Setting boundaries in marriage

hisbloodformysins · Feb 28, 2008

Don't know if this fits in a marriage forum, but i'll give it a try.

So some of you know i've been posting about my striving to set boundaries in my marriage. And those who have read the post may have posted or read many different responses in which I'm basically being told to ignore my needs and be selfless in indulging my husband's offensive behavior, because that is my duty as a loving spouse.

I'm not offended, that is not why i'm posting this. I'm accustomed to this line of thinking, and I guess that's why I feel lead to bring it up so we can all chat about it.

Boundary setting and Christianity... and in marriage.... that is such a difficult subject. Many times the question is asked- "this is my need and what I want to do, but what is my obligation" as far as dealing with someone who is overstepping your boundaries. So since this is in a marriage forum, let's focus it on marriage.

1. What is a violation of personal boundaries in marriage?

2. When is ok to set up those boundaries (like saying "this is what is ok with me, what i'll put up with, and this is what I won't put up with... here's the line, if you cross it, then these are going to be the consequences (often times natural consequences)

3. What do you think the word enabling means and in what areas in marriage do you think we might be enabling unhealthy dynamics?

4. As a christian, is it our right to put a stop to it, when is it ok to say no or stand up for our rights, is it considered sinful and selfish to do so?

5. So you agree on setting boundaries, but HOW might the appropriate way be in doing that?

These can be about anything that is near to your heart or that you want to comment on regarding christianity, marriage and boundary setting.

These are just a few broad questions. I'm very interested in hearing all your thoughts.

HB

DIANAC · Feb 28, 2008

I am afraid I have to read up on what is the popular understanding of setting the boundaries means. I do not know what it means. I just know that we are to love selflessly, to hate sin (1Cor 13: 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth), and to encourage one another towards good works.
Maybe you can be more specific.

hisbloodformysins · Feb 28, 2008

I'm sorry I was too vague. No, I really just wanted to start a discussion that could get pretty heavy, but not about any particular topic.

Since the area talked about in another post had to do with sex, i'll bring that one up. It'll get some interest I think, but i'm not bringing it up becuase I want to know what you all think. Simply for discussion.

So, let's say a woman (or man) has a spouse that is pushy when they want sex. The way they go about it is aggressive, not harmful aggressive, but let's say that grab at body parts, squeeze maybe a little to hard. Hold you down and tickly you. Basically they man handle you, and when you ask them to stop, they react by accusing you of rejecting them.

So, in this scenario... is it the wifes (or the husband's) duty to ignore the fact that they feel violated and give into the spouse, allow the aggressive behavior and as the bible says, not withhold their bodies... Should they just give themselves "selflessly" or do you feel it's appropriate for them the expect the offending spouse to treat them more respectfully before they will have sex with them?

HB

Yitzchak · Feb 28, 2008

I am afraid I have to read up on what is the popular understanding of setting the boundaries means. I do not know what it means. I just know that we are to love selflessly, to hate sin (1Cor 13: 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth), and to encourage one another towards good works.
Maybe you can be more specific.

There is a book written by christian counselors and the title is "boundaries". One of the things I remember from that book is a discussion of the scripture passage from Galatians 6 where it says in verse 2 to bear one another's burdens and in verse 5 for everyone to carry their own burden.

Now at first it seems like a contradiction but the authors discuss the two different greek words used in the original greek. One means a unusually large boulder that no one can carry alone and the other means a small burden whcih is doable. Of course , the authors explain it much better..I am going on memory from several years back.

But the point is we should help someone when thye are overwhelmed and actauuly need the help... But there is a verse somewhere also that says if a man will not work he should not eat...which speaks of us not carrying other people's responsibilities for them just because they are lazy....

So this can be with a job or with emotional issues also...The book opens with a description of the day of a woman without boundaries...people ask her to do things and she cannot say no to the point where it is too much and she is collapsing under it.

Yitzchak · Feb 28, 2008

Some examples might be a person who calls at 3am because they got a job at the all night 7-11 and are bored....now lets say I work day shift and have to be up at 5am and have three children depending upon me also...Do I allow them to keep me up half the night for frivolous talk until I finally drop from exhaustion a week later ?

