Sex Education

[Velo Princesse]

I was in another forum and accidentally got myself wrapped up in a insanely long conversation about abortion. After all the American's finally shut up some one from England chimed in. He said that over there abortion isn't a big issue and neither is teen pregnancy (with an exception that I won't get into). Why? Because there are free condoms everywhere, it's easy to get contraceptives, they have advice shows on the topic and people are basically open about it. So, although there are a lot of kids who aren't doing it, the ones who are know the score and are able to protect themselves.

When I was in church, I didn't want the word 'sex' uttered around my childrens virgin ears, so I get how christians feel about the topic. But, let's just say for a moment that your child becomes a teenager and rebels. It has been known to happen! If by some weird freak of nature, such a common occurance happens to you and your child has sex, don't you want them to know the score? Don't you want them to be able to protect themselves? I am a first hand example that if you 'raise a child in the way he should go' he still might depart from it... in fact, he probably will... at least for a little while. So, why the nervous breakdown about sex education? If you make it impossible for them to come to you about it (which you do because that's what most parents do) and you make it impossible for them to get contraceptives without talking to you or stealing them, aren't you just setting them up to get pregnant or get a disease if they do in fact have sex? In other words, if there is the slightest chance they could get to a pool, shouldn't they be taught how to swim?

*** My requests for this thread: Please don't talk about abortion, because that isn't the point. And try to answer without scripture if you possibly can. Also every where I wrote 'you' it was a collective 'you' meaning people in general. Don't accuse me of accusing you of anything.***
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[Shane Roach]

I was in another forum and accidentally got myself wrapped up in a insanely long conversation about abortion. After all the American's finally shut up some one from England chimed in. He said that over there abortion isn't a big issue and neither is teen pregnancy (with an exception that I won't get into). Why? Because there are free condoms everywhere, it's easy to get contraceptives, they have advice shows on the topic and people are basically open about it. So, although there are a lot of kids who aren't doing it, the ones who are know the score and are able to protect themselves.

When I was in church, I didn't want the word 'sex' uttered around my childrens virgin ears, so I get how christians feel about the topic. But, let's just say for a moment that your child becomes a teenager and rebels. It has been known to happen! If by some weird freak of nature, such a common occurance happens to you and your child has sex, don't you want them to know the score? Don't you want them to be able to protect themselves? I am a first hand example that if you 'raise a child in the way he should go' he still might depart from it... in fact, he probably will... at least for a little while. So, why the nervous breakdown about sex education? If you make it impossible for them to come to you about it (which you do because that's what most parents do) and you make it impossible for them to get contraceptives without talking to you or stealing them, aren't you just setting them up to get pregnant or get a disease if they do in fact have sex? In other words, if there is the slightest chance they could get to a pool, shouldn't they be taught how to swim?

*** My requests for this thread: Please don't talk about abortion, because that isn't the point. And try to answer without scripture if you possibly can. Also every where I wrote 'you' it was a collective 'you' meaning people in general. Don't accuse me of accusing you of anything.***


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When I was in high school the debate about sex education was just getting warm. I think that it wasn't until people started wanting to hand out condoms at school that it really got choppy here. Frankly, I don't know how bright someone has to be to figure out how to use one, but there are commercials all over the air waves and if someone doesn' know about them by now it isn't because of some lack of sex ed.

What a lot of Americans would like, and especially those of a socially conservative bent, is a little honesty about what actually will prevent pregnancy, which is abstinance. Condoms break. The pill fails sometimes. Also, I find the mantra that people are just going to do it to be a false assumption. Until just the last few decades, the norm all over was to minimize sex outside of marriage. It has been this way for a long time, and there are some pretty simple and straight foreward reasons for that even if you exclude religion entirely from the discussion.

I feel there is entirely too much emphasis on sex at all costs.

 

[S Walch]

I see that sex education should be taught like this.

For a 100% guarntee that you wont get someone pregnant - is to not have sex at all.


But seeing as though not everyone is gonna abstaine, they should also be taught the proper precautions to use - like condoms, the Pill etc.

But it should be fully made clear that abstinence is the only way for a 100% guarantee

 

[Phred]

There are two parts to this... one is the teaching of human biology. The other is the teaching of values. I don't feel that a 22 year-old teacher, fresh out of college is in any position to be teaching my children about sexual behavior. That's my job, one I reserve for myself. I don't want my kids being taught the current social agendas, I want to teach them the values I feel they should have... I'd bet all parents agree with me.

