this is posted for critique as per agreed guidelines from this thread
http://www.christianforums.com/t1171518-new-to-leadership.html
please comply or do not reply(hey that rhymes)
Ok everyone brace yourselves, Im going to talk about the most dreaded subject in Christianity, finance, giving, donations, responsibility, what is often referred to as the tithe or tithing. Many Christians use the word tithe to refer to the freely given financial support they gift to the ministry. There is nothing wrong with this, however it is important to realize the difference between giving to the work of God and the required 10% of the Old Testament.
The concept of the tithe or tenth is never discussed as a requirement in the New Testament.
Giving, however is discussed throughout the New Testament. Sharing among each other is often mentioned and the subject of church support is always referred to as giving, not tithing. I feel this is an important distinction. A tithe is a required tenth of your income. Giving as you are able takes the all-important concepts of love and faith.
It is important to realize why the law existed. Before Jesus sacrifice it was impossible to have a love relationship with God. Without a loving relationship with God there has to exist something to guide people. The law was made not to condemn mankind but to guide them, however it was only a shadow of what true love is. This is what Jesus was pointing out in-
Mark 2:27 ISV Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath.(we were not put here to serve the law, the law was put here for our benefit)
Now law can never be what love is. It can only be a shadow, a poor copy, a cheap imitation of true love. Without a loving relationship with God the law is absolutely necessary. If the Israelites were not commanded to give in support of the ministry, the poor, and even to themselves as a reminder that they received it all from God, THEY WOULDNT HAVE, PERIOD.
This law was laid out for them in Deuteronomy 14:22-29
Deut 14:22-29
22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.
(this tithe as it is expounded upon in numbers 18:24 was for the Levites because they were set aside as a priesthood and owned no lands of their own)
23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.
24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away),
25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose.
26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.
(this is a second tithe that was to be eaten at the temple, whether the temporary one in early days or the one built later, as a reminder of all that God had done for you in the last year)
27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.
28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns,
29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.
(there is debate over whether this was instead of the second tithe or in addition to it)
(NIV)
so basically the law said,
a. support the priesthood, with a tenth of all you bring in
b. the priesthood cannot own anything
c. every year go to the temple with a tenth of all you own
d. use that tenth to have a party to God, as a reminder of all he has done for you
e. every third year either in addition to or instead of your party to God give the priests and everyone in the town that cannot support themselves or anyone who happens to be passing through a tenth of all you made that year so they can have a party to God
These regulations were for a specific system, at a specific time, and most importantly for a people without a personal relationship with God. The letter of this law no longer applies to someone who is in relationship with God. The spirit of these commands, however, does still apply.
Support your church leadership, especially if they depend solely on the church for support. (I would like to point out that it is usually far better for a church to have a pastor who can devote his full attention to church matters, so ideally, we should provide enough support that the pastor doesnt have to hold down another job, especially if the congregation is a large one.)
Give thanks to God continually for all he does for you. Celebrate his works in your life and acknowledge that God provides everything to you.
Support and help people that cannot support themselves.
Be kind to people passing through, help them out.
These are what I call NO DUH principles. If you have a loving relationship with God these are things you do, period.
The reason, as I said before, for a law was because there was no personal relationship with God. Without that relationship people just dont act out of love. Without relationship law is necessary, with relationship its not.
For instance if God had not ordered the other tribes to support the Levites, they WOULDNT HAVE, or if he hadnt given them specific instructions on how to do it, you can bet the priesthood would have lived pretty ****** lives. Sure they would have had a place to stay, (probably resembling a homeless shelter) and food. (Whatever the other tribes didnt want)
If you step back and look at the tribes you will begin to see the math:
a. 12 tribes
1. 1 a priesthood
2. 11 working land owners
b. a tenth from each
c. math 11x10%=110%
The priesthood under this system was pretty much guaranteed to do about as well as the next guy.
God didnt give the tithe law because it was the perfect way to do things, he gave the tithe law because without a relationship with him people are stubborn selfish inconsiderate idiots. If you arent specific theyll find a way around it. Heck even though he was they still found ways around it.