Yitzchak · Feb 28, 2008

Joyce Meyer has a teaching about dysfunctional relationships and she points out that if we have no boundaries , we are actaully allowing another person to control us rather than The Holy Spirit.....

How can we be led by The Holy Spirit if we lack self control in the sense that others make our decisions for us...So let's say for example God calls me to pray on a certain day and then this person I can't say no to calls and wants to go to the mall......

Imagine a pastor with no boundaries...It is sunday morning and time for him to preach but he is not there.....The reason , his unsaved uncle called and wanted to go fishing and the pastor can't say no and so he goes.

Yitzchak · Feb 28, 2008

So I guess boundaries is saying no sometimes instead of giving everyone whatever they want or ask or demand of us.

hisbloodformysins · Feb 28, 2008

Yitzchak said:
There is a book written by christian counselors and the title is "boundaries". One of the things I remember from that book is a discussion of the scripture passage from Galatians 6 where it says in verse 2 to bear one another's burdens and in verse 5 for everyone to carry their own burden.

Now at first it seems like a contradiction but the authors discuss the two different greek words used in the original greek. One means a unusually large boulder that no one can carry alone and the other means a small burden whcih is doable. Of course , the authors explain it much better..I am going on memory from several years back.

But the point is we should help someone when thye are overwhelmed and actauuly need the help... But there is a verse somewhere also that says if a man will not work he should not eat...which speaks of us not carrying other people's responsibilities for them just because they are lazy....

So this can be with a job or with emotional issues also...The book opens with a description of the day of a woman without boundaries...people ask her to do things and she cannot say no to the point where it is too much and she is collapsing under it.

There is also a scripture that says that if a brother offends you, talk to him about it, if he doesn't reprent, bring a witness, if he still doesn't repent, bring it to the church, and if he still doesn't repent, have nothing more to do with him. The apostle paul said that i believe.

That shows that he cares about how others treat us and it's ok to set limits. Doesn't mean there is no room for forgiveness, but there is also room for limits. If we don't understand when it's ok to set limits, emotional, physical, mental then we may enable people to treat us badly or in a way that is offensive to us. What is offensive for one, may not be offensive to the other. But what's important is that we can respect eachother's limits. If say a friend calls me and wants to spend an hour complaining about her problems, EVERY SINGLE DAY (yup, had a friend like that) and well, you have kids running around, things to do, your own problems. Is it ok to say as kindly as possible "beulla, i'm sorry that you are feeling down, but I really need you to limit your calls to once a week instead of every day".... and that person says "well, that's just selfish", hangs up, then calls the next day to "test that limit".... then would you agree with her, or would you step out in your god given right and assert that boundary with her. Would you feel selfish? Or confident in the situation? Some christians really struggle with these things.

Everyone has that something in their hearts communicates their comfort level. Like for example, maybe I prefer to watch a movie without others talking, but i may be friends with a personality that prefers to talk, and would put me down treating me like i'm bad because i care too much about what's on the t.v.... and everyone else with her who's at your house agrees with her. So, does that mean she's right? Nope. that means she just completely disrespected you, and that my friend is "unbiblical" because we are to love and treat one another with consideration.

Setting personal boundaries has to do with becoming confident in the value of your needs, and asserting those needs. An example of assering those needs would be in the above example sitting the friend down and saying "you know, it is important to me to be able to watch a movie without it being interrupted, maybe you don't understand that or it's not important to you, but it's important to me. So from now I'd prefer to watch the movies by myself because I am too bothered when others are talking" something along those lines. It's about standing up for your feelings, it helps self esteem and it's not like you are hurting or sinning against the other person. They may be offended, but you are not responsible for that feeling, their feeling is their own choice, you are not trying to hurt them, just stand up for you.

Pretty simple, know what i mean?

Yitzchak · Feb 28, 2008

I thought about this also...if two people ask me to do conflicting things and I can't set any limits upon anyone it could get to be a big problem very quickly....

