Sex, When Is It Right?

[nomad]

What does God really say about sex?  When is it wrong and why?

Merely quoting scripture to these questions isn't going to be good enough, you must give reason.

Father be with us in this most crucial discussion, give us open hearts and minds to what you would have for us to learn on this subject.  Guide us in our responses so that we really come to know what you would have us to know.

In the name of Your Son.

 

[Memory's Flame]

After many late nights talking with God, my old church pastor, my mom and my boyfriend I've decided that sex is right when you are deeply in love.

When you have no doubt that this person is the one person you will spend the rest of your life with. When you can openly share all your thoughts and dreams with this person.

I, unfortunatly, have no exact scripture to quote here...

 

[OracleX]

First lets get the definitions out of the way.

Main Entry: for·ni·ca·tion
Date: 14th century
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other -- compare ADULTERY

Main Entry: adul·tery
Date: 15th century
: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband; also : an act of adultery

Main Entry: cov·e·nant
Date: 14th century
1 : a usually formal, solemn, and binding agreement
2 b : a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action b : the common-law action to recover damages for breach of such a contract

Now that you understand that fornication is between two persons not married and that adultery is also done with someone that you are not married to. Here are some scriptures that are very clear that these are not good things and are sin and despised by God.

Matthew 15:18-20
But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

Exodus 20:14 & Deuteronomy 5:18
"You shall not commit adultery."

Proverbs 6:32
"The one who commits adultery with a woman is lacking sense; He who would destroy himself does it."

Hosea 4:1,2
"Listen to the word of the LORD, O sons of Israel, For the LORD has a case against the inhabitants of the land, Because there is no faithfulness or kindness Or knowledge of God in the land. There is swearing, deception, murder, stealing and adultery. They employ violence, so that bloodshed follows bloodshed."

Matthew 5:28
"but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

1 Corinthians 7:9
"But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

We could go on an on with more verses but I think that this is clear enough. Fornication is sin. Fornication is sexual relations with someone outside of marriage. Adultery is sin. Lusting for anyone outside of marriage is sin. There is also the story of Jesus with the woman at the well in John 4.

John 4:17,18 “The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You have correctly said, 'I have no husband'; for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly."

Jesus says very clearly here that the person that she is living with is not her husband. She is living with him and that does not constitute a marriage.

As far as marriage goes, the Bible is not very clear or specific on what acts need to be done to be married. However, just as the Bible does not say ‘though shalt not listen to rock music,’ you can gather by looking at scripture and the character of God that it is not right. Marriage is the same. There are many verses that speak of marriage but do not speak to that acts that made the two married. But again, taking scripture as a whole and the character of God, we can come to some conclusions about marriage.

Weddings are public events
The Bible talks of weddings and how it was public event where people are invited to witness the covenant between the two getting married.


Matthew 22:1-13 is a parable that Jesus tells of a wedding. People are invited, it is an event with many witnesses.

John 2:1-12 Jesus is at a wedding because He was invited to it along with many others.

Ruth 4:10 Ruth is purchased and is taken as the wife as Boaz in with presence of many witnesses.


There are other passages as well but as you can see, weddings we events that people were invited to and were celebrated things. The taking of a wife was something that there were witnesses to. There are verses that talk of weddings being public events where witnesses gather together. What I was not able to find was verses that said that weddings were secret or hidden or that they just happened in peoples heart. There are passages that don’t give detail as to what happened but the ones that do, they state a public event and witnesses.

Another way to look at this is that in the Bible marriage was binding. A married man or woman just couldn’t walk away from a marriage. They were binded by the covenant that they made when they got married. Here is an example of where one is bond to the covenant of marriage.
Malachi 2:14 “Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.”
Here it talks not about people being witness but God. It also says that there is a covenant between a husband and a wife. Going back to the definition of covenant it is a binding agreement. Also Deuteronomy 24:1,3 talks about a certificate of divorce. Why would you need a certificate of it was never a binding agreement in the first place? Matthew 5:21 states that if anyone sends away his wife that they must send them with a certificate of divorce. Again why bother if there was not a binding agreement? Why all the paperwork? Note that it is a piece of paper, a certificate. It is officially dissolving the marriage agreements between two people. If there is a certificate of divorce that makes the dissolving of a marriage official, wouldn’t it make sense that there is a certificate or a piece of paper making it official between them in the first place? If you are just living with someone, do you have this certificate? If something were to happen and you walked away, would you have a divorce certificate. No, because you we never married in the first place.