The point is there is a reason the tenth is never addressed in reference to the new covenant: it represented the flawed system that was done away with. The new covenant is about an unconditional, loving relationship between you and God.
Matthew 7:22-23 ISV Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn't we?' (23) Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"(emphasis added)
Notice He doesnt deny that they spoke in His name, He points out the lack of relationship.
Now I am not saying that we are not called to support the ministry. If we love God we will support the people who have dedicated themselves to spreading his word, just as we should. Paul addressed this issue very well in:
1 Corinthians 9:2-14 ISV (2) If I am not an apostle to other people, surely I am one to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord! (3) This is my defense to those who would examine me: (4) We have the right to eat and drink, don't we? (5) We have the right to take a believing wife with us like the other apostles, the Lord's brothers, and Cephas, don't we? (6) Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? (7) Who would ever go to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat any of its grapes? Or who takes care of a flock and does not drink any of its milk? (8) I am not saying this on human authority, am I? The law says the same thing, doesn't it? (9) For in the law of Moses it is written, "You must not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." God is not only concerned about oxen, is he? (10) Isn't he really speaking on our behalf? Yes, this was written on our behalf, because the one who plows should plow in hope, and the one who threshes should thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. (11) If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap material benefits from you? (12) If others enjoy this right over you, don't we have a stronger claim? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with everything in order not to put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. (13) You know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple and that those who serve at the altar get their share of its offerings, don't you? (14) In the same way, the Lord has ordered that those who proclaim the gospel should make their living from the gospel.
Paul makes it clear that we are called to support the ministry. Paul is not ordering the Corinthians to pay him, but he is reminding them that it is their duty to support the church. He reminds them not of the letter of the law but of the intention behind the law. Aka the spirit of the law.
In second Corinthians when Paul is addressing the same people it is important to note how he addresses the support they have chosen to give.
2 Corinthians 9:5-14 ISV (5) Therefore, I thought it necessary to urge these brothers to visit you ahead of me, to make arrangements in advance for this gift you promised, and to have it ready as something given generously and not forced (6) Remember this: The person who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and the person who sows generously will also reap generously. (7) Each of you must give what you have decided in your heart, not with regret or under compulsion, since God loves a cheerful giver. (8) Besides, God is able to make every blessing of yours overflow for you, so that in every situation you will always have all you need for any good work. (9) As it is written, "He scatters everywhere and gives to the poor; his righteousness lasts forever." (10) Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread to eat will also supply you with seed and multiply it and enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. (11) In every way you will grow richer and become even more generous, and this will produce thanksgiving to God because of us. (12) For this ministry you render is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but it is also overflowing with more and more prayers of thanksgiving to God. (13) Because of the proof that this service of yours brings, you will glorify God because of your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ and because of your generosity in sharing with them and everyone else. (14) And so in their prayers for you they will long for you because of God's exceptional grace that was shown to you.
If the law demands something from you, it is not a gift. How many of you would say you give taxes without compulsion??
Do you decide in your heart what to give the government? God does not require anything from us. He loves us, and wants us to love him. He must live in our hearts in order for us to have a relationship with him. If he lives in our hearts then we will do his will in all things. If he does not, no matter what we do, he doesnt know us. A relationship with God is just that A RELATIONSHIP.
Matthew 5:17-18 ISV "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them. (18) For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.
What is the result of breaking the old covenant?
Death.
If Jesus died to take on our punishment, did he fulfill our obligation to the old covenant?
Yes. Romans Galatians
Can we include the old covenant in the new?
Luke 5:36-39 ISV Then he told them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and sews it on an old garment. If he does, the new will tear, and the piece from the new will not match the old. (EXPLAIN) (37) And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will make the skins burst, the wine will be spilled, and the skins will be ruined. (EXPLAIN) (38) Rather, new wine is to be poured into fresh wineskins. (39) No one who has been drinking old wine wants new wine, for he says, 'The old is excellent!'"
Luke 22:20 ISV He did the same with the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for you.
