Serious question for Christians who do not accept evolution.

juvenissun · Jan 31, 2015

Ryukil said:
Christianity for centuries has supposed that human beings are above animals, totally different to them. Well then why is our anatomy so similar to a chimpanzee? Why do we have mammary glands?

God makes people know that we are NOT too much different from animals at 3000 years ago. We are only different from animals on ONE thing. The rest are very similar.

mmksparbud · Jan 31, 2015

Ryukil said:
Humans are attracted to humans, iguanas are attracted to iguanas, dogs are attracted to dogs, cats are attracted to cats. Why is that funny?

All I'm saying is that the only reason I am attracted to human women is because I am a human male...............

Do you think that human sexual reproduction does not work the same way it works in other animals? Because it does........

Up to a point--in animals, they respond to increased hormones at certain times and that is when they mate. The rules for each species are different, but mostly the female comes into heat, the male, chases female, the female picks out the strongest, brightest, whatever, and agrees or walks away. Mating goes on only once, or several times for a short period of time and then they go their own ways. Some remain together, but mating, is still pretty much seasonal. There are variations to this.
We, well, we're not so discriminating. human females don't choose who is going to sire the best, healthiest children--men do not care if a female is in heat or not--we basically go at it when we want--not when it's spring and time to mate so the children come at the right time.
Animals do what hormones tell them to do--we were given a brain that can over-ride hormones, We have philosophy--they have hormones and instincts. We were made in the image of God, for fellowship with Him and each other at a much higher level. We have free will--we can say NO not just because someone doesn't have the right looking genetic material to produce healthy children, but because we first belong to our heavenly Father and out of that fellowship comes a certain self worth and philosophy that allows us to wait until the right person comes along who we can share our philosophies and lifestyles with and with whom we can share an emotional and physical bond with that will last a life time, not just the moment.
However, with free will also comes the choice of acting like a mindless, soulless, self-serving hormone with no connection to God--and many do so.

Metal Minister · Jan 31, 2015

Ryukil said:
I feel as if this question is a clincher, and am surprised it is not asked more often. You may be underwhelmed at first, but here we go:
Why are human beings mammals?

The term mammal is a human created term that science has used to make order out of the world around them. Much like amphibians, reptiles, etc. Also, it was a Christian who came up with the biological classification, Carolus Linnaeus.

lewiscalledhimmaster · Jan 31, 2015

ChetSinger said:
Wow, six questions in one post is too many for me!

I know. I fell asleep after the second stanza.

Keep your day job.

Ryukil · Jan 31, 2015

Sorry, I'll try to use bullet points for the questions next time.

"Mammal" may be a term invented by humans, but such a group as "mammal" does exist, right? There is a large group of animals with these features in common.
Are you saying that just because humans came up with the term "mammal" that such a group does not exist? I mean I was predicting that someone would say this, and this sort of argument just doesn't make any sense to me. The point of words is that they mean something.

By the way, Carolus Linnaeus grouped humans with apes. What does him being a Christians have to do with anything at all? There are great scientists who are religious, there are great scientists who aren't religious.

cerad · Jan 31, 2015

Ryukil said:
I feel as if this question is a clincher, and am surprised it is not asked more often. You may be underwhelmed at first, but here we go:
Why are human beings mammals?

This is a joke right? Have you never heard of common design?

Most cars have wheels, engine, transmission etc. Are you seriously suggesting that cars are a result of evolution?

lasthero · Jan 31, 2015

cerad said:
This is a joke right? Have you never heard of common design?

Most cars have wheels, engine, transmission etc. Are you seriously suggesting that cars are a result of evolution?

Cars don't fall into a nested hierchy.

Ryukil · Jan 31, 2015

cerad said:
This is a joke right? Have you never heard of common design?

Most cars have wheels, engine, transmission etc. Are you seriously suggesting that cars are a result of evolution?

But there must be a reason why God chose to make us MAMMALS.

Does a being need to be a bipedal primate in order to be intelligent in the way that human beings are intelligent?
Do you see what I'm getting at?

