Shavuot - Was Peter correct?

[Lulav]

For Messianic and Christian Discussion

I've been doing a lot of study on Shavuot (guess why? ) and I've been reading the book of Acts and asking around on some of the other forums on here and have come up with some questions I wonder if anyone else has.

In Jewish understanding and tradition we believe that Shavuot represents the giving of the Torah/ketubah at Mt Sinai. This was in the third month since leaving Egypt so would be in Sivan as Shavuot is today.

1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
​

When they first arrived Moses it seems by the text went immediately up to the L-RD and the L-RD told him what to speak to the people. It consisted of 5 things.

First his preamble was to tell them, or remind them how he had dealt with the Egyptians for them (he fought for release of his bride) and brought them to himself on that mountain 'on Eagles wings'.

Then the reason for this:

1. If you obey my voice and
2. Keep my covenant
3. Then you shall be a special treasure to me above all people on earth
4. And you will be to me a Kingdom of Priests
5. and a Holy nation

Then he ordered Moses to take this message of betrothal to the people and see what they said. It was not a command, but a request.

" These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

​

So Moses does as he is told, he comes back down from the mountain with the words of the 'Bride Groom' and tell all these words to the elders and they in turn take it out amongst all the people.

The people hear the 'proposal' and give their reply to be taken back to HaShem:

"Then all the people answered together and said, "All that the Lord has spoken we will do." So Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord"

​

They were in full agreement, or another way to say this, is they were of ONE accord. So Moses takes this reply back up to G-d. So then the L-RD tells Moses that he will come to them in a thick cloud so that the people themselves will hear the voice of G-d and they will believe Moses (later on when he tells them these are the terms).
Then he tells Moses to go and consecrate or sanctify the people, both that day and the next. Setting them apart for the third day. Also Moses is given a task to set boundaries so that the people and animals did not touch the mountain. Moses also adds that they are not to come near their wives.

So there were three things they were to do in order for this ceremony

1. Moses was to sanctify them
2. They were to Wash their clothes
3. Moses was to set up boundary markers that they were not allowed to cross

And Moses it seems added a 4th, the men were not to engage in marital relations.

They were to gather up around the base of the mountain when they heard the Trumpet or shofar sound.

When the trumpet did sound in the morning Moses lead them to the foot of the mountain to meet with the L-RD. There was thunder and lightening and the mountain was said to be smoking because the L-RD descended upon it on fire.

16 Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain; and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled.
​

After this we see Moses and Aaron going up to meet with the L-RD where he spoke the ten words because the people were afraid, but they had hear him speak so they knew the L-RD was speaking to them, not just Moses making it up. So Moses and Aaron went up and the L-RD spoke to them the ten commandments. Right after this he reiterates to them to not make any idols to worship or to make a hewn altar to sacrifice to him on.


Afterward Moses went up and got this covenant/Ketubah and later went up and wrote down all the words the L_RD gave him that fell under those headings.

But we have plenty of words from the prophets that tell us how again and again Israel turned away from following the terms of her wedding contract and broke her wedding vows. It had gone on long enough so the L-RD brought upon them the curses that were in the Torah that he said he would do if they didn't keep it. He revealed this through the priest and prophet Jeremiah. He also revealed how much later his wife could return to him in holiness and be able to keep the covenant with him. We read this in Jeremiah 31:31

They were punished as a whole nation, the good with the bad but now he says he will deal with them individually:

29 In those days they will say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge . 30 But every one will die for his own guilt: every man that eats the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge .
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But then he tells them:

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
​

That was the old marriage contract, and here is the new one. The terms of the contract aren't new, but the way it is implemented is what is new.

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
​

Our Savior Messiah Yeshua told us on the night before his sacrifice that the cup they were drinking was the blood of the new covenant. Which ties it not only into Passover but also into the cup that is drank upon entering into a marriage covenant.

We see that Pentecost or Shavuot that year was not just about the pouring out of the Holy Spirit as Yeshua did that in a private manner with the 11 before he ascended to the Heavenly temple. This I believe he was transferring the power to judge rigteously as he concludes this with judgment about forgiving sins.

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the LORD. 21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
​

Side line: Now there were only 10 there that day, Judah was no longer with them and Thomas was not among them, was Thomas a Benjamite? It took a full week before Thomas believe he has been resurrected from the dead, for that was how long it was before Yeshua came to them again. Significant? Were the 10 representative of Israels ten tribes? Was Mattathias from the tribe of Judah and later brought in right before Shavuot? Just some things to mull over.

Now back to Shavuot.

