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Renton405

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I have a question on Ellen G White.. I do not know much about SDA.. but when G. White said that Jesus would come back in somewhere in 1844-1845 around, was that a misinterperatation? or do SDA believe that he has already come in 1844 and we did not recognize him??

"During the year 1845 I met Miss Ellen G. Harmon several times at my uncle's house in South Windham, Me. The first of these meetings was in the month of May, when I heard her declare that God had revealed to her that Jesus Christ would return to this earth in June, the next month." (Lucinda Burdick, notarized letter, published in Limboline
 

hraedisc

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djconklin

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when G. White said that Jesus would come back in somewhere in 1844-1845 around, was that a misinterperatation?

Ellen White never made such a prediction. Back in the 1840's there was a cross-denominational (Protestant and Catholic) movement of a couple of thousand preachers that believed the prophecies of Daniel pointed to the soon return of Jesus. Of course, he didn't so the question became why? Where did they go wrong in their understanding of what the Bible said? One branch out of that movement became the SDA church.

As for Lucinda Burdick's claim we should remember that EGW was only 17 in 1844 and Lucinda was but a child at the time. Lucinda Burdick, wrote that claim in Sept. 26, 1908, 63 years after the alleged events. One can notarize all one wants--all that says is that the person signed the paper--that doesn't make it true.
 
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winslow

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I have a question on Ellen G White.. I do not know much about SDA.. but when G. White said that Jesus would come back in somewhere in 1844-1845 around, was that a misinterperatation? or do SDA believe that he has already come in 1844 and we did not recognize him??

"During the year 1845 I met Miss Ellen G. Harmon several times at my uncle's house in South Windham, Me. The first of these meetings was in the month of May, when I heard her declare that God had revealed to her that Jesus Christ would return to this earth in June, the next month." (Lucinda Burdick, notarized letter, published in Limboline



The jehovahs witnesses believe Jesus came in a spiritual realm, I forget what year around 1912.

Seventh day adventists believe in the physical return of Jesus and it will be such an event that no one will not know it is happening.

It was William Miller who deducted that Christ would return in 1844, this was before the seventh day adventist church was founded/organized.
 
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hraedisc

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Back in the 1840's there was a cross-denominational (Protestant and Catholic) movement of a couple of thousand preachers that believed the prophecies of Daniel pointed to the soon return of Jesus.
Do you have any evidence that there were Catholics involved? I'd like to see any proof.

Ellen White was a believer that Jesus was going to come in 1844. They thought He was going to "cleanse the sanctuary" (Dan 8:14), which they erroneously thought was earth. After the fact, they discovered that the sanctuary was in heaven and that it was not earth. Hence, the date was correct, but the event was not.

The following is from the link I posted earlier:

In their investigation they learned that there is no Scripture evidence sustaining the popular view that the earth is the sanctuary; but they found in the Bible a full explanation of the subject of the sanctuary, its nature, location, and services; the testimony of the sacred writers being so clear and ample as to place the matter beyond all question. The apostle Paul, in the Epistle to the Hebrews, says: "Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the holiest of all; which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; and over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercy seat." Hebrews 9:1-5.
The sanctuary to which Paul here refers was the tabernacle built by Moses at the command of God as the earthly dwelling place of the Most High. "Let them make Me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them" (Exodus 25:8), was the direction given to Moses while in the mount with God. The Israelites were journeying through the wilderness,
Page 412

