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Seventh-day Adventists and the Torah on the heart.

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thecountrydoc

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The OP of this thread as posted by tall73: This entire thread with it's 120 post has been a great waste of time. The waste of time is because the OP is greatly flawed. The poster appearently doesn't understand the difference between, and the origins of, the words torah and law. It is impossible to have any meaningful discourse when the subject is misunderstood. Before anyone has their time wasted in futile efforts trying to engage in any futher debate on this topic may I suggest some much needed research into the proposed topic as stated in the OP.

Respectfully,
Doc
 
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TrustAndObey

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I thought we already covered that in this thread?

I'm pretty sure every conversation I've ever had with someone that hates God's law has been an exercise in futility. Nothing new under the sun!
 
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VictorC

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The OP is about the Torah written on the heart and I contend that it's the SAME Torah written on Abraham's heart, so I'm totally on-topic Victor.
Abraham's heart?
Abraham didn't have the covenant mediated by Moses, so now you have departed from your own church's teachings.

I have done that in the past. It was Moses who testified that Abraham didn't receive the covenant he did, along with everyone prior to his own generation.
It is incumbent on you to document a covenant 430 years before it existed.
But, your theology is akin to applying laws regarding exhaust emissions to the Roman Empire, because it is still called by the same term of "law". As I mentioned before, you are still using the wrong legal term to apply to the covenant given at Sinai.

Let's really cut to the chase...you have absolutely no problem with the other 9 commandments and you know it.
I'm a Gentile, as I have mentioned more than once.
I never received 9 "commandments", ten "commandments", nor 613 "commandments".

You haven't explained how I managed to become reconciled to God in the face of a covenant you assert is still binding.

But, since you "keep" 9 "commandments", how do you explain this practice you're engaged in:

Many of us have noticed that those who claim they abide by the ten commandments have the hardest time with this one:
Exodus 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

You have no trouble violating this one, while claiming that you "keep" the other nine.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Galatians 5:3-4
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

The covenant is inseparable, and circumcision was imported from Abraham (Genesis 17:10) into Moses (Leviticus 12:1-3), spoken directly by God.

Offend in one point of Israel's "one law" and you have offended all of it.

The disposition:
Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

You leave yourself guilty before God, Lanie.

Do you have anything else of substance you would like to add?
Other than SDB missives, that were written 3000 years too late to change the testimony Moses left us?

Victor
 
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VictorC

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I see you edited your post...you must've checked the dates.
I proofread after I post, and find something I want to change fairly often (verb, noun, etc), but I have no idea what date you're referring to, since you replied to the OP.
 
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VictorC

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I hope that Tall73 returns to the thread he started, as I would appreciate his thoughts. However, we are dealing with more than simply the words used to describe 'law', as the context of the passage in question is referring to a specific covenant that is excluded. It isn't a reference to just any torah, but one that has an distinct origin and is easily identifiable.

I brought up these points in my original post God replaces the schoolmaster

Thanks for your observation. I tend to agree with the "waste of time", but for other reasons.

Victor
 
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Sophia7

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I proofread after I post, and find something I want to change fairly often (verb, noun, etc), but I have no idea what date you're referring to, since you replied to the OP.

I proofread after I post, too, and edit my posts all the time, which is why it drives me crazy that CARM won't let you edit posts after 45 minutes. T&O was talking to me because she replied to one of my posts while it was still in transition. I rewrote it about three times and then put it back to the way it was when she quoted it.
 
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VictorC

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I was talking to Sophia, Victor.
Unless you extend the courtesy of showing who it is you're responding to, I have absolutely no means of telling that.
Thank you for that clarification.

Victor
 
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Sophia7

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Tall is at work right now. I'm sure he'll come back to this thread when he has time.
 
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VictorC

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My friend is going to get a kick out of your comments about this teaching stemming straight from Ellen White considering the SDB church was around before the Adventist church.
Exodus 20:16
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

The only one who cares about the doctrines invented by another sect is you, Lanie.
My appeal is solely to Scripture, and the SDB's are still 3000 years too late to change the testimony given by Moses.

Victor
 
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VictorC

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This is about as relevent to the OP as tomatoes reproducing after their own seed.
 
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VictorC

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The first recorded Seventh Day Baptist meeting was at The Mill Yard Church, formed in London in 1653 under the leadership of Dr. Peter Chamberlen.

I'm thinking Ellen White wasn't even alive when this church formed, Victor.

Sorry.
Thank you.
I thought they came about 3000 years after Moses, and I see I wasn't too far off.
Perhaps you would like to review the transformation of the WCG after the death of Herbert Armstrong.

They, too, were sabbatarians - and realized they were a cult completely noncompliant with what the Bible teaches about the new covenant. They now teach that there is no sabbath ordinance they have as Christians, and they also realize that even when they thought there was one, they never kept it anyway.