They are told to wait there by Yeshua upon the day of his ascension (the fifth day of the week) for the promise from the Father:

He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.​

But what promise was this? I believe it was the promise of Jeremiah 31 of the New Covenant.

Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost fully came, (in the morning) they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house (temple) where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.

To me I see a great similarity here in what happened 1500 years before at the base of the mountain, after that very first Passover.

It was the morning
They were all together in one place
A violent 'natural' phenomenon happens
Fire is seen

Then something different happens which is in accord with Jeremiah 31

But every one will die for his own guilt:

This is from verse Jer 31:30 right before he tells how he will accomplish this. That he will no longer be punishing as a nation or atoning as a nation but each individual is responsible for their own guilt. (Yeshua was both the Passover Lamb and the goat of Atonement) Now we see the fire separates from one to individually, showing the cleansing of each one, separately even though they are all of Israel.

But Peter does not mention Jeremiah 31, instead he mentions Joel 2 which in context speaks of the end of days. He is saying that what they are seeing is the fulfillment of this prophecy.

These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 " 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the L-RD. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the L-RD will be saved.'
​

I personally don't see how what happened that day fulfilled this. I see more of Jeremiah 31 :31 being fulfilled.

Now Christianity claims that they took this day as their own and don't celebrate it as the original meaning but as the day the 'church' was formed. Yet G-d called out his Ekklesia in the wilderness and in the last times he called out to her again, but this time like I said above, with the same Ketubah but with a different means to implement it. I believe that is what happened that day with the 120 and with those who believed that were there as is written in the commandment for all men to appear before the L-RD Passover, Shavuot and Sukkot. This implementing of the New Covenant was with those who were in the 'old' or trying to do it the old way.

Or was the writing upon the hearts not done then and is still to come, were his laws not put in our mind or is that still to come as well?
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So what happened? And when do you think it will be fixed?

​

 

[visionary]

Nicely put together... I can see what you are saying... and I think it is on the right track.

 

[Lulav]

thanks!

What can you add Vis?

 

[SGM4HIM]

Why do we have to place Joel vs Jeremiah and ask if Peter was correct?

Joel: 17 " 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."

When I read the book of Acts, I see the Holy Spirit coming very strongly on those that listened to Yeshua's advice. Women also took an active role in this movement. Later on Gentiles were affected the same way.

I agree with you as far a Jeremiah's prophecy are concerned but Peter chose Joel to make a specific point.

 

[anisavta]

I'm sure he knew what he was talking about considering he lived in the era, knew the mindset of the people and knew the history of his own people better than we do today.
I think our speculations sometimes make G~d laugh. Especially when we see things 2000 years back and Peter was living the moment.

 

[Tishri1]

excellent thread

how I wish the Church would gather on this day

 

[Lulav]

Why do we have to place Joel vs Jeremiah and ask if Peter was correct?

Joel: 17 " 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."

When I read the book of Acts, I see the Holy Spirit coming very strongly on those that listened to Yeshua's advice. Women also took an active role in this movement. Later on Gentiles were affected the same way.

I agree with you as far a Jeremiah's prophecy are concerned but Peter chose Joel to make a specific point.

Hi SGM, I didn't think that was what I was doing ( Joel vs Jeremiah). I mainly am wondering about this since Peter quoted it all:

These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: "


'17 In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the L-RD. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the L-RD will be saved.'

I don't see what I've highlighted as happening that day/ If he had only quoted verses 17 and 18 then I could see it, but it quoted verses 19 and 20.

Yeshua one Shabbat went in and read from the scroll of Isaiah, but he left off a part.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up : and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read . 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written , 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted * , to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised , 19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down .
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It is noted and noticed by many that he did not complete this prophecy, from Isaiah 61 which deals with the Yeshua's coming but also the ;day of vengence of our G-d. Very similar language at that from Joel verses 19 and 20. If Yeshua left off this part because he was only fulfilling a part of the prophecy, then I don't see why Peter included it as that did not happen then, nor has it happened since.

61:1 The Spirit of the Lord G-D is upon me; because the L-RD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted * , to proclaim liberty to the captives , and the opening of the prison to them that are bound ; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the L-RD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to givebeauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the L-RD, that he might be glorified unto them .

So I was basically wondering why Peter choose to use Joel and to use it in full (which was not what was happening or has yet, as I've pointed out) and not made any mention of Jeremiah 31:31? He is specific to tell those present that

"6 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel"

'This' meaning what they were witnessing, but what they were witnessing was this part only:

'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."

As you quoted, but that was not the full of what Peter said they were witnessing, do you see the difference I am speaking about?