and the tabernacle was so constructed that it could be removed from place to place; yet it was a structure of great magnificence. Its walls consisted of upright boards heavily plated with gold and set in sockets of silver, while the roof was formed of a series of curtains, or coverings, the outer of skins, the innermost of fine linen beautifully wrought with figures of cherubim. Besides the outer court, which contained the altar of burnt offering, the tabernacle itself consisted of two apartments called the holy and the most holy place, separated by a rich and beautiful curtain, or veil; a similar veil closed the entrance to the first apartment. In the holy place was the candlestick, on the south, with its seven lamps giving light to the sanctuary both by day and by night; on the north stood the table of shewbread; and before the veil separating the holy from the most holy was the golden altar of incense, from which the cloud of fragrance, with the prayers of Israel, was daily ascending before God.
In the most holy place stood the ark, a chest of precious wood overlaid with gold, the depository of the two tables of stone upon which God had inscribed the law of Ten Commandments. Above the ark, and forming the cover to the sacred chest, was the mercy seat, a magnificent piece of workmanship, surmounted by two cherubim, one at each end, and all wrought of solid gold. In this apartment the divine presence was manifested in the cloud of glory between the cherubim.
After the settlement of the Hebrews in Canaan, the tabernacle was replaced by the temple of Solomon, which, though a permanent structure and upon a larger scale, observed the same proportions, and was similarly furnished. In this form the sanctuary existed--except while it lay in ruins in Daniel's time--until its destruction by the Romans, in A.D. 70.
This is the only sanctuary that ever existed on the earth, of which the Bible gives any information. This was declared
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by Paul to be the sanctuary of the first covenant. But has the new covenant no sanctuary? Turning again to the book of Hebrews, the seekers for truth found that the existence of a second, or new-covenant sanctuary, was implied in the words of Paul already quoted: "Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary." And the use of the word "also" intimates that Paul has before made mention of this sanctuary. Turning back to the beginning of the previous chapter, they read: "Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an High Priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a Minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man." Hebrews 8:1, 2.
Here is revealed the sanctuary of the new covenant. The sanctuary of the first covenant was pitched by man, built by Moses; this is pitched by the Lord, not by man. In that sanctuary the earthly priests performed their service; in this, Christ, our great High Priest, ministers at God's right hand. One sanctuary was on earth, the other is in heaven.
Further, the tabernacle built by Moses was made after a pattern. The Lord directed him: "According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it." And again the charge was given, "Look that thou make them after their pattern, which was showed thee in the mount." Exodus 25:9, 40. And Paul says that the first tabernacle "was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices;" that its holy places were "patterns of things in the heavens;" that the priests who offered gifts according to the law served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," and that "Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:9, 23; 8:5; 9:24.
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The sanctuary in heaven, in which Jesus ministers in our behalf, is the great original, of which the sanctuary built by Moses was a copy.
 
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freeindeed2

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I have a question on Ellen G White.. I do not know much about SDA.. but when G. White said that Jesus would come back in somewhere in 1844-1845 around, was that a misinterperatation? or do SDA believe that he has already come in 1844 and we did not recognize him??

"During the year 1845 I met Miss Ellen G. Harmon several times at my uncle's house in South Windham, Me. The first of these meetings was in the month of May, when I heard her declare that God had revealed to her that Jesus Christ would return to this earth in June, the next month." (Lucinda Burdick, notarized letter, published in Limboline
Ellen G. White is the SDA prophet that came out of the false predictions for Christ's return in 1843, then the Spring of 1844, and then October 22, 1844. After the date-setting fiasco came and went she had claimed to have 'visions' which confirmed that the date(s) were actually correct that the Millerites (William Miller) had set and that it was just the wrong event. Now SDA's use the 1844 date for their 'Investigative Judgment' doctrine which no other Christian group taught before or accepted since. If you're really interested in researching this topic I would suggest reading The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh Day Adventists - 1844, by Dale Ratzlaff. I see that others have already given you a link to the White Estate website and I would encourage you to read how they defend their only unique doctrine from the standpoint of EGW.

Just so you know, I was born and raised in the SDA church and school system and I pastored for 10 years as an SDA pastor. I left almost a year ago over this and many other problems and issues with SDA beliefs, teachings, and doctrines. It's a big onion to peel and it's layers have multiplied over the past 150+ years, so don't expect to get to a bottom line quickly.
 
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djconklin

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Ellen G. White is the SDA prophet that came out of the false predictions for Christ's return in 1843, then the Spring of 1844, and then October 22, 1844.

Hmm, EGW was all of 17 in '44 and never made any of those predictions.
 
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freeindeed2

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Hmm, EGW was all of 17 in '44 and never made any of those predictions.
I never said she did. I clearly said that she is the (SDA) prophet that emerged from the false date-setting fiasco, which clearly goes against the Bible. On Oct. 23, 1844 (the day after the 'great disappointment') Edson had his supposed one and only vision concerning the sanctuary doctrine for coming up with an alternative event using the same dates. A couple of months later EGW (still 17 or 18) had her confirming 'vision'. Miller himself, the one who came up with the 15 proofs 'proving' (which are completely laughable, yet EGW called them a 'perfect chain of biblical truth') the second coming of Christ didn't even accept this new alternative 'event' that ultimately became the sole unique doctrine to SDAism.

So, I think you'll see that I never said what you're saying I said.

Thanks for playing! :)
 
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... the false date-setting fiasco...
Whatever fiasco you think it was, many non-Millerite theologians at that time had no problem with the dating of Daniel 8:14 ending in 1844. Most were post-millennialists, so they didn't like the application Millerites gave to it.

Please feel free to start a thread somewhere detailing Daniel 8's fulfillment as you see it.
 