Imagine if I gave away all our money because I couldn't say no and then spent the night with some lonely woman because she asked and I couldn't say no...How would that effect my wife ?

So there must be a place for limits or we would not be able to keep our commitments and responsibilities....

So why then do we suddenly lose our common sense in these matters when it comes to our spouses or our parents and other close relationships ? It is never easy to say no but espeacially difficult when we care about the person and they know all the right buttons to push in us.

Yitzchak · Feb 28, 2008

So the obvious question that arises once it is established that we can and should say no sometimes is how do we decide when to say yes and when to say no?

What boundaries are biblical ?

DIANAC · Feb 29, 2008

I don't know, but setting the boundaries concept sounds like a modern psychology, very much a new age.
What you call boundaries, I call a common sense, a sense of duty and a wisdom.
* When people linger after the Bible Study in my house into late hours and I have to get up at 5AM for work, I do tell them that, nicely.
* If someone in our Bible Study group is in distress and a special attention is needed, yes, we do stay up late to minister to that person.
* When someone calls everyday to chit-chat and the children are running around unfed, children's needs do come first.
* When I get a late night call from a sick parent or an in-law, yes, I drop everything and go.
* Between a husband and wife in their personal relations, standard of behavior are set by BOTH spouses. People differ. Something that is tame for one could be considered outrageous by another. Spouses have to adapt to each other's ways. More importantly, BOTH parties have to act lovingly and patiently.

hisbloodformysins · Feb 29, 2008

DIANAC said:
I don't know, but setting the boundaries concept sounds like a modern psychology, very much a new age.
What you call boundaries, I call a common sense, a sense of duty and a wisdom.
* When people linger after the Bible Study in my house into late hours and I have to get up at 5AM for work, I do tell them that, nicely.
* If someone in our Bible Study group is in distress and a special attention is needed, yes, we do stay up late to minister to that person.
* When someone calls everyday to chit-chat and the children are running around unfed, children's needs do come first.
* When I get a late night call from a sick parent or an in-law, yes, I drop everything and go.
* Between a husband and wife in their personal relations, standard of behavior are set by BOTH spouses. People differ. Something that is tame for one could be considered outrageous by another. Spouses have to adapt to each other's ways. More importantly, BOTH parties have to act lovingly and patiently.

Now now, don't judge something because you don't like the fancy word put to it and it's not a "new age" thing assuming new age thing is alternate religion, it is a "psycho babble" word... it's a word defining drawing the line. Some of the illustrations I gave are common sense... but some things are a little less clear to people. An example I read in a book is a woman complaining to her husband that he is late from work everyday.... dinner is cold when he gets home, she'd atleast like a phone call... and his response? He blows her off. So she responds by having dinner on time with the kids, and leaving him a plate wrapped up. When he gets home, there is no one to sit and eat dinner with him... and eventually he really gets to disliking it so he starts making an effort to get home on time.

That is another common sense scenario actually.... but some people really struggle with "setting boundaries". I personally like that word, I know exactly what is meant by it without a situation having to be described.

My situation is that my husband has ignored my complaint/request over and over and over again to not grab at me aggressive, squeezing my body and private parts... doing pelvic thrusts on me like a dog... when he's in the mood. It is a personal trigger for me... oh wait, that is another psychobabble word... I mean it reminds of past ways i've been treated by men that makes me feel used.....ok, my issues, not his fault. Nevertheless I have attempted to explain to him that it is a turn off, it makes me mad, I don't like it... I don't like being handled aggressively... please don't do it. If you are feeling amerous then find other ways of going about it..... I have even given him ideas of what I like. And his response? He blows me off, or gets defensive, or minimizes meaning acts like my complaint isn't a big deal.... and he continues to do it. You see, another poster here commented that she likes that kind of behavior, atleast I'm assuming that is what she meant..... however, "I" do not. I know my limits as a human being, and I know that that is a behavior I cannot tolerate, and do not feel obligated to.

When I posted about this situation a lot of responses are that I need to ignore my feelings and be a loving and selfless wife and just give myself to him selflessly.