Do you begin to appreciate how material gathered from sectarian sources instead of the Scriptures isn't regarded as authoritative by at least one party or the other? It just isn't a useful practice to engage in.

Victor
 
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TrustAndObey

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David wasn't a part of the New Covenant, yet God's law was within HIS heart.

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Did it take the New Covenant for God's will (His law) to be in the heart? No.

Abraham wasn't in any covenant with God when God gave the promised covenant to him. In fact, the promised covenant was the result of obedience and faith.

Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments (mitsvah), my statutes, and my laws (towrah).

BECAUSE ('eqeb) means consequence, gain, reward.

You can't sit there and portray a picture that God's will (His law) wasn't around before the covenant on Sinai. It just simply is not true.

God sanctified the seventh day at CREATION.

It didn't just pop up in Exodus 16, Victor.

It was not okay for Cain to murder Abel.

EIGHT people were spared from the flood. What were people guilty of if God didn't have any laws?

Sodom and Gomorrah had grievous sins.

Did God sanctify the seventh day before ANY covenants existed? Of course He did.

Not only that, but the promised covenant with Abraham INCLUDED the children of Isaac and Jacob (Israel).

During captivity the children of Israel (Jacob) did not obey God's law, and even when God tried to make them aware of His will, they were rebellious. (Exodus 16).

Exd 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

That was in regards to the Sabbath. God already called it His law then, and that was before He wrote it on stone and commanded the covenant from Sinai.

There are two sets of laws and you just never seem to consider that.

One set was added BECAUSE OF transgression.


And I am telling you that the law existed before ANY covenant and that God's will for His people hasn't changed...the consequences for disobeying His will has changed.

VictorC said:
I'm a Gentile, as I have mentioned more than once. I never received 9 "commandments", ten "commandments", nor 613 "commandments".

How about the Big Two....are those to your liking at all as a Gentile?


Who is several of us? Patti's church of CARM?

The Pharisees called, they'd like for you two to give them their job back.

If I've said anything about either one of you that isn't TRUE, please let me know what it was, and I will get down on my knees and beg your forgiveness.

It's not like I don't know you lurk in our forum, Victor.

VictorC said:
Galatians 3:10

I'm off the hook...whew. I've never been circumcised.

Was cirumcision written on stone?

VictorC said:
James 2:10

Who was murder imported from?

One law eh? Which laws were added BECAUSE OF sin?

VictorC said:
The disposition:
Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

You leave yourself guilty before God, Lanie.

You have your laws mixed up Victor and it's as simple as that.

If I were to start sacrificing animals and not accept the atonement through CHRIST'S blood, then you betcha, I'd be guilty, guilty, guilty.

(It's LAINIE by the way)

VictorC said:
Do you have anything else of substance you would like to add? Other than SDB missives, that were written 3000 years too late to change the testimony Moses left us?

Depends, do you still say "the peculiar teaching" of the law being around before it was written on stone was exclusive to Ellen White?

You're dead wrong if you do....but the whole world can see that already whether you admit it or not.
 
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TrustAndObey

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You're funny Victor...there are still some WCG that keep the Sabbath commandment. Did you not know that?

VictorC said:
Do you begin to appreciate how material gathered from sectarian sources instead of the Scriptures isn't regarded as authoritative by at least one party or the other? It just isn't a useful practice to engage in.

Victor

It was enough to prove you dead wrong about Ellen White's "peculiar teaching", so it's good enough for me.

Pride cometh before the fall.

Peace out. I'm done with you.
 
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Sophia7

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Just out of curiousity and nothing more, has Tall ever posted his 39-page essay about hell being temporal on CARM to face the scrutiny of all the kind folks there?

I don't know. I know that he has posted it in GT, but I'm not sure if he's posted it at CARM. There are actually a few former Adventists at CARM who still agree with the conditionalist view of hell, and we do talk about things like that there.
 
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thecountrydoc

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In the last few hours enough energy has been expended for everyone to make another 16 post. Unbelieveable!

Lainie my reason for saying that this whole discussion is an excersise in futility is not only because of the obvious differences expresessd but because of the lack of knowledge pertaining to the declaired topic of the OP. How is it possible to discuss and compare two items, the torah and the law, when they are two different items, produced by different writers, intended for different purposes at two different times? It is clear the question posed in the OP cannot be addressed without that question being a proper question in the first place.

Victor, may I remind you that this is not CARM. Please keep it within the guidelines of good taste.

Respectfully,
Doc / Seventh-day Adventist Forum Moderator
 
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tall73

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Actually I left it open for defining by the parties involved by asking what comprised the torah in this instance.

Moreover the term for law is used in the plural when the passage is quoted in Hebrews. So the question is valid.
 
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tall73

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Please note the use of the term nomous in Hebrews, which is translated laws. If you feel you know the definition of Torah in this instance then provide it, as the OP leaves that option to you.
 
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