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freeindeed2

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Whatever fiasco you think it was, many non-Millerite theologians at that time had no problem with the dating of Daniel 8:14 ending in 1844. Most were post-millennialists, so they didn't like the application Millerites gave to it.
'Most' is a not true. Most absolutely rejected the explicitly anti-Biblical practice of date-setting. It was those who did not follow the clear instruction in Scripture that were deceived, thus causing their own 'disappointment' for not heeding to the the warnings. In the end it was all blamed on God though, that their deception was at his own hand, that the lies in the predictions were exactly as God wanted them. Nasty theology!

Please feel free to start a thread somewhere detailing Daniel 8's fulfillment as you see it.
It doesn't matter how 'I' see it. Clearly Christ's atonement did not begin 1800 years after his sacrifice and presenting his blood and then sitting down at the right hand of God.
 
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Jimlarmore

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Just so you know, I was born and raised in the SDA church and school system and I pastored for 10 years as an SDA pastor. I left almost a year ago over this and many other problems and issues with SDA beliefs, teachings, and doctrines. It's a big onion to peel and it's layers have multiplied over the past 150+ years, so don't expect to get to a bottom line quickly.

Every time I read something like this I am amazed and shake my head. Here we have a person who was born and raised in a denomination and schooled in their educational systems and worked as a pastor and evangelist for years. Fully accepting all of what that denomination taught for years then suddenly decided one of the doctrines was wrong and then found many other teachings that were wrong as well. This is what forced this person out of the church.

Then on the other hand you have person like me who was at one point in his life was an agnostic who by studying the Bible came to the Seventh-day-Adventist faith. Go figure!!! I have been in and looked at many different faiths and churches and have never found one that has stayed as close to the Bible as the SDA's do. If I could I would go there. The IJ has some problems but not major ones like many ex-adventists claim. The issues with E.G.White so far as I can tell are spurious to say the least. Nit picking to find small things to complain about. I have read The Desire of Ages and The Great Controversy and both of these books blessed me greatly.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Eila

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Every time I read something like this I am amazed and shake my head. Here we have a person who was born and raised in a denomination and schooled in their educational systems and worked as a pastor and evangelist for years. Fully accepting all of what that denomination taught for years then suddenly decided one of the doctrines was wrong and then found many other teachings that were wrong as well. This is what forced this person out of the church.

Then on the other hand you have person like me who was at one point in his life was an agnostic who by studying the Bible came to the Seventh-day-Adventist faith. Go figure!!! I have been in and looked at many different faiths and churches and have never found one that has stayed as close to the Bible as the SDA's do. If I could I would go there. The IJ has some problems but not major ones like many ex-adventists claim. The issues with E.G.White so far as I can tell are spurious to say the least. Nit picking to find small things to complain about. I have read The Desire of Ages and The Great Controversy and both of these books blessed me greatly.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jim,

I'm sure it is difficult to understand in your shoes. I know you believe what you believe with 100% of your being. I praise God that He used the SDA church to bring you to Him.

In most instances, people who have left the SDA church due to doctrinal issues have not left suddenly. For me it was a period of 8 years so it was anything but suddenly.

I think one of the bigger issues regarding EGW is that she is viewed as equal to the Bible or some view the Bible as inspired as her - in other words the level of inspiration is viewed as comparable. I realize not all SDAs believe that, but I would say a great deal do.

I do find that the major issues with the IJ are twofold. To accept the IJ you must believe that the atonement was incomplete when Jesus ascended to His Father. Also, it has Jesus examining our works to see if we are worthy for heaven which is a works-based salvation. To me those are not small things - but major things.

But the reason I left the SDA church in the first place was not because of those things because I didn't accept the incomplete atonement or the inspiration of EGW and was an SDA many years with those beliefs. I left because of the remnant status and the belief that SDAs needed to make Christians into SDAs so they would be saved in the end times.
 