(continued next post)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1171518-new-to-leadership.html
please comply or do not reply(hey that rhymes)
Ok everyone brace yourselves, Im going to talk about the most dreaded subject in Christianity, finance, giving, donations, responsibility, what is often referred to as the tithe or tithing. Many Christians use the word tithe to refer to the freely given financial support they gift to the ministry. There is nothing wrong with this, however it is important to realize the difference between giving to the work of God and the required 10% of the Old Testament.
The concept of the tithe or tenth is never discussed as a requirement in the New Testament.
Giving, however is discussed throughout the New Testament. Sharing among each other is often mentioned and the subject of church support is always referred to as giving, not tithing. I feel this is an important distinction. A tithe is a required tenth of your income. Giving as you are able takes the all-important concepts of love and faith.
It is important to realize why the law existed. Before Jesus sacrifice it was impossible to have a love relationship with God. Without a loving relationship with God there has to exist something to guide people. The law was made not to condemn mankind but to guide them, however it was only a shadow of what true love is. This is what Jesus was pointing out in-
Mark 2:27 ISV Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath.(we were not put here to serve the law, the law was put here for our benefit)
Now law can never be what love is. It can only be a shadow, a poor copy, a cheap imitation of true love. Without a loving relationship with God the law is absolutely necessary. If the Israelites were not commanded to give in support of the ministry, the poor, and even to themselves as a reminder that they received it all from God, THEY WOULDNT HAVE, PERIOD.
This law was laid out for them in Deuteronomy 14:22-29
Deut 14:22-29
22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.
(this tithe as it is expounded upon in numbers 18:24 was for the Levites because they were set aside as a priesthood and owned no lands of their own)
23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.
24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away),
25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose.
26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.
(this is a second tithe that was to be eaten at the temple, whether the temporary one in early days or the one built later, as a reminder of all that God had done for you in the last year)
27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.
28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns,
29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.
(there is debate over whether this was instead of the second tithe or in addition to it)
(NIV)
so basically the law said,
a. support the priesthood, with a tenth of all you bring in
b. the priesthood cannot own anything
c. every year go to the temple with a tenth of all you own
d. use that tenth to have a party to God, as a reminder of all he has done for you
e. every third year either in addition to or instead of your party to God give the priests and everyone in the town that cannot support themselves or anyone who happens to be passing through a tenth of all you made that year so they can have a party to God
These regulations were for a specific system, at a specific time, and most importantly for a people without a personal relationship with God. The letter of this law no longer applies to someone who is in relationship with God. The spirit of these commands, however, does still apply.
Support your church leadership, especially if they depend solely on the church for support. (I would like to point out that it is usually far better for a church to have a pastor who can devote his full attention to church matters, so ideally, we should provide enough support that the pastor doesnt have to hold down another job, especially if the congregation is a large one.)
Give thanks to God continually for all he does for you. Celebrate his works in your life and acknowledge that God provides everything to you.
Support and help people that cannot support themselves.
Be kind to people passing through, help them out.
These are what I call NO DUH principles. If you have a loving relationship with God these are things you do, period.
The reason, as I said before, for a law was because there was no personal relationship with God. Without that relationship people just dont act out of love. Without relationship law is necessary, with relationship its not.
For instance if God had not ordered the other tribes to support the Levites, they WOULDNT HAVE, or if he hadnt given them specific instructions on how to do it, you can bet the priesthood would have lived pretty ****** lives. Sure they would have had a place to stay, (probably resembling a homeless shelter) and food. (Whatever the other tribes didnt want)
If you step back and look at the tribes you will begin to see the math:
a. 12 tribes
1. 1 a priesthood
2. 11 working land owners
b. a tenth from each
c. math 11x10%=110%
The priesthood under this system was pretty much guaranteed to do about as well as the next guy.
God didnt give the tithe law because it was the perfect way to do things, he gave the tithe law because without a relationship with him people are stubborn selfish inconsiderate idiots. If you arent specific theyll find a way around it. Heck even though he was they still found ways around it.
