serving Communion... Can we go over this again please?

MarkRohfrietsch said:

Did he also celebrate the Service of the Sacrament, or was he assisting the Pastor with the distribution?

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Studeclunker said:

I have a wee problem and would appreciate the LCMS pastors take on this.


This past Sunday I recieved Communion from a Lay-Pastor. He wasn't ordained and yet is still referred to with the title of Revrand. I'm confused. As far as my knowledge goes, only an ordained pastor should serve Communion. It's completely improper for a layman of any kind to preside over the distribution of the elements.

The man was listed on the bulletin as Rev. such and such and so I thought he must be ordained. WRONG!! Not being sure, I asked him after service. It really upset me when he said, quite blithely as a matter of fact, that he wasn't. He didn't even have a problem, as a layman, serving communion. I felt decieved and frankly... betrayed. At an ELCA church I would expect this kind of thing. Never at an LCMS.

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RadMan said:

I've had trouble with "sacraments" part of it also. If the church calls a pastor and passes the Keys then it would seem that the pastor has the only right to give communion. But Luther also mentions that if there is no ordained pastor available that a called person from the congregation can perform the sacraments. This seems to be upheld by comments from the BOC that the sacraments are valid no matter what the beliefs or sinful nature of the administrator is. I haven't reviewed the references in the BOC or Luther's Works for this yet so my memory might be faulty.

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Studeclunker said:

I thought that a congregation calling anyone in to the office of pastor (in any occasion) who's outside the LCMS roster was a serious no-no.

As to the book Of Concord, I believe you're half-right, Rad. I'll have to go over it again, but I believe that even there it designates a called and ordained pastor to preside over communion.

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maylor said:

It sounds to me like LCMS churches do not use council members in this way.

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maylor said:

My church (WELS) has an assistant, an elder, help with the distribution. He comes first with the Body, saying something along the lines of "This is the true Body of our Lord, which is given for you, take and eat". Now, I've been a member for less than a year and I had just assumed that it was always an elder who helped with this. I was recently asked by our president to take on the financial secretary job which is a council member position. I was voted in last week, and I thought my only duty was to enter contribution amounts into the computer. Now I find out that council members are required to assist with the distribution and I've been told to assist for the month of October. I really don't think I'm qualified to help with the distribution of the Sacrament. I don't know what to do about this. I'm thinking of talking with pastor about my concerns and see what he has to say on the matter.

It sounds to me like LCMS churches do not use council members in this way.

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DaRev said:

From the Augustana:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Article XIV: Of Ecclesiastical Order.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Of Ecclesiastical Order they teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called. [/FONT]




No. The LCMS usually uses Elders or Deacons for this. Council members do not assist with the pastoral functions unless they are also elders or deacons.

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DaRev said:

So, why have pastors then? I guess we're all just useless, power hungry, heretics.
What a waste of 20 grand.

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ctay said:

That layman at the church I had been going to, they sent a letter to the district to ask if they could hire this layman parttime. Around easter time I got chewed out by his wife for something she did. A couple of people witnessed it, said it was uncalled for and one of them said it was something this lady and the youth should have did. I've been to this church once in the past 2 months now. Really hadn't been anywhere. The church my parents go to the pastor sent a card to my parents house, she lost it but she said it said something about me coming to a new members class. I thought I just had to transfer and I grew up Lutheran. I was at this other church, the pastor of this church is interim pastor of the church I had been going to, I told him I wanted to transfer, he told me I needed to stay where I was at. I am frustrated right now.

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Since the mediate call is extended through men (the Church), we must consider also the question who the men are by whom God duly calls His ministers. The Romanists claim that only the Pope has authority to create bishops and their assistants. The Episcopalians teach that ordination by the bishop confers the highest orders. Romanizing Lutherans hold that Christian ministers owe their pastoral authority to “the estate of the ministry” (der geistliche Stand), which is self-propagating. In other cases, princes or ruling bodies in the Church have claimed the right to call and ordain ministers.
However, Holy Scripture ascribes this power to call to all true believers, since to them Christ has entrusted the Office of the Keys, Matt. 18:17; 1 Cor. 5:4, 13; 3:21. Christ’s Great Commission, Matt. 28:19, 20, was meant not only for the apostles, but for all Christians; for He states expressly: “I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” By virtue of their spiritual priesthood all believers “unto the end of the world” possess the inherent right to preach the Gospel and to administer the Sacraments. Since, then, all Christian believers are entrusted with the means of grace, it is their privilege to call pastors, or ministers, who in their name publicly apply the means of grace. Cp. Luther: “That some are chosen from the multitude is done for the reason that they, as representatives of the congregation, should administer and execute the office [ministerial office], which they all have.” (St. L., IX, 1174.&#65279
But while the communion of all believers constitutes the Church Universal, it is not to the ecclesia universalis as such that Christ has given the power to call and ordain ministers, but rather to the local churches (ecclesiae particulares), as is clear from Matt. 18:17–20; 1 Cor. 5:13; etc. The Smalcald Articles rightly say (Of the Power and Primacy of the Pope, § 67–69): “Wherever there is a true church, the right to elect and ordain ministers necessarily exists.” (Cp. also Luther, St. L., XVII, 1074ff.)
Individual persons or representative bodies may duly call ministers for others, but only if they, either directly or by consent, tacito consensu, have received authority to do so from those who originally possess the right to call, principaliter et immediate, that is, from local churches.
Against the exclusive right of the local congregations to call their ministers various objections have been raised, of which we may note the following:—
Mueller, J. T. (1999, c1934). Christian dogmatics (electronic ed.) (571). St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House.​