Well, I disagree. I do not feel like that is what
christ wants of me... though others would argue with that. In scenario... i'm feeling bullied and violated.... I cannot and will not give myself to someone when I am feeling that wayl and do not feel i'm obligated to stuff my feelings. So, i'm learning how to boundary set and maybe say "I have told you how this makes me feel and you ignore me, from now on when you behave this way i'm just going to leave the room, go take a bath (not using that in the way it was suggested btw) and you can take care of the kids yourself while I'm doing this, because at this moment I need to take care of me and get away from that offensive behavior so that I don't explode" My husband responds "you don't love me, blah blah blah" if I "set that boundary" with him.... I've atempted to talk to him about "his" issues regarding this... and he admits he feels rejected, and I've attempted to try to explain that that behavior is one that rubs against my personality and I just cannot tolerate giving all my reasons. I've asked him to be more gentle and given him other ideas of how he can get my attention. But he is stubborn, and continues his behavior. In his mind he thinks he's going to force me to change my expectations and do it ihis way. He needs to learn in one way or another that he has to respect other people's feelings and "boundaries" instead of insisting on everyone doing things his way. He has an issue with that in areas, an issue he needs to get over. If I were to give in, he wouldn't learn how to be less selfish himself. That would be an "enabling" behavior meaning it would just reinforce it and he'd have no need to stop doing it. "Enabling" is a common term used to describe how co-dependant people respond to their alcoholic partners. Instead of contronting it and setting boundaries, they make excuses which just reinforces it. That is not healthy you are not doing people any favors when you enable their unhealthy behaviors.

A lot of christian women might struggle in this situation and be here saying "what is god's will that I do? Do I act 'selflessly' and give myself without any concern of MY needs at that time, is it "selfish" to "assert boundaries " or in lay man's terms "say no"... am I not to "withhold my body?" as the bible says...

YOu see, to me and some of you it's common sense that I stand up for myself.... but to many others, esp. christians it is a confusing and condemning ordeal.

Do others here have areas where you feel offended and are just not sure how to set boundaries or handle it?

HB

Yitzchak · Feb 29, 2008

I don't know, but setting the boundaries concept sounds like a modern psychology, very much a new age.
What you call boundaries, I call a common sense, a sense of duty and a wisdom.
* When people linger after the Bible Study in my house into late hours and I have to get up at 5AM for work, I do tell them that, nicely.
* If someone in our Bible Study group is in distress and a special attention is needed, yes, we do stay up late to minister to that person.
* When someone calls everyday to chit-chat and the children are running around unfed, children's needs do come first.
* When I get a late night call from a sick parent or an in-law, yes, I drop everything and go.
* Between a husband and wife in their personal relations, standard of behavior are set by BOTH spouses. People differ. Something that is tame for one could be considered outrageous by another. Spouses have to adapt to each other's ways. More importantly, BOTH parties have to act lovingly and patiently.

It is common sense but the problem is that there are people who are not used to being told no or having limits put upon them. Many are starved for love , but they never learned the common sense of someone telling them no doesn't mean that they hate them or are rejecting them....Some people need this spelled out because they have transfered this thinking into the church and use the bible taken out of context or taken to an extreme to teach that a woman can never say no to their husband....That a pastor can never say no to someone in need.....They bully and guilt people into a false obligation to never say no. They have an incomplete and unbiblical view of proper authority.

This is a common problem in many homes and churches that people want their own way and rebel against proper authority. Because at it's root we are speaking about authority. In this case, the God given authority of an individual to have the freedom to make their own choices. Individual free will and authority is not given up completely when one enters the marriage covenant . Standing against manipulation is not new age and as for whether it is psychology , there is certainly an element that is but you say psychology as if it is a dirty word. God has called some to work in that field to help people as counselors.

Anyway , I see this issue as an issue of rebellion at it's root. It is one form of the chastisement of The Lord that we have to take no for an answer sometimes. When we disrespect another person and won't accept that no is no we are in rebellion against God. This is quite common..Just look at the posts in this forum....People don't like to not have their way and will use even the bible to try to force their way in a situation where God has shut that door.