If you add it all up you get that marriage is a binding agreement that is witnessed by others and God that has a paper trail. We also see that in most of the references that it is a public event where people are invited and it is a ‘feast.’ So living together before marriage and having sex and loving each other with all your heart does not make you married. And since you are not married then what you are doing is fornication and adultery which is sinning against God.

 

[OracleX]

More to follow - I have to put my daughter to bed

 

[nomad]

If you add it all up you get that marriage is a binding agreement that is witnessed by others and God that has a paper trail. We also see that in most of the references that it is a public event where people are invited and it is a ‘feast.’ So living together before marriage and having sex and loving each other with all your heart does not make you married. And since you are not married then what you are doing is fornication and adultery which is sinning against God.

I've read through this document twice.  I agree with what you have stated.  This is an ideal way of doing things.  It is good to refrain from sex before getting a binding covenant.  But we live in a fallen world where it is not always ideal.  Do mercy, grace and forgiveness play a part in any of this?

 

[OracleX]

I've read through this document twice. I agree with what you have stated. This is an ideal way of doing things. It is good to refrain from sex before getting a binding covenant. But we live in a fallen world where it is not always ideal. Do mercy, grace and forgiveness play a part in any of this?

This is where people are getting lost. This is not the ideal way of doing things it Gods way of doing things. Nothing I stated was my ideas or theories, they were quotes from the Bible and the other small part was the use of simple logic and legallities. This is not an ideal way, its Gods way. Having said that, whos way do you choose? Gods way or the worlds way? When you choose the worlds way grace and forgiveness is a big part as you are sinning against God.

Yes the world is fallen, yes the world has twisted many good things that God has created. But just because we live in a fallen world does not mean we have a free rain to sin. There is not buts when it comes to sin. When you die and stand before God and He asks you why you sinned against Him, are you going to say, "but that is what everyone else was doing."? No. It is not good to refrain it is the right thing to do.

We can not pick and choose what we want to obey when it comes to God. If we are His child then we strive to obey Him in every way. Some times it is very very hard to do the right thing, but that is what God asks of us. God speaks harsly to those who are luke warm, those who are wishy washy Christians. He doesn't want those sort - that is not to say that they are not saved, they may very well be. What He wants is us to be wholey devoted to Him and only Him.

 

[Memory's Flame]

Ok; well my boyfriend and I have a formal agreement that we will not see anyone else, that we will one day be married and that we love each other very much. We are "Common Law" married and share everything from popsicles (I just pierced my tongue and can't yet eat "real" food) to insurance plans and tax filings.

Where does that fall?

 

[nomad]

When I use the word "ideal" you have defined and understood my meaning correctly.  Ideal therefore now is defined as "being Gods way"

Nothing I stated was my ideas or theories, they were quotes from the Bible

I am very aware of the source of your imformation. You do not have to defend yourself quoting from the scripture.

 

whos way do you choose? Gods way or the worlds way?

Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life no man comes to the father except by me.  So I have chosen the way.  The Way being Jesus.  Techniquelly He chose me.

For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God and according to what Paul writes to the Romans in Chapter 7 it is obvious that even after the act of Salvation we are still sinners.  Paul says that there is "Sin" living in him and goes so far to blame his wrong doing on that "Sin".  Even tho he struggles with it He cannot seem to defeat it.  That's where the good news comes in "Thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord".

 

Yes the world is fallen, yes the world has twisted many good things that God has created. But just because we live in a fallen world does not mean we have a free rain to sin. There is not buts when it comes to sin. When you die and stand before God and He asks you why you sinned against Him, are you going to say, "but that is what everyone else was doing."? No. It is not good to refrain it is the right thing to do.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentance.  If you are insinuating what I think then it will come out.  As to how am I going to reply when He asks me why I sinned I will point to His Word.  For by the Word am I saved, not by works lest anyman boast.  Does this mean that I am free to sin.  Of course not.