A public school should be teaching the facts, not the mores. "Human beings reproduce in the following manner..." Later on, in high school, kids should be taught about sexuality as it relates to the human species. Here's the rub... where is the line? We all have different lines regarding what encroaches upon our values. I think my kids should be taught about different types of relationships. Others don't. So we end up in a situation like we currently have in biology classes where teachers choose to avoid teaching evolution because of the loud voices of those who object.

Then, what do we do about those children who have parents who've abdicated their responsibilities? If they aren't learning values at home, and the schools can't teach them... where to they find the limits they're searching for? "From such children come other children."

I think the approach England is using is much more effective than the "abstinence only" approach we're currently using here. But, that's related to religion. Another example of "where is the line?" The right-wing religionists have moved that line back to their comfort zone.

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[Velo Princesse]

I am a conservative and I believe abstinence should be taught. But, for those of you who remember being a teenager, was 'just don't do it' really enough to stop you? And if it was, would easy access to condoms or the pill have changed that? The fact is 'abstinence education is working' and 'teen pregnancy is on the rise' just don't jive together, but that is what we are being told... in seperate press conferences, of course.

I'm sure people know how to use a condom. My point is that they don't have access to them. Sex is such a bad word around here that kids just aren't being given real options. You want a condom? Go into a store, face the judging clerk and buy it. No? Steal it! You want to be on the pill? Talk to your mom... yeah right! Thus, they are left to do what they are going to do without all the options. If I wasn't going to have sex, contraceptives being readily available wouldn't make me suddenly decide to do it. So, why not make them readily available for those who are going to do it?

 

[Tawny]

What doesn't seem to be known though, is we have one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe here.

Yes we do have sex education, but I think that parents of the current generation have just left it all for schools and absolved themselves of responsibility. I personally had Sex ed at school which was more about the mechanics but then this was 20 years ago.

As a parent myself I will talk to my daughter the same as my mum spoke to me, her innocence is precious and she should only have a full sexual relationship when she is good and ready and SURE it feels right, not just because 'everyone else is doing it'

Nicky

 

[Velo Princesse]

Right. I probably chose the wrong name for the thread. Parents do have a tendency to let things drop if the schools handle it, which is just silly. But over here, contraceptives being available to teenagers is a huge no-no. There have been rallies and protests and the whole nine yards. What that leaves are kids who might just do it, but can't protect themselves... even if they are smart enough to know how without their parent's help.

What I don't get is why it matters if the schools provide contraceptives, or if a doctor can prescribe it without parental consent. I want my daughter protected. If my daughter feels she can't come to me when she's ready to make that step, I want her to be able to get protection anyway. For those of you who don't feel the same, why not? That is more my question than anything else.

 

[Tawny]

No way!

How can they not be readily available?

Here girls of any age can get the morning after pill without their parents consent, I think a happy medium has to be struck between the liberalism over here and the conservatism over there.

Condoms are far more readily available here, in supermarkets etc, I don't know whether you can get them in schools, but I remember being shown how to put one on when I was about 15 by a very embarrassed teacher.

I know ther has been comment here about the morning after pill being available but nothing hugely major. Its the same with the pro life campaigners, I have seen footage of the more militant factions in the US and quite frankly it is scary.

Nicky

 

[Velo Princesse]

I'm not talking about the morning after pill. I'm talking about being a 16 year old girl, knowing that you are going to have sex but not wanting to talk to your parents. Why not be able to go to your family doctor, the one who knows you and knows how you will react to medications, and get an Rx for medication that can keep you from getting pregnant? Or being a 16 year old boy, knowing (or hoping) you are going to have sex and being able to go into a bathroom and buy a condom for 25 cents out of a machine. We want them to be responsible right? Why not let them be?

 

[Shane Roach]

No way!

How can they not be readily available?

Here girls of any age can get the morning after pill without their parents consent, I think a happy medium has to be struck between the liberalism over here and the conservatism over there.

Condoms are far more readily available here, in supermarkets etc, I don't know whether you can get them in schools, but I remember being shown how to put one on when I was about 15 by a very embarrassed teacher.