Now this could be a mis-speak on the part of Peter or Luke, who wasn't present, could have instead of writing down that first part like you quoted, had been told that Peter spoke of what was prophesied in Joel that happened that day and included more than should have been.

 

[Lulav]

I'm sure he knew what he was talking about considering he lived in the era, knew the mindset of the people and knew the history of his own people better than we do today.
I think our speculations sometimes make G~d laugh. Especially when we see things 2000 years back and Peter was living the moment.

Well I don't think HaShem has any problem with us discerning his word, in fact we are told in the Torah to make sure what we are told is really from him. And as Jews we are always asking questions, no? At least I am, I don't like to stay stagnant.

As far at Peter is concerned he was a man, and not infallible was he? After all did he not know the scriptures and yet did not want Yeshua to die? Peter is like us all, sometimes we see from a human perspective and not a divine one.

But he turned , and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
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Peter did this many times, he denied him, he left him at the cross alone and much more. Knowing the Tenack and the history and the era and the 'mindset' (not sure how he knew that one) did not help him out in all these cases I just mentioned did it?

If I make G-d laugh, Great! Mazel Tov to me! Better than breaking his heart, true?

But he knows what we have been given to go on and I for one, think it pleases him to delve deeply into the words we have from that time and search for the truth.

 

[SGM4HIM]

Lulav,
You bring up many good points to ponder!

 

[ARBITER01]

Section you posted,..

Our Savior Messiah Yeshua told us on the night before his sacrifice that the cup they were drinking was the blood of the new covenant. Which ties it not only into Passover but also into the cup that is drank upon entering into a marriage covenant.

We see that Pentecost or Shavuot that year was not just about the pouring out of the Holy Spirit as Yeshua did that in a private manner with the 11 before he ascended to the Heavenly temple. This I believe he was transferring the power to judge rigteously as he concludes this with judgment about forgiving sins.

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the LORD. 21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
​

Side line: Now there were only 10 there that day, Judah was no longer with them and Thomas was not among them, was Thomas a Benjamite? It took a full week before Thomas believe he has been resurrected from the dead, for that was how long it was before Yeshua came to them again. Significant? Were the 10 representative of Israels ten tribes? Was Mattathias from the tribe of Judah and later brought in right before Shavuot? Just some things to mull over.

Jesus only encouraged them to receive The Holy Spirit, He was not seated upon the throne as our high priest to act in that capacity yet, and we see Peter state it once The Holy Spirit arrives,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

The start of the new covenant was at acts 2, not before it. People get that section of John mixed up continually.

 

[visionary]

Section you posted,..



Jesus only encouraged them to receive The Holy Spirit, He was not seated upon the throne as our high priest to act in that capacity yet, and we see Peter state it once The Holy Spirit arrives,..



The start of the new covenant was at acts 2, not before it. People get that section of John mixed up continually.

I am not sure I follow on this new covenant in Acts 2 that you see.. could you explain it further.

 

[ARBITER01]

I am not sure I follow on this new covenant in Acts 2 that you see.. could you explain it further.

Quite simple, Jesus was not seated as our high priest yet to give anything out to anyone, not until over in acts 2 do we see The Holy Spirit poured out for the people. That was when everyone received their born again experience, not before that.

It is in acts 2 when the 120 were immersed in The Holy Spirit and cleansed of their sins, not before that.

 

[Lulav]

An interesting fact:

The word used in John 20


22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit

This was no suggestion, this was no encouraging them to do so, he was telling them what he was giving them. The word is 'Emphusao' and it means the breath of G-d. This is not just the Holy Spirit, this is the creative force used only one other time in the Bible, in the Septuagint in Genesis 2:7 where G-d breathed into the lifeless clay body of Adam and turned him into a living being. If there is any time of showing the human regeneration, it is right here, with Yeshua doing it first hand.

His 'church' was already formed, it did not begin on Shavuot/Pentecost, and he was fully glorified, he had already been up to heaven and come back down again. Just a few verses before 22 when he breathed on them the true breath of life he told Mary of Magdala this:

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say , Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


​

As far as this part you said:It is in acts 2 when the 120 were immersed in The Holy Spirit and cleansed of their sins, not before that.


Yet he tells the 10 this after he breathes on them: (Receive ye the Holy Ghost 23 Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained..............

They received their power from on high, He was that power from 'on high'. And gave it directly to them. The 120 were disciples, these were his chosen Apostles.

 

[ARBITER01]

An interesting fact:

The word used in John 20


22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit

This was no suggestion, this was no encouraging them to do so, he was telling them what he was giving them. The word is 'Emphusao' and it means the breath of G-d. This is not just the Holy Spirit, this is the creative force used only one other time in the Bible, in the Septuagint in Genesis 2:7 where G-d breathed into the lifeless clay body of Adam and turned him into a living being. If there is any time of showing the human regeneration, it is right here, with Yeshua doing it first hand.