 

We can not pick and choose what we want to obey when it comes to God. If we are His child then we strive to obey Him in every way. Some times it is very very hard to do the right thing, but that is what God asks of us. God speaks harsly to those who are luke warm, those who are wishy washy Christians. He doesn't want those sort - that is not to say that they are not saved, they may very well be. What He wants is us to be wholey devoted to Him and only Him.

Your whole point seems to be that sex before marriage is a sin which I agree with.  I even have a good understanding of why it's a sin because of my own personal learning to this issue.

So for the sake of argument, I have had sex before marriage.  I know it's wrong or maybe I'm not certain because I am trying to justify it somehow.  Now we understand that evil begets evil because now we not only have the sin of fornication but on top of that the sin of justification of the sin.  Eventually, this cycle will lead to death.  What are we going to do about this.  I don't feel that God has an issue with it.  I feel He is more concerned about something else.

God grows us all up as individuals according to what He knows is best for each of us.  Some of us have sins that He deals with or delivers us from right away others He deals with at a later stage in our life.  To say we are sinless regardless of what the sin may be is foolish and blind.

Should I therefore pull the weeds and uproot wheat and destroy what is good?

 

[OracleX]

How do you feel? When reading what the Bible has to say about this, how do you feel? Unfortunately we can not just go based on just our feelings alone but a counscience that is tuned with the Bible can be a good indicator of what is right and wrong.

Why is there common law? Because people live together without getting married and there were many legal problems arrising from this. So as it is where you live, also where I live, after a certain amount of time living together makes you common law. This based on time that you have spent together, not because of a convenant between you. Common law is our socitity and our governments way of dealing with the living together epidemic.

Is common law the same as a Biblical marriage? I don't think so. You may now be legally bound to your fiance but it is not the same as a Biblical marriage. I will do some reading on the common law issue. But when it comes down to it you are legally bond to your fiance because of the amount of time you have lived together. The Biblical version is a legally binding covenant between to people based on love, and a decision to love each other till death due you part. Common law is not like that, and doesn't represent a commitment like a marriage does.

I commend you on your earnest search for truth. God bless.

 

[nomad]

Ok; well my boyfriend and I have a formal agreement that we will not see anyone else, that we will one day be married and that we love each other very much. We are "Common Law" married and share everything from popsicles (I just pierced my tongue and can't yet eat "real" food) to insurance plans and tax filings.

Basically as we understand marriage there are these steps;

First you have to meet,

You both enter into a commitment with one another to spend the rest of your lives together.  You begin by involving Papa God in your decision.

Next you take this to the next level by having your commitments to each other spoken outloud before witnesses.  This ceremony is overlooked of course by God , the preacher or whomever has the authority at the time and the witnesses.  You are now legally married.

Those are the steps.  Your not legally married until you have a piece of paper given to you after everyone has witnessed your "you cannot get out of this commitment" vows to each other. 

So where your at is at step 2 but what you done is taken the fruit before you paid the price.  You broke alot of commandments.

God has said that his grace is sufficient and sometimes He likes to administer His Grace through His people.

If you lack the money to get a marriage certificate from the justice of the peace I will gladly send it to you.  You can later have a larger more formal wedding.  You would then come into compliance of God's laws for you and your boyfriend and He will bless you for doing so.  What you need to know is that what you are doing is wrong, but you can correct it and I am willing to help you to do so.  I find you guilty but not guilty if you are willing to make amends.  It looks contradictory but in the end it is the way the Lord views it.

 

[nomad]

How do you feel? When reading what the Bible has to say about this, how do you feel? Unfortunately we can not just go based on just our feelings alone but a counscience that is tuned with the Bible can be a good indicator of what is right and wrong.

You may have wanted to add something far more important to this statement.  When you read the Bible are you asking God the one who inspired it, to make it clear to you what He wants you to understand of it.

 

[OracleX]

Nomad,

I think we are seeing eye to eye, or atleast getting very close.

My comment that you did not understand, I will explain. The point I was trying to make it that it is not good that we do what the Word of God says it is the right thing. There are absolutes. We must be careful not to become legalistic but there are absolutes. There is right and there is wrong. What I was trying to say is that it is more than good, it is the right thing to obey God. It may seem like a small difference in reading this but can have a big difference when one tries to do what is good. The world has tainted what is good. We must always go back to God to find out what is right. Again, it may be a petty point but the words we use can at times be mis-understood if we are not careful.