I know ther has been comment here about the morning after pill being available but nothing hugely major. Its the same with the pro life campaigners, I have seen footage of the more militant factions in the US and quite frankly it is scary.

Nicky

You can get a condom at any given corner store. They are quite readily available. The pill requires parental permission, and I don't think the morning after pill is legal here.

I don't see the point of encouraging children to have sex behind their parents back. This is the point I think that causes the division. If the child is responsible, then they will talk about sex with their parents and either do as they are told until they leave home or else their parents will ok their use of contraceptives. Since the parents are the ones paying for all the repercussions should the girls choices result in health problems of any kind, I do not like the idea that the medical industry should give underage girls access to prevention or abortives without the parents knowledge.

If society put a united front on this, kids would know what was expected and behaviors would be affected. I don't accept the assertion that people are just going to do things no matter what. It is a function of expecting people to behave responsibly and holding them accountable when they do not.

 

[Shane Roach]

I'm not talking about the morning after pill. I'm talking about being a 16 year old girl, knowing that you are going to have sex but not wanting to talk to your parents. Why not be able to go to your family doctor, the one who knows you and knows how you will react to medications, and get an Rx for medication that can keep you from getting pregnant? Or being a 16 year old boy, knowing (or hoping) you are going to have sex and being able to go into a bathroom and buy a condom for 25 cents out of a machine. We want them to be responsible right? Why not let them be?

Any boy with 25 cents can get a condom from a vending machine. I'm not sure what you are talking about there. Why must children who are completely unable to care for children they may have be give permission by society to start having sex without their parents knowledge and consent. It is the sneak factor you appear to be condoning that disturbs me.

 

[Grl4Christ987]

What the key ingredient that is missing in public school teachings about sex education is the aftermath of having sex inside and outside of marriage. My mom talks to me alllll the time how much regret she felt after having sex before and after she got her divorce. My mom says that what Bush is doing is a good way to prevent more teen pregnancies, but I'd have to disagree, somewhat. It's taboo around my school to say that sex is meant only for marriage, I mean literally it's a fashion statement to be pregnant here, and so therefore it is not being talked about at all, unless it's an inneudendous matter. It needs to be talked about how most girls, and some guys, are left feeling dirty and shameful the "morning after". So that is my opinion.

 

[Tawny]

You can get a condom at any given corner store. They are quite readily available. The pill requires parental permission, and I don't think the morning after pill is legal here.

I don't see the point of encouraging children to have sex behind their parents back. This is the point I think that causes the division. If the child is responsible, then they will talk about sex with their parents and either do as they are told until they leave home or else their parents will ok their use of contraceptives. Since the parents are the ones paying for all the repercussions should the girls choices result in health problems of any kind, I do not like the idea that the medical industry should give underage girls access to prevention or abortives without the parents knowledge.

If society put a united front on this, kids would know what was expected and behaviors would be affected. I don't accept the assertion that people are just going to do things no matter what. It is a function of expecting people to behave responsibly and holding them accountable when they do not.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we should encourage children to go behind their parents back, but lets face it, I am not sure what the situation is over there but less and less teenagers, especially in inner cities have any significant communication with their parents.

I do not know what your age of consent is there but here it is 16. I do not see the point of putting obstacles to safety, in the way of a teenager who is hell bent on having sex.

We all know that abstinence is the best form of protection, but think back to when you were a teenager, did you listen to what your parents said? Not just in respect of this issue but about anything? I know I would stand there respectfully while they spoke and then laugh behind their backs. I know that sounds disrespectful but as a teenager you think you know it all!


I think another of the problems we have over here, is in poorer parts of the country girls see pregnancy as a way out. They will get there benefits and their house/flat and they think that they have achieved something!

Until we rid them of this mindset I can just see it getting worse

 

[Shane Roach]

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we should encourage children to go behind their parents back, but lets face it, I am not sure what the situation is over there but less and less teenagers, especially in inner cities have any significant communication with their parents.

I do not know what your age of consent is there but here it is 16. I do not see the point of putting obstacles to safety, in the way of a teenager who is hell bent on having sex.

We all know that abstinence is the best form of protection, but think back to when you were a teenager, did you listen to what your parents said? Not just in respect of this issue but about anything? I know I would stand there respectfully while they spoke and then laugh behind their backs. I know that sounds disrespectful but as a teenager you think you know it all!