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Yet, while this is true, it is true also that our Confessions, in accord with Scripture, Matt. 18:17–20; 1 Cor. 5:13; Rom. 16:17; 1 Pet. 2:9, expressly teach that the Office of the Keys belongs to the whole Church and that Christian ministers therefore hold their office by virtue of their call from their churches. The Smalcald Articles say (Of the Power and Primacy of the Pope, 67–69): “Wherever the Church is, there is the authority [command] to administer the Gospel. Therefore it is necessary for the Church to retain the authority to call, elect, and ordain ministers. And this authority is a gift that in reality is given to the Church, which no human power can wrest from the Church …. Hence, wherever there is a true church, the right to elect and ordain ministers necessarily exists …. Here belong the statements of Christ which testify that the keys have been given to the Church, and not merely to certain persons, Matt. 18:20. Lastly, also the statement of Peter confirms this, 1 Pet. 2:9. These words pertain to the Church, which certainly has the right to elect and ordain ministers since it alone has the priesthood.” While, then, all Christian ministers who are duly called are “fellow-elders” (συνπρεσβύτεροι) of the blessed apostles, 2 John 1; 3 John 1; 1 Cor. 3:5—9, they are elders and bishops (ministers, pastors) not through any “apostolic succession” nor through any “self-propagation of the clerical estate,” but solely by virtue of the call which they have received from their churches. In other words, it is alone the divine call extended to them mediately through the local congregation that makes them “fellow-elders” of the apostles.
Mueller, J. T. (1999, c1934). Christian dogmatics (electronic ed.) (574). St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House.​

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Mueller, J. T. (1999, c1934). Christian dogmatics (electronic ed.) (574). St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House.



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ctay said:

That layman at the church I had been going to, they sent a letter to the district to ask if they could hire this layman parttime. Around easter time I got chewed out by his wife for something she did. A couple of people witnessed it, said it was uncalled for and one of them said it was something this lady and the youth should have did. I've been to this church once in the past 2 months now. Really hadn't been anywhere. The church my parents go to the pastor sent a card to my parents house, she lost it but she said it said something about me coming to a new members class. I thought I just had to transfer and I grew up Lutheran. I was at this other church, the pastor of this church is interim pastor of the church I had been going to, I told him I wanted to transfer, he told me I needed to stay where I was at. I am frustrated right now.

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Studeclunker said:

um... Rad? That's not giving up, it's called biting sarcasm. {here's where an OUCH smiley would work well}

Therein though, lies the rub. To what purpose do we call a Pastor if not to exercise the Office Of the Keys on behalf of the congregation (Church). Yes, the Office belongs to the Church, that I've never debated. The point is; whom is to exercise it? Do we not call our Pastors to this very office? Is not the Office Of the Keys not the very essence of the Pastoral call? Are we to blithely offer communion whenever or wherever the mood strikes? How about baptism, marriage, burials, or confession (God forbid!!)? These duties have traditionally been the venue of a Pastor. Surely, he doesn't just stand in front of a congregation of a Sunday and give a nice Biblically based speech.

Also one thing I almost forgot; Ordination also assures a congregation that the individual is competant and understands the requirements of the position of 'Pastor'. That he understands the Office of the Keys and will execute it with respect and due reverance. Elsewise, what's the point of a Seminary training? Not to mention the waste of considerable resources by the Church to support said Seminary.

This is my take... my understanding on the subject. I'm not trying to pontificate, just get my... head straight on this. Sunday service really shook me up.

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PreachersWife2004 said:

It sounds as though it is a personality difference between you and the layman's wife. To me, that's not a good enough reason to transfer churches. Round these parts, though, people transfer from church to church like they're country clubs. We've lost a lot of our own members because they switched to the church associated with the school because three churches joined together and our members wanted to be where the young kids were. It never occurred to them what they were doing to Mt Olive's youth population. We now have exactly five kids in our church. My four and one other child whose attendance is spotty at best.

But I think really transferring churches shouldn't be done regularly. If you're moving, that's fine, if there's some heretical teachings going on then of course you should transfer but someone should be notified - in our case it would be the synodical level (WELS).

As for communion, we generally allow elders to help serve. Very rarely do we encounter a situation where we don't have a pastor to preside over communion. In our church specific, we have a retired pastor who gives Matt and I communion, and who will disperse communion if Matt is ill, but Matt still does the presiding. In some churches, the church council and the elders are synonymous. That's how it is in our church. But in my old church, it was usually the president of the congregation who was called to assist first, and then it was the principal of the school on down the line through the male teachers and THEN it would be an elder.

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