There must be a reason that God made humans bipedal primates............

Would it be possible for an alien species who is on the same level as intelligence as us to be a type of animal OTHER than a bipedal primate?

One possible answer to the question as to why God made us mammals is that we need our big brains in order to be intelligent, and these big brains can only exist in bipedal primates.

Do you see where I'm going here? I'm looking for a teleological explanation as to why God made human beings mammalian primates. And if you are a YEC and you believe God made us bipedal primates because he needed to have big brains, which can only exist in bipedal primates, well then why not just be a theistic evolutionist?

Here's a quote from everyone's favorite Christian apologist, C.S. Lewis:
“For long centuries God perfected the animal form which was to become the vehicle of humanity and the image of Himself. He gave it hands whose thumb could be applied to each of the fingers, and jaws and teeth and throat capable of articulation, and a brain sufficiently complex to execute all the material motions whereby rational thought is incarnated. The creature may have existed for ages in this state before it became man: it may even have been clever enough to make things which a modern archaeologist would accept as proof of its humanity. But it was only an animal because all its physical and psychical processes were directed to purely material and natural ends. Then, in the fullness of time, God caused to descend upon this organism, both on its psychology and physiology, a new kind of consciousness which could say ‘I’ and ‘me,’ which could look upon itself as an object, which knew God, which could make judgments of truth, beauty, and goodness, and which was so far above time that it could perceive time flowing past.”

MissRowy · Jan 31, 2015

This is the definition of mammal in case you didnt already know.

a warm-blooded vertebrate animal of a class that is distinguished by the possession of hair or fur, females that secrete milk for the nourishment of the young, and (typically) the birth of live young.

And considering that we have hair and most women choose to breastfeed their babies this is fitting.

ebia · Jan 31, 2015

MissRowy said:
This is the definition of mammal in case you didnt already know.

a warm-blooded vertebrate animal of a class that is distinguished by the possession of hair or fur, females that secrete milk for the nourishment of the young, and (typically) the birth of live young.

And considering that we have hair and most women choose to breastfeed their babies this is fitting.

I'm not sure Nestle can stop us being mammals.

MissRowy · Jan 31, 2015

SkyWriting · Feb 1, 2015

Ryukil said:
There must be a reason that God made humans bipedal primates

As noted...those are human made categories.

Your question is one of "design".
And the answer is that our design is perfectly suited for
our environment. Billionaires, those with virtually unlimited
resources to change anything they want, do not graft on
spider legs. They don't add tentacles. They like the
human design because it works so well.

I went through design class and we created aliens based on whatever
we chose for "special abilities." In a class of 300 kids, they all
start with the human form and work from there.

That's "natural" but it also illustrated that we don't envy other designs.
God made man in His own image. The original design is perfect.

Ryukil · Feb 1, 2015

Look into a movement called transhumanism.
Humans have been improving themselves forever. You could argue that tools function as an extension of the person.
And to say that humans are designed perfectly...yeah...the female reproductive system is prone to spontaneous abortion. Before C-sections were possible, women and infants would just die.
But that's a whole other question.

SkyWriting · Feb 1, 2015

Ryukil said:
Look into a movement called transhumanism.
Humans have been improving themselves forever.

Wrong. Not one improvement has been made, ever.

You may be thinking of repairing faulty organs due to
mutations or disease.

But not one improvement over our perfect design has ever been made.
What your talking about is no better than headphones so you can
hear music anytime you want. We can add unneeded "options"
but the cost is pretty high in every case.

It's no different than texting while driving. A price is paid for technology.

Just image the distraction factor of having a computer in your head.

A persons whole life may be like texting & driving full time.

Ryukil · Feb 1, 2015

I just meant that inventing a hoe so you can farm better is an improvement.

But I think it's very strange to say we have a perfect design when there are many flaws, such as the reproductive thing I just pointed out. The fact that we are born with cancer genes is evidence that we have a flawed design.