I think another of the problems we have over here, is in poorer parts of the country girls see pregnancy as a way out. They will get there benefits and their house/flat and they think that they have achieved something!

Until we rid them of this mindset I can just see it getting worse

I think a big part of the reason I am how I am is because I did not listen to my parents, and the reason I did not is I was the responsible one and they both were not.

My parents were step siblings when I was concieved.

Needless to say, despite the best intentions (I guess) of my parents, this rather dubious start to my life has had a LOT of consequences on my end, and I find the premise, "kids are going to disobey, so we have to ..." to be the culprit behind this. I understand your concern but my firm belief is we need to get back to a day when people took responsibility.

I wish our educational system taught kids life skills, job skills, before it does. In the US, anything carreer oriented is reserved for after high school it seems, and by then the young adult has to indebt theselves in order to afford it. I think if there is anything about our education system that I wish was more available it would be job oriented training. Our math training seems to be pretty backwards too. It seems the average European teen knows more math than the typical college sophomore here.

How does this relate to the sex issue? Well, if kids could ween themselves from their parents earlier they could take responsibility earlier and would not have to wait as long to become responsible members of society. I have long believed that the single biggest contributor to the whole unwed mother phenomenon is we have now put off a person's ability to become a functioning member of society some 4-8 YEARS after they have passed puberty.

Asking people to struggle with celibacy for that length of time may well be inhumane.

Still, it is doable. I surely managed it without a whole lot of anguish. Ultimately, I believe as long as people are legally under the authority of their parents, and their parents are legally bound to their care, they should do as they are instructed and respect the responsibility their parents have for them. If society in general were not patting them on the back and winking and nodding all the while, but rather was forcefull in its insistance that underage people remain obedient to their parents, this would indeed help I have no doubt. It is the very nature of the socialization process by which we all learn that we take our cues from the society around us.

 

[Phred]

If society put a united front on this, kids would know what was expected and behaviors would be affected. I don't accept the assertion that people are just going to do things no matter what. It is a function of expecting people to behave responsibly and holding them accountable when they do not.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again but expecting a different outcome each time. Since nothing has ever stopped kids from having sex in the past, what could possibly make you think this would matter today?

If you've refused to teach a child about contraceptives, tell me, who should be held accountable when she gets pregnant? Honestly, I don't understand how you could think ignorance will promote anything useful.

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[Velo Princesse]

Any boy with 25 cents can get a condom from a vending machine. I'm not sure what you are talking about there. Why must children who are completely unable to care for children they may have be give permission by society to start having sex without their parents knowledge and consent. It is the sneak factor you appear to be condoning that disturbs me.

Where I live condoms are available only by asking the cashier who has to get them out of a lock box. So, I am coming from a different perspective on that issue.

My answer to the rest of your statement is thus:

I'm not condoning a sneak factor. I would love it if I knew for sure that when my kids make that decision they would talk to me first, but I don't know that. If they don't let me in, I can't protect them. So, if they are going to have sex, which they might do despite all of my and societies lectures on why they shouldn't, I want them to be safe without having to talk to me. When that time comes, they will have already determined in their own minds if they can come to me or if they can't. Hopefully, the will think they can. If they think they can't, however, I don't want the other available option to be to have sex without contraceptives. I want them to be able to go to an adult that I trust, like our doctor, and talk to them. If it can't be me, I want someone to make sure they are protected.

What disturbs me is that you seem to think that if society says 'tsk, tsk' and wags their fingers at your teenager she will stay in her room wearing iron undies until she is legally wed. It's a beautiful dream of a perfect world, but be reasonable and admit that that probably isn't what is going to happen.

 

[Tawny]

Well, if kids could ween themselves from their parents earlier they could take responsibility earlier and would not have to wait as long to become responsible members of society. I have long believed that the single biggest contributor to the whole unwed mother phenomenon is we have now put off a person's ability to become a functioning member of society some 4-8 YEARS after they have passed puberty.

Asking people to struggle with celibacy for that length of time may well be inhumane.

Still, it is doable. I surely managed it without a whole lot of anguish. Ultimately, I believe as long as people are legally under the authority of their parents, and their parents are legally bound to their care, they should do as they are instructed and respect the responsibility their parents have for them. If society in general were not patting them on the back and winking and nodding all the while, but rather was forcefull in its insistance that underage people remain obedient to their parents, this would indeed help I have no doubt. It is the very nature of the socialization process by which we all learn that we take our cues from the society around us.

