significant changes now!), that is what has happened. The math is available. The data is available. The changes were discussed and argued about in peer-reviewed scientific journals until 1941 when Birge (the "keeper of the constants" at UC Berkeley) was evidently pressured to declare that any belief in the change in the constants was against the spirit of science!

What 'spirit of science'? Certainly not, in that case, a desire for the truth of what was happening.

I suggest, if you are really interested in this and not just mocking, that you spend the time to check the data yourself and check what Barry has done with it. Important to the discussion is the redshift and the Zero Point Energy, so please do not ignore them. A lot of the questions that have been emailed to us are on the Discussion page.

If you want to argue about this, please get serious about knowing it first.

Thank you.
As I said, I did read through the pages on your website, and I read a number of your emails and responses as well.

I do understand both redshift and zero point energy from a standard scientific perspective and although I can't claim to have spent decades researching it, my last 6 years in physics could probably qualify as "serious" about knowing this stuff.

So you ARE claiming that that the speed of light changed in very old (and imprecise) measurments, but that this fact is now impossible to verify because it has stopped changing?

You seem to throw up your hands and say that since scientists have measured c using atomic methods since the 1970s there's no way to get data since then. Have you seriously not ATTEMPTED to measure the speed of light in a way that you would accept as accurate?

Since you claim that current measurements are inaccurate, it seems that it would be simple to show a discrepancy between YOUR measurement of c and current atomic measurements of c.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.