But anyway, I really think religion is a way to elevate man. The idea of evolution scares people because they don't want to be "just animals." I'm trying to figure out why you are so impassioned to defend the idea that humans are perfectly designed. It's funny that people say science is a way to elevate man. Religion is the thing that says we are the center of the universe and basically the most important thing within it, besides God. But then on the other hand it also says we are a bunch of wretched sinners who deserve to be scourged and have our flesh burned off for all of eternity. So it's a very strange thing.

SkyWriting · Feb 1, 2015

Ryukil said:
I just meant that inventing a hoe so you can farm better is an improvement.

But I think it's very strange to say we have a perfect design when there are many flaws, such as the reproductive thing I just pointed out. The fact that we are born with cancer genes is evidence that we have a flawed design.

How would you identify "cancer" unless you had healthy, correct functioning cells" to compare them to?

Evidently you consider "cancer" to be bad.
So you've already identified that the original design, cancer free, is better.

That's not the point, "Can I fix this?"

The point is, can you improve on the cells without disease? No.

Can you improve on a non-deformed limb or organ? No.

Can you improve on a healthy disease free organism? No. You can't.

Scientists have already noted that death is not required. They haven't yet found
the DNA that cases cells to fail....but they are confident it doesn't ever need to happen.
Death is a defect.

Ryukil · Feb 1, 2015

At the moment you can't, but I would bet in the future we will be able to.

SkyWriting · Feb 1, 2015

Ryukil said:
.the female reproductive system is prone to spontaneous abortion.

Either that's good or it's a defect.
We can only fix defects,

we can't improve on the healthy perfect body.

eclipsenow · Feb 2, 2015

Ryukil said:
Okay...but why are we specifically mammals and not reptiles? If we have no relation to other animals, why are we so much like them to the point that we can be grouped in with a specific group of animals?

This question can be taken further to, why did God make human DNA to be 99 % similar to chimpanzee DNA? Is he deliberately trying to confuse us?

As a Christian who does accept evolution, I like it!

PS: How does a Christian read Genesis while still accepting evolution?

Because Genesis 1 is a highly structured narrative more like a POEM than a literal engineering manual. It explains why God made us, not how God made us. It explains our relationship to God, the world, and each other, while marking down the Enuma Elish (Babylonian creation myth).

If it were just a literal list of what God did when on what day, I'd be bored to tears by it. But the fact that it is a 'poem' that in some places satirises other Ancient Middle East creation myths makes it so much more interesting!

Dr John Dickson (Phd in History), an Anglican Theologian, forces us to take a fresh look at Genesis from the world-view of the Ancient Middle East. He especially compares Genesis to the Babylonian creation narrative the Enuma Elish which was written on 7 stone tablets, read out once a year on a national day which to the Babylonians was a bit like Christmas and Independence Day and Anzac Day rolled into one!

Genesis 1, as a creative counter-narrative to the Enuma Elish, is theological dynamite! Look at some of the extremely controversial images:

1. There is one God, not many.

2. The one God is the master of land and water, not like the Babylonians whose hero Marduk slayed Tiamet, and half her body became the land and half the water.

3. The stars are NOT gods! We don't serve them or sacrifice babies to them! No! They serve us! (This is heresy to the ancient world!) They are our calendar.

4. The sun is our servant and lights our skies. In Egypt the sun is of course the god Ra, a being to be served.

There is so much more, but I'll leave it to Dr John Dickson.

http://www.iscast.org/journal/articles/Dickson_J_2008-03_Genesis_Of_Everything.pdf

SkyWriting · Feb 2, 2015

Ryukil said:
At the moment you can't, but I would bet in the future we will be able to.

Man may be able to correct all kinds of defects
or create new advantages. Take GM corn for
example. It's awesome stuff, but it may have
long term penalties. It may case mankind to
become sterile in the future, worldwide.
Cell phones may increase brain cancer.
Always have your doubts on technology.

Serious question for Christians who do not accept evolution.

... and God saw that it was good.

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