His 'church' was already formed, it did not begin on Shavuot/Pentecost, and he was fully glorified, he had already been up to heaven and come back down again. Just a few verses before 22 when he breathed on them the true breath of life he told Mary of Magdala this:

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say , Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


​

As far as this part you said:It is in acts 2 when the 120 were immersed in The Holy Spirit and cleansed of their sins, not before that.


Yet he tells the 10 this after he breathes on them: (Receive ye the Holy Ghost 23 Whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained..............

They received their power from on high, He was that power from 'on high'. And gave it directly to them. The 120 were disciples, these were his chosen Apostles.

Unfortunately only 10 supposedly received it right?

That dog won't hunt.

Sorry but they were not immersed in The Holy Spirit prior to acts 2. IF they had been, then there would have been no need for them dipped again. It would have been redundant since they would have already been filled and sealed with The Holy Spirit.

On top of this, you are completely and absolutely missing what Peter said here,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

Until Jesus received the power to grant The Holy Spirit to folks, no one received Him. Peter is quite clear here, hence why I pointed to Jesus being high priest first.

Word definitions in this area do not ascribe doctrine, the sequence of events does. Until Jesus was seated in heaven, no one received The Holy Spirit from Him.

 

[Lulav]

Unfortunately only 10 supposedly received it right?

That dog won't hunt.

Sorry but they were not immersed in The Holy Spirit prior to acts 2. IF they had been, then there would have been no need for them dipped again. It would have been redundant since they would have already been filled and sealed with The Holy Spirit.

On top of this, you are completely and absolutely missing what Peter said here,..

Until Jesus received the power to grant The Holy Spirit to folks, no one received Him. Peter is quite clear here, hence why I pointed to Jesus being high priest first.

Word definitions in this area do not ascribe doctrine, the sequence of events does. Until Jesus was seated in heaven, no one received The Holy Spirit from Him.

I'm sorry you think I am not making any sense but could it be you are the one not understanding? I don't see your problem with the 10. Judas was gone and Thomas is specifically said to not be present.

I don't see where you are arguing from, you state with absolute assuredness that they didn't receive the Holy Spirit not until Shavuot. You only back this up by saying there would be no need for them to be 'dipped again'? I really don't know what you mean by that, this was not an immersion. What happened in Acts 2 happened to 120. That does not eliminate that it happened to the 10 before then.

And no, I am not "completely and absolutely missing what Peter said here"

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

When do you propose exactly when he received this? You seem to think he received it after his second ascension. I assert that he received it on his first ascension.


Notice this:

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost

Really not translated well, the 'Peace be unto you', in Hebrew is 'Shalom Alecheim' this has many meanings but in this case since he already said it before in verse 19 and it would be taken then as the traditional greeting of 'Hello', saying it the second time has special meaning.

In Isaiah he is referred to as the 'Sar Shalom', the Prince of Peace, and only a kind of peace that he can bring, an inward one that no other human can impart. So after he gives them the traditional greeting he now says it again, immediately preceding his breathing on him.

May Peace be upon you, as my Father hath sent me (he has just returned from heaven) so I send you.

Now this looks like he is just telling them that the Father sent him into the world and now he is sending them into the world to preach about the kingdom. But he follows this with 'Receive the Holy Spirit'.

It doesn't make much sense does it? So lets look at that again, in the Greek.

εἶπεν οὖν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς πάλιν· εἰρήνη ὑμῖν· καθὼς ἀπέσταλκεν με ὁ πατήρ, καγὼ πέμπω ὑμᾶς.

See those two words? They are the ones translated as 'Sent' and 'send'. But they are not the same in Greek. The first one:

'as my Father hath sent me'

​

The word is: Apostello it has the same word origin or root as the word we have for Apostle- Apostolos.

Now the second one 'send' is not the same root word, it is the second word highlighted in red, and is 'Pempo'. It can mean to send, but not in the same way as apostello. The best way to explain this is to show you where else it is used. and you may be surprised.

12 And all the devils besought him, saying , Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

​

See the word can also mean:

1. to bid a thing to be carried to one
2. to send (thrust or insert) a thing into another

And being this is used preceding 'Receive the Holy Spirit'

'even so send I you. ( And when he had said this), he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost'

​

I believe that the definition '2' fits this perfectly as this is a spiritual 'sending' as was the sending of the spirits of the demons into the swine, it is a spiritual act happening, not a physical.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm sorry you think I am not making any sense but could it be you are the one not understanding? I don't see your problem with the 10. Judas was gone and Thomas is specifically said to not be present.