I find it amazing that you have not experienced this type of thing...There are many who don't take limits being set upon them peacefully.

hisbloodformysins · Feb 29, 2008

Yitzchak said:
whether it is psychology , there is certainly an element that is but you say psychology as if it is a dirty word. God has called some to work in that field to help people as counselors.

quote]

THANK YOU! A lot of people have a prejudice against the psychiatric field. That is exactly what it is, a prejudice! Which if it were me I'd want to deal with, like I deal with my other personal prejudices.

I'm a psychiatric nurse though and I LOVE psych. It definitely has it's place in society. Too bad others aren't more respecting of it.

By the way, I revised my post... it was too confusing

HB

DIANAC · Feb 29, 2008

Yitzchak said:
I find it amazing that you have not experienced this type of thing...There are many who don't take limits being set upon them peacefully.

Does my post imply that I did not experience this sort of thing or the opposite?

Yitzchak · Feb 29, 2008

A common area where husbands have trouble setting boundaries is with parents and with work..It is my place to set the boundaries with my parents ( I say parents but really it is usually my mother..the whole mother in law power struggle). It should not be left to my wife to set the boundaries with my parents while I sit passively by. In the area of work there are times when many businesses nowadays try to cut back costs by running without much of a margin when it comes to workers so if someone calls off sick or something goes wrong , they call upon the most responsible employees again and again..Once again it is my place to set the boundary that i have the choice to say no about staying and working someone else's shift or going in on my day off. One of the ways that a husband loves his wife is by having proper priorities and saying no to those who want to make plans that effectively cancel the plans that the family has...

Even at church , It is quite difficult to set boundaries sometimes...One example is my wife and I both agreed when we got married that we felt God was leading us to not be seperated at church.That we would minister together and worship together...There is so much pressure as soon as you enter the door of the church to seperate into men's groups and women's groups.God has told us again and again that our strength is together and not seperate. So it is actually a boundary that God told me to set...but it is sometimes difficult espeacially when we have gone to a new church and they are all friendly and welcoming and then feel rejected somehow if i don't want to go to the men's group.I have even had people get downright agressive and insulting about it....Thank God that Jesus let me know clearly what His will was in this area.

Rembrandtfan · Feb 29, 2008

hisbloodformysins said:
I'm sorry I was too vague. No, I really just wanted to start a discussion that could get pretty heavy, but not about any particular topic.

Since the area talked about in another post had to do with sex, i'll bring that one up. It'll get some interest I think, but i'm not bringing it up becuase I want to know what you all think. Simply for discussion.

So, let's say a woman (or man) has a spouse that is pushy when they want sex. The way they go about it is aggressive, not harmful aggressive, but let's say that grab at body parts, squeeze maybe a little to hard. Hold you down and tickly you. Basically they man handle you, and when you ask them to stop, they react by accusing you of rejecting them.

So, in this scenario... is it the wifes (or the husband's) duty to ignore the fact that they feel violated and give into the spouse, allow the aggressive behavior and as the bible says, not withhold their bodies... Should they just give themselves "selflessly" or do you feel it's appropriate for them the expect the offending spouse to treat them more respectfully before they will have sex with them?

HB

I understand what you're saying HB, about boundaries, and I think you're right. Boundaries are not New Age psychology, but a means to protect ourselves from being violated physically or emotionally. Cloud and Townsend have taken an old concept and given it a name, and put it in terminology where we can understand it.

As to this husband and wife scenario, if she feels violated, it is real to her, whether he intended it that way or not. Telling someone you are not comfortable with how they do something and asking them to do it differently, is not selfish. It is not the same as the wife saying "don't touch me at all" or "no, I won't give you sex." If he knows how his wife is feeling violated, and insists on doing it the same way, he is not being considerate of his wife's needs. That seems more selfish, to me. And the "you're just rejecting me" is to let himself off the hook and place the blame on his wife.

hisbloodformysins · Feb 29, 2008

Yitzchak said:
A common area where husbands have trouble setting boundaries is with parents and with work..It is my place to set the boundaries with my parents ( I say parents but really it is usually my mother..the whole mother in law power struggle). It should not be left to my wife to set the boundaries with my parents while I sit passively by. In the area of work there are times when many businesses nowadays try to cut back costs by running without much of a margin when it comes to workers so if someone calls off sick or something goes wrong , they call upon the most responsible employees again and again..Once again it is my place to set the boundary that i have the choice to say no about staying and working someone else's shift or going in on my day off. One of the ways that a husband loves his wife is by having proper priorities and saying no to those who want to make plans that effectively cancel the plans that the family has...

