Serious issue here

[illudium_phosdex]

I want to preface this by saying that this has been an issue long before we ever set foot in a Lutheran Church, but since we are currently attending our local LCMS Church I figured this would be the best place to post this.

Both my son and daughter have been very active in scouts for quite a while. And when I say very active, I do mean very active. I have also been an assistant troop leader for my daughter's Girl Scout troop for the past three years and an assistant den leader for my son's pack this past year. Both of them have gotten numerous awards for all the service they've put in.

I've been more concerned about the Girl Scouts for a while now and had considered pulling my daughter out several times. My reasons for concer have to do with their increasingly leftist agenda. Examples include their support for Planned Parenthood, their support of homosexuality as being a valid lifestyle to the point that transgendered boys are allowed to join troops, and their focus on moral relativism in the newest edition of their guide books and Journeys.

I've kept my daughter in Girl Scouts because for one I caved many times when I told her that I wanted to pull her out and she protested. I've told myself, "Even though the national organization does this, our council doesn't necessarily support it." And ignored local troop leaders who do.

With the Boy Scouts my problem has been a little less but still quite grave in my estimation. The issue comes with the prayers. There are quite a few Mormons in our council and pack and it's been bothersome to me that everyone would pray together at camps and meetings. And again, I would find myself making excuses like, "Well, they're praying this, but I'll pray to the Triune God of the Bible to myself."

And now there's the issue coming up with the Boy Scouts allowing openly homosexual boys to join. The vote won't happen until next month but I already know that several of the leaders in our council and our pack support it. And it seems that, from the news reports already circulating, that it will go through. I just see the Boy Scouts going down the same road the Girl Scouts has done.

Right, wrong or indifferent, my children are now 11 and 12 and can think for themselves so I sat them down and talked to them about what was going on with both organizations. My daughter expressed that she has already been uncomfortable with the new program books in Girl Scouts. My son stated that he did not believe that homosexuality is right and did not feel comfortable going to camps with openly homosexual boys.

Now some would say that I've indoctrinated my children and that they are simply spouting back what I've taught them. I'd like to think I've taught them what the Bible says. Either way, after discussing it with our children and with their dad, we've decided to pull both children out of scouts.

The thing is, I'm really depressed about it and I don't know why. Maybe it's because we've invested so much time and money into these organizations and I feel like the leadership has let us down. I just don't know.

And before anyone says, "Well, I was an Eagle Scout" or "I was a Girl Scout for xyz years..." I just want to say that I was a Girl Scout back in the day and my husband earned his Eagle Scout. But these organizations are not the same organizations they were even 10 years ago.

 

[filosofer]

Blessings on your decision. That is not an easy one.

Sometimes, I have found that with this monumental decision, there is an emotional letdown afterward, something like “buyer’s regret.” In this case you are being faithful to God, researched what you could, you have been honest with your children, and making the decision with all information available. Those are the ones who count.

Luther’s advice in this situation: you make the best decision, and you can’t see sin involved in that decision, then move forward on that decision: “sin boldly.” The other part of the quote is “and believe all the more boldly that God’s grace is sufficient.”

Stand firm in the Lord.

 

[illudium_phosdex]

Thank you, Filosofer! Your words do help more than you can know.

 

[cerette]

You probably didn't mean it that way but it sort of sounded like you had a problem with attending something where "even homosexuals" are welcome. As far as that goes I would say that it is not always sin to be a part of something where everyone is welcome. I would say that there are other things about the scouts that are bad, and that's why I would not participate. (The common prayers for example.)

I do think you've made a good decision and I am sure you'll feel better about it as time goes. Does your church have any groups that your kids could attend? Otherwise maybe you could do "scouty" things together as a family, sounds like both you and your husband have the experience and skills to lead meaningful family "scoutings".

 

[alexnbethmom]

i'm not sure about something for boys, but there is a Christian girls organization called "american heritage girls", my daughter was a part of that for a while, and it's all Christian based....i'll bet there's a boy's counterpart as well....

it is hard when you have so much time invested - God be with you as you make your decision....

 

[twin.spin]

I was so fortunate that in the WELS, people understood the issues of the Boy \ Girl Scouts were such that over 60 years ago they started the Boy Pioneers program and later had the Girls Pioneers, then later for younger children the Buckaroo's

Home Page


We understood that God had a reason when he said:

Romans 16:17
I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who
cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary
to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
​

Hopefully LCMS will develop a similar program for their youth and parents who heed the Lord's wisdom.

 

[QuiltAngel]

I think you did right in discussing this with your children and coming to the decision you have made. I don't think I could be a member of the Girl Scouts anymore. Hmm,wonder if there is a way to denounce your lifetime membership, which I paid for years ago.

Hopefully you find something for your kids to be involved with that is acceptable to you and your kids.

 

[illudium_phosdex]

Cerette, no I don't have a problem with groups that welcome homosexuals. I think I have plenty of tolerance for others and their beliefs. The problem I have is when I'm told that I have to accept another's lifestyle choice even when that choice involves willful and unrepentant sin. And that's what I see happening.

Alexnbethmom and QuiltAngel, I've been homeschooling my two but next year our daughter is going to school. While it won't help my son next year, the school they'll both eventually be attending has a very active Future Farmers of America. We are very much into the whole local food movement and my daughter found last summer that she really enjoys gardening. Our church also has a community garden that would be fun to get involved with. Our son will have to wait a year but the school also has a robotics team that I think he'd enjoy quite a bit. Unfortunately there is no Heritage Girls around here. I did check it out a while back when my misgivings about Girl Scouts first came up.

The Lutheran Pioneers does look like a good program, Twin.spin.

 

[DaRev]

Cerette, no I don't have a problem with groups that welcome homosexuals. I think I have plenty of tolerance for others and their beliefs. The problem I have is when I'm told that I have to accept another's lifestyle choice even when that choice involves willful and unrepentant sin. And that's what I see happening.

Alexnbethmom and QuiltAngel, I've been homeschooling my two but next year our daughter is going to school. While it won't help my son next year, the school they'll both eventually be attending has a very active Future Farmers of America. We are very much into the whole local food movement and my daughter found last summer that she really enjoys gardening. Our church also has a community garden that would be fun to get involved with. Our son will have to wait a year but the school also has a robotics team that I think he'd enjoy quite a bit. Unfortunately there is no Heritage Girls around here. I did check it out a while back when my misgivings about Girl Scouts first came up.

The Lutheran Pioneers does look like a good program, Twin.spin.

The unfortunate thing about the Lutheran Pioneers is that they are only available to WELS members and congregations. A program like that would be a great alternative to GSA and even BSA.

 

[twin.spin]

The unfortunate thing about the Lutheran Pioneers is that they are only available to WELS members and congregations. A program like that would be a great alternative to GSA and even BSA.

It would be a very beneficial for the LCMS to do. We as Christian really need to be alert to the upcoming attack on Biblical beliefs. Just sent to me by my pastor was an article in our synods issue of "Together" April 16, 2013

the Conference of Presidents (COP) discussed briefly how
congregations might be affected legally if the federal government
approves of marriage between homosexuals. The COP will monitor
this situation to determine if any advice should be offered to
congregations in the future.
​

 

[illudium_phosdex]

I'm not so sure I'd say upcoming. These attacks are happening here and now.

 

[Aibrean]

You're following the Bible and it's working.

Proverbs 22:6
English Standard Version (ESV)
Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.

Part of the reason why we chose a Christian daycare