But surely then , the kids who are 14 15 16 who are trying to get some sort of contraceptive should be praised, I mean if they are going to do it they may as well do it safely.

Also you need to remember. 80-100 years ago, girls of 14 or 15 were married and having families of their own.

It is US as a society who have created this situation and US as a society who will have to change it, Our mothers and fathers were given more freedom than their parents and in turn we were given more freedom than ours. I just can't see how it can be reigned in again.

Nicky

 

[Shane Roach]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again but expecting a different outcome each time. Since nothing has ever stopped kids from having sex in the past, what could possibly make you think this would matter today?

If you've refused to teach a child about contraceptives, tell me, who should be held accountable when she gets pregnant? Honestly, I don't understand how you could think ignorance will promote anything useful.

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I never said anything about not teaching about contraceptives Phred.

Please, if you are going to address me specifically, read to comprehend my posts. I do not enjoy your posts and go out of my way to not talk to you. If you despise me so much, please do the same. I will not put you on ignore because I feel it an unfortunate necessity to hear and be aware of things that people are saying, but I am not interested in getting into the flame festivals that seem to typify your arrival on any given thread.

This is obviously just an expression of my personal feelings on the matter. You have your view, and that's fine, but I would prefer not to discuss much with you at least until you begin to habitually post thoughtfull, polite notes.

Thanks.

 

[Shane Roach]

Where I live condoms are available only by asking the cashier who has to get them out of a lock box. So, I am coming from a different perspective on that issue.

My answer to the rest of your statement is thus:

I'm not condoning a sneak factor. I would love it if I knew for sure that when my kids make that decision they would talk to me first, but I don't know that. If they don't let me in, I can't protect them. So, if they are going to have sex, which they might do despite all of my and societies lectures on why they shouldn't, I want them to be safe without having to talk to me. When that time comes, they will have already determined in their own minds if they can come to me or if they can't. Hopefully, the will think they can. If they think they can't, however, I don't want the other available option to be to have sex without contraceptives. I want them to be able to go to an adult that I trust, like our doctor, and talk to them. If it can't be me, I want someone to make sure they are protected.

What disturbs me is that you seem to think that if society says 'tsk, tsk' and wags their fingers at your teenager she will stay in her room wearing iron undies until she is legally wed. It's a beautiful dream of a perfect world, but be reasonable and admit that that probably isn't what is going to happen.

I don't see why, given your beliefs, you do not take it on yourself to talk to your children, tell them both your expectations and yet also your concern for their health, and give your family doctor the permission to give them contraceptives if they wish. I can't condone a law, though, that lets kids do this sort of thing expressly against the will of their parents.

As far as society is concerned, I'm afraid I would prefer a lot more than a tsk tsk.

 

[Shane Roach]

But surely then , the kids who are 14 15 16 who are trying to get some sort of contraceptive should be praised, I mean if they are going to do it they may as well do it safely.

Also you need to remember. 80-100 years ago, girls of 14 or 15 were married and having families of their own.

It is US as a society who have created this situation and US as a society who will have to change it, Our mothers and fathers were given more freedom than their parents and in turn we were given more freedom than ours. I just can't see how it can be reigned in again.

Nicky

It seems the catchword freedom has ceased to come with the understanding of the reality of responsability.

Even with contraceptives, accidental pregnancy is going to happen. If we are going to speak here as realists, then the bottom line is that sex should be treated with sobriety and seriousness rather than as a party favor on t.v. and everywhere else.

Sex is not some sort of "freedom", it is the vehicle by which human beings are brought into this world. If you would look back at my post and the effect that casual sex has had on my own life due to my own parents lack of responsibility, and tell me why I am the one that has to pay for their rediculous treatment of this so called freedom, and where all of you are when those of us who get to live in all these wrecked families and wrecked lives in the name of so called 'freedom'...

Well, words fail me. But as I said, responsability is key. There needs to be a return to accountability, and frankly, withou that, no amount of free pills and condoms is going to change that, because taking the pill regularly or even using a condom is also a inconvenience. Ultimately, even safe sex is about responsability, and that itself is the issue as far as I am concerned.