Even at church , It is quite difficult to set boundaries sometimes...One example is my wife and I both agreed when we got married that we felt God was leading us to not be seperated at church.That we would minister together and worship together...There is so much pressure as soon as you enter the door of the church to seperate into men's groups and women's groups.God has told us again and again that our strength is together and not seperate. So it is actually a boundary that God told me to set...but it is sometimes difficult espeacially when we have gone to a new church and they are all friendly and welcoming and then feel rejected somehow if i don't want to go to the men's group.I have even had people get downright agressive and insulting about it....Thank God that Jesus let me know clearly what His will was in this area.

That's awsome yitchak! Not to put my husband down about this... but he lacks in those areas. I can definetely see the benefit of the man (or woman) showing their love by setting appropriate boundaries. My husband defends his mom and seems much more dedicated to work then family, which all makes me feel unloved and the least important to him. Of course he doesn't have a good role model, his dad is the same way. My MIL will whine and complain because she wants new furniture.. that is something very important to her, and he won't spend a dime (exagerting just a little.... well, a lot.. but the point is the same) but he'll go out and just splurge on things for himself or willingly buy furniture for his children and what not.

My husband doesn't and his father don't seem to see the value in honoring their wives in these scenarios... but treat us less then children sometimes because they think it's for our own good.

So Good for you yitchak, i'm impressed!

hisbloodformysins · Feb 29, 2008

Rembrandtfan said:
I understand what you're saying HB, about boundaries, and I think you're right. Boundaries are not New Age psychology, but a means to protect ourselves from being violated physically or emotionally. Cloud and Townsend have taken an old concept and given it a name, and put it in terminology where we can understand it.

As to this husband and wife scenario, if she feels violated, it is real to her, whether he intended it that way or not. Telling someone you are not comfortable with how they do something and asking them to do it differently, is not selfish. It is not the same as the wife saying "don't touch me at all" or "no, I won't give you sex." If he knows how his wife is feeling violated, and insists on doing it the same way, he is not being considerate of his wife's needs. That seems more selfish, to me. And the "you're just rejecting me" is to let himself off the hook and place the blame on his wife.

Yup, he is a master at feining blame and making things my fault (rolling my eyes)

It's nice that someone else sees that!

HB

Yitzchak · Feb 29, 2008

Does my post imply that I did not experience this sort of thing or the opposite?

When I read your post , I got out of it that you did not think this was not that much of a problem. Just a little bump in the road taken in stride. Which is fine .

But in my life I have had to fight for this thing tooth and nail at times even for my very emotional survival.If I told my mother I had to get up early and cut the visit short we would have a battle for a month with her bringing it up several times and maybe even suggesting that I am at the wrong job that I have to get up early..And if my wife was the one to make the suggestion , the battle would be six months because then there were two control issues to deal with instead of just one. I have had bosses threaten to fire me for not staying for a double shift or working on sunday and missing church even when we had an agreement up front about my schedule when they hired me which they changed without discussion or notice....I have had to take it up the chain of command in order to keep my job.I have had to repeat myself several times to other family members who seems to be agreeable with the time constraints of visits until the time comes to actually leave and then I am in the place of reminding them and have them be offended...one time my father in law said he might as well not even come to visit if it is cut short like that...even after a five hour visit and a discussion beforehand about the need for a time constraint because of other plans that were important to us...So now it is either cancel our plans or havea big fight.....

So I guess I would say , yes , you seemed to imply that you don't have those type of battles to fight in your life.

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