I don't see where you are arguing from, you state with absolute assuredness that they didn't receive the Holy Spirit not until Shavuot. You only back this up by saying there would be no need for them to be 'dipped again'? I really don't know what you mean by that, this was not an immersion. What happened in Acts 2 happened to 120. That does not eliminate that it happened to the 10 before then.

And no, I am not "completely and absolutely missing what Peter said here"

When do you propose exactly when he received this? You seem to think he received it after his second ascension. I assert that he received it on his first ascension.


Notice this:

Really not translated well, the 'Peace be unto you', in Hebrew is 'Shalom Alecheim' this has many meanings but in this case since he already said it before in verse 19 and it would be taken then as the traditional greeting of 'Hello', saying it the second time has special meaning.

In Isaiah he is referred to as the 'Sar Shalom', the Prince of Peace, and only a kind of peace that he can bring, an inward one that no other human can impart. So after he gives them the traditional greeting he now says it again, immediately preceding his breathing on him.

May Peace be upon you, as my Father hath sent me (he has just returned from heaven) so I send you.

Now this looks like he is just telling them that the Father sent him into the world and now he is sending them into the world to preach about the kingdom. But he follows this with 'Receive the Holy Spirit'.

It doesn't make much sense does it? So lets look at that again, in the Greek.

εἶπεν οὖν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς πάλιν· εἰρήνη ὑμῖν· καθὼς ἀπέσταλκεν με ὁ πατήρ, καγὼ πέμπω ὑμᾶς.

See those two words? They are the ones translated as 'Sent' and 'send'. But they are not the same in Greek. The first one:

'as my Father hath sent me'

​

The word is: Apostello it has the same word origin or root as the word we have for Apostle- Apostolos.

Now the second one 'send' is not the same root word, it is the second word highlighted in red, and is 'Pempo'. It can mean to send, but not in the same way as apostello. The best way to explain this is to show you where else it is used. and you may be surprised.

12 And all the devils besought him, saying , Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

​

See the word can also mean:

1. to bid a thing to be carried to one
2. to send (thrust or insert) a thing into another

And being this is used preceding 'Receive the Holy Spirit'

'even so send I you. ( And when he had said this), he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost'

​

I believe that the definition '2' fits this perfectly as this is a spiritual 'sending' as was the sending of the spirits of the demons into the swine, it is a spiritual act happening, not a physical.

You're sort of running over my whole point here with unneeded things.

Jesus was unable to give out The Holy Spirit and His gifts to anyone until He was seated in heaven as our high priest, that's why I quoted Peter's statement,...

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

We see the writer of Hebrews making this point also,..

Heb 9:24 For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us:
Heb 9:25 nor yet that he should offer himself often; as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own;
Heb 9:26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Only then did He start putting away sin from His own when He was seated as our high priest.

 

[Lulav]

Perhaps we can understand each other if you give me your understanding of this verse?

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

 

[ARBITER01]

Perhaps we can understand each other if you give me your understanding of this verse?

Ok,... it starts here with Jesus,..

Act 1:4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me:
Act 1:5 For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

This baptism/immersion/cleansing/dipping of the 120 was going to be the start of the church. That why Paul was able to say,..

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.

This Spiritual baptism only happened when Jesus received the promise from The Father as He said He would, as I quoted Peter,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

By saying that 10 of the apostles had already received this baptism of The Spirit before Jesus received the promise of Him from The Father, we therefore create contradictions for ourselves in scripture.

 

[Lulav]

Ok,... it starts here with Jesus,..



This baptism/immersion/cleansing/dipping of the 120 was going to be the start of the church. That why Paul was able to say,..

It started way before that, in the wilderness at the foot of the mountain. G-d/Yeshua only has one bride.

This Spiritual baptism only happened when Jesus received the promise from The Father as He said He would, as I quoted Peter,..

John who was filled with the Holy Spirit since before his birth said this:

And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending , and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
​

By saying that 10 of the apostles had already received this baptism of The Spirit before Jesus received the promise of Him from The Father, we therefore create contradictions for ourselves in scripture.

Again, where is it explicit that he could not pass this on to them until after 40 days? He ascended into heaven before he went to see them the first time after his resurrection.

Again the word he uses is the same word used in Genesis 2:7 where he (G-d) breathed into Adam the breath of life. This is what he gave them. It was not the Spirit of Truth called the comforter. But a baptism or filling of new life.

 

[visionary]

If Yeshua said.. "receive" is He not giving? If He is giving what is it if it is not what He says it is?