The point is there is a reason the tenth is never addressed in reference to the new covenant: it represented the flawed system that was done away with. The new covenant is about an unconditional, loving relationship between you and God.
Matthew 7:22-23 ISV Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn't we?' (23) Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"(emphasis added)
Notice He doesnt deny that they spoke in His name, He points out the lack of relationship.
Now I am not saying that we are not called to support the ministry. If we love God we will support the people who have dedicated themselves to spreading his word, just as we should. Paul addressed this issue very well in:
1 Corinthians 9:2-14 ISV (2) If I am not an apostle to other people, surely I am one to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord! (3) This is my defense to those who would examine me: (4) We have the right to eat and drink, don't we? (5) We have the right to take a believing wife with us like the other apostles, the Lord's brothers, and Cephas, don't we? (6) Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? (7) Who would ever go to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat any of its grapes? Or who takes care of a flock and does not drink any of its milk? (8) I am not saying this on human authority, am I? The law says the same thing, doesn't it? (9) For in the law of Moses it is written, "You must not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." God is not only concerned about oxen, is he? (10) Isn't he really speaking on our behalf? Yes, this was written on our behalf, because the one who plows should plow in hope, and the one who threshes should thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. (11) If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap material benefits from you? (12) If others enjoy this right over you, don't we have a stronger claim? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with everything in order not to put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. (13) You know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple and that those who serve at the altar get their share of its offerings, don't you? (14) In the same way, the Lord has ordered that those who proclaim the gospel should make their living from the gospel.
Paul makes it clear that we are called to support the ministry. Paul is not ordering the Corinthians to pay him, but he is reminding them that it is their duty to support the church. He reminds them not of the letter of the law but of the intention behind the law. Aka the spirit of the law.
In second Corinthians when Paul is addressing the same people it is important to note how he addresses the support they have chosen to give.
2 Corinthians 9:5-14 ISV (5) Therefore, I thought it necessary to urge these brothers to visit you ahead of me, to make arrangements in advance for this gift you promised, and to have it ready as something given generously and not forced (6) Remember this: The person who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and the person who sows generously will also reap generously. (7) Each of you must give what you have decided in your heart, not with regret or under compulsion, since God loves a cheerful giver. (8) Besides, God is able to make every blessing of yours overflow for you, so that in every situation you will always have all you need for any good work. (9) As it is written, "He scatters everywhere and gives to the poor; his righteousness lasts forever." (10) Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread to eat will also supply you with seed and multiply it and enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. (11) In every way you will grow richer and become even more generous, and this will produce thanksgiving to God because of us. (12) For this ministry you render is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but it is also overflowing with more and more prayers of thanksgiving to God. (13) Because of the proof that this service of yours brings, you will glorify God because of your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ and because of your generosity in sharing with them and everyone else. (14) And so in their prayers for you they will long for you because of God's exceptional grace that was shown to you.
If the law demands something from you, it is not a gift. How many of you would say you give taxes without compulsion??
Do you decide in your heart what to give the government? God does not require anything from us. He loves us, and wants us to love him. He must live in our hearts in order for us to have a relationship with him. If he lives in our hearts then we will do his will in all things. If he does not, no matter what we do, he doesnt know us. A relationship with God is just that A RELATIONSHIP.
Matthew 5:17-18 ISV "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them. (18) For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.
What is the result of breaking the old covenant?
Death.
If Jesus died to take on our punishment, did he fulfill our obligation to the old covenant?
Yes. Romans Galatians
Can we include the old covenant in the new?
Luke 5:36-39 ISV Then he told them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and sews it on an old garment. If he does, the new will tear, and the piece from the new will not match the old. (EXPLAIN) (37) And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will make the skins burst, the wine will be spilled, and the skins will be ruined. (EXPLAIN) (38) Rather, new wine is to be poured into fresh wineskins. (39) No one who has been drinking old wine wants new wine, for he says, 'The old is excellent!'"
Luke 22:20 ISV He did the same with the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for you.
(continued next post)