As far as having a sin in your life and dealing with it over time. If you have been convicted of it and you know it is sin, then you need to make every effort to stop doing it. We should not cheapen grace by sinning knowing that we will be forgiven. When Jesus addresses the adulterous womem, he said go and sin no more. He told her to stop. He didn't ask her about her situation and circumstances, He said sin no more. Romans 6 speaks very clearly to this as well. Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? May it never be! If we know something that is in our life is sin, then we must deal with it.

Let me give you an example. After about a 7 year long backslide I came back to God and gave my all and followed Him. But during those years of backsliding I picked up many things in my life that are sinful. Did God convict me of all those things at once our relationship was restored? No. God convicted me of things in my life as I grew closer to Him. The closer I drew to God the more He convicted me of sin. This is key. The closer your relationship is with God the more you will be sensitive to sin. When I chose to restore my relationship with God I also seeked my pastors help to point out things and to confirm things. There were things that I wasn't sure about so I asked and he gave me answers. One of the things that I was convicted of was smoking. It was a habit I picked up while backsliding. But once I chose to follow God and drew close to Him, it was one of the first things to go. He gave me victory over it, cold turkey. Another thing is games. Games alone may not be a sin but they were taking over, and I was neglecting my family and God. God convicted me of this and I played very little in comparison and now quit completly because it is a tempation that I don't need to go near.

In any case, this is off topic a bit but still relevent. Basically, if you know something is wrong, you know that something in your life is sin, then you need to deal with it. Not later, now. Not when it is convienent, now.

When there is something in our life that it is sin, Jesus says 'go and sin no more.'

edited because can't spell

 

[nomad]

You may have wanted to add something far more important to this statement. When you read the Bible are you asking God the one who inspired it, to make it clear to you what He wants you to understand of it.

As an afterthought all to often we get caught up into trying to understand the Bible by the dictates of what we know.  One of my earliest Keys to the kingdom of god was "lean not to you own understanding".

Of course you may say I am taking this out of context, but I learned this from the "Word of God" when He taught me about taking things according to my own understanding.

It is one of the functions of the Holy Spirit to lead us into the Truth.  This truth is often not as it may seem.  To find the truth one must really absolutely Trust God and not man.  Mans definition may or may not be what God intended.

 

[OracleX]

Please take note that I said a conscience tuned by the Word of God.

There are four basic means that God gives us direction:
- the Bible (His Word)
- the Holy Spirit
- counsel from godly people and
- the conscience

The other three had been discussed already I was bringing up the ladder point. A conscience that is not tuned on the Word of God is a conscience that can not be trusted.

 

[nomad]

 

As far as having a sin in your life and dealing with it over time. If you have been convicted of it and you know it is sin, then you need to make every effort to stop doing it.

I agree and want to liken it to marriage.  If Jesus, or our spouse asks us to start or stop doing something then why are we doing it?  Is it simply because it's the right thing to do?  Or should there be more to it?  If you asked somebody to stop or start doing something wouldn't you want there intent to be "I'm doing this because I love you" and not just because it is Law?   Legalist want you to do it for the law which wouldn't it then become idolatry before the eyes of God?  Of course it would.  The law was made by God it is however not God.  We are saved not by upholding the law which is not God but believing in God, Jesus Christ our Lord.

If I am asked to do or not do something, I am going to try and make my intent "because I love you" and not merely because you say I have to uphold the law.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Song of Songs lays it out pretty well.

 

[nomad]

Song of Songs lays it out pretty well

Are you referring to the song of Solomon?

I have been told that I do not have the authority to judge a person guilty or not guilty, actually all children of God have been given this authority according to His Word.  However, you can't use what you don't know you have and if you don't know how to use it you can cause serious damage.

When we become children of God, we are counted blameless because of the Blood of Jesus Christ.  Not Guilty.

Just because we are children of God does not make us sin free.  Guilty.

It is not for us to judge what is right or wrong in a persons life.  God will deal with that persons sin according to His own plan for them.  If someone is having sex before marriage it is not for me to judge them but maybe to point out to them a better way with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

Is the person wrong or guilty?  Yes.  Is the person going to Hell because of it.  No, Not Guilty by the blood of the Lamb.  When Satan the accuser comes to accuse a brother or sister, Not Guilty.  When God comes and points it out guilty, but without condemnation or judgement just Love that is beyond words.