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freeindeed2

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Every time I read something like this I am amazed and shake my head. Here we have a person who was born and raised in a denomination and schooled in their educational systems and worked as a pastor and evangelist for years. Fully accepting all of what that denomination taught for years then suddenly decided one of the doctrines was wrong and then found many other teachings that were wrong as well. This is what forced this person out of the church.
Nothing forced me out of the SDA church, I was led out by the Holy Spirit. (I'm actually in the church the Bible refers to! You know, those believe in Jesus for their salvation and have the Holy Spirit living IN them.) If anything 'forced' me out it would be the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Then on the other hand you have person like me who was at one point in his life was an agnostic who by studying the Bible came to the Seventh-day-Adventist faith. Go figure!!! I have been in and looked at many different faiths and churches and have never found one that has stayed as close to the Bible as the SDA's do.
I understand why you believe that through the proof-text method SDAism teaches to arrive at their 'peculiar' doctrines. After 19 years of schooling in the SDA system (including Andrews University), and being a pastor for 10+ years doing Revelation Seminars (in several other countries as well) and 'Prayer Meetings', and Bible studies, and 6 week Baptismal Studies, etc., I think I can speak with some semblance of authority as to how one arrives at SDA doctrines/beliefs/teachings. Add to that the fact that most all of it was founded on the 2000+ supposed 'visions' and almost 25,000,000 words writen by the SDA prophet and you have the recipe for nasty theology and doctrine (one of which is EGW herself). That is the basis you make the claim that they are more 'close to the Bible' than all other Christians.

If I could I would go there. The IJ has some problems but not major ones like many ex-adventists claim.
Yeah, it only denies the completed atonement of Christ, putting it off for 1800 years in order to fit with the failed 1844 dates from the Millerite movement, which Ellen White endorsed as a 'prophet'. And even then one cannot be sure of their salvation and they must perfect all character defects in themselves before his return or they will be lost. It's the SDA version of righteousness by works, and a sad one at that. There are huge problems and huge implications that stem from the IJ.

The issues with E.G.White so far as I can tell are spurious to say the least. Nit picking to find small things to complain about.
Well, we just saw one that I believe most of Christiandom would say is a major problem, not a 'nit picking' one. The SDA church has messed with the atonement Christ made at the cross.

I have read The Desire of Ages and The Great Controversy and both of these books blessed me greatly.
Keep reading. Many of us 'former' SDA's read and studied her line-by-line our whole lives. That's why it's easier for us to see the false teaching she promotes. I wouldn't expect those who hold a belief in her as a 'prophet' to be able to see it. But someone who establishes their beliefs from the Bible alone, not using the SDA proof-text method would not arrive at her interpretation of Scripture in many areas.
 
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ricker

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I have read The Desire of Ages and The Great Controversy and both of these books blessed me greatly.
Hi Jim! I's funny how different people apparently react to things differently. I can remember well exactly when I ceased to be an SDA. It was when I was reading Ellen's apocalyptic end-time scenario in the GC. I thought to myself there is no way I can believe this drivel about the whole world rising up against the Adventists. It reeked of a persecution complex. It was so far out of anything written in the Bible or what my common sense told me was within the realm of possibility. I'm sure the Spirit can use a variety of means to reach out to people, and I guess maybe He can even use EGW, but in my case I believe He used Ellen to lead me out of SDAism. God bless! Ricker
 
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freeindeed2

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Hi Jim! I's funny how different people apparently react to things differently. I can remember well exactly when I ceased to be an SDA. It was when I was reading Ellen's apocalyptic end-time scenario in the GC. I thought to myself there is no way I can believe this drivel about the whole world rising up against the Adventists. It reeked of a persecution complex. It was so far out of anything written in the Bible or what my common sense told me was within the realm of possibility. I'm sure the Spirit can use a variety of means to reach out to people, and I guess maybe He can even use EGW, but in my case I believe He used Ellen to lead me out of SDAism. God bless! Ricker
SDA's keep telling others to genuinely read Ellen and then make a judgment by what the Holy Spirit 'tells' them. So they do and the Holy Spirit tells them to run away from the false teachings, which they do, and then they say we're listening to the wrong 'spirits'.

As I have seen dozens of times, when people really begin to dig in EGW's writings, more and more stink can be detected, which is a good indication that something is rotten. Once other Christian's realize she taught an incomplete atonement at the cross, it's over. The rest is 'drivel' as you say.
 
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djconklin

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Hi Jim! I's funny how different people apparently react to things differently. I can remember well exactly when I ceased to be an SDA. It was when I was reading Ellen's apocalyptic end-time scenario in the GC. I thought to myself there is no way I can believe this drivel about the whole world rising up against the Adventists. It reeked of a persecution complex. It was so far out of anything written in the Bible or what my common sense told me was within the realm of possibility. I'm sure the Spirit can use a variety of means to reach out to people, and I guess maybe He can even use EGW, but in my case I believe He used Ellen to lead me out of SDAism. God bless! Ricker
We'll find out soon enough who knows what they are talking about.
 
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freeindeed2

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We'll find out soon enough who knows what they are talking about.
Jesus is the final and ultimate Word of God. Those who believe in Him for salvation and have his Spirit living in them have nothing to fear of the threats of man.
 
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