If someone is having sex before marriage then they are Not Guilty by the Blood of the Lamb, but guilty by His Word.  Is God dealing with that person about this paticular sin in their life at this time?  Unless God tells us we don't know.  Should we stone them by Bible beating them into compliance?  No.  For who among us has no sin?Should we help them recover from this sin?  Yes, if God calls us to do so, or we have that paticular confidence.  Should we proceed humbly knowing full well our own weaknesses?  Should we badger someone about it?  Should we try to put ourselves in their shoes and try to understand how they feel?

There are things way beyond our understanding.  I know couples who have had sex before marriage, married and lived very Godly lives.  Was it wrong?  Yes.  Did God make it right in the end?  Yes.  Does this justify the sin?  No.

Do you know what it is like to struggle with something so intensly that it absorbs all of your energy?  If you have no energy left, then what kind of a healthy relationship do you think you could build with God?  Unless you've been there, you don't know.  There are sins in my own life that I know of that I don't bother with because I know I can't.  I trust Jesus to honor His word.

Thou shalt not kill, yet we go to war and kill.  We kill each other and create divisions amongst ourselves for what?

Sex before marriage is definitely fornication if you are out being promiscuous to fulfill your own lustful desires.  But what if you are commited to one mate and there is true love involved?  Right reasons at the wrong time.

Bottom line is we are all going to fall flat on our face.  Sex is one of those sins that is against the body and the soul.  If you burn with lust marry.  If you're having sex outside of marriage, repent of this by making your marriage legal before God and man.  God will forgive you if you ask Him for it and the grace to get through it.

Can sex be wrong in marriage? Yes if you are selfish about it.

I hope and have prayed that this be helpful to the reader.

 

[Memory's Flame]

I feel I have been fazed out of this conversation!! You both make wonderful stances and points and are getting much closer to seeing each other!!

God Bless!

 

[endure]

the bible is to cut and dry about this,
and yes if you see that scripture says "fornication is a sin" and yet you still go to prayer about it, you may very well hear something that tells you that its alright to have sex if your in love, or if you are going to get married, but thats not what God said, and yes God may allow you to hear a lie, because you already question his word.

the bible clearly states that fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom of God 1 cor 6.9
and paul even said to "flee fornication"
its something you have to run from and make every provision possible so that you will not do that. 1 cor 6.18

im not trying to be offensive, but according to the bible,
if you are not married to that person, you have no business having sex with them and it is a sin.

some people say that if you are sure your going to get married, or if your deeply in love, then its ok to have sex with them.

well, lets talk about that, just to show that im not trying to be old fashioned or just dont know how to relate.

in 1 cor 7.2
nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let everyman have his own wife, and let everywoman have her own husband.
1 cor 7.8
i say therefor to the unmarried, and to the widows, it is good for them if they abide even as i.
v9
BUT IF THEY CANNOT CONTAIN, LET THEM MARRY: for it is better to marry than to burn.

if you are in a relationship that you cannot control yourself, and you cannot contain yourself, and you cannot help having sex with the person because of the passion and love you have for them, TO AVOID COMMITING FORNICATION, YOU NEED TO MARRY THEM.

but if you cannot marry that person, becuase they arent the one for you, and for whatever reason, THEN YOU BETTER FLEE FROM FORNICATION AND HAVING SEX WITH THAT PERSON, get out of the relationship, get away from them, as 1 cor 6.9 says.

if they are the one for you, and you are ok with marrying that person, then you need to go ahead and get married lest you burn with passion that you cannot control and fall into sin.

if they are not the one you need to marry, then you have no business with them anyway, get away from them, and do everything possible to serve the lord rightly.

i know not everyones willing to do this,
but our bodies are not our own, and we are subject to the lord.
he commanded us to never commit fornication.

no matter what reasoning man may create, it is never right to commit fornication, did God stutter?

 

[Memory's Flame]

***Refrains from stepping in***

I'm just keeping my mouth such. Each situation is to each person, and their interpretation of the bible is up to them!

Just keep in mind other people feelings and emotions; I know that sounds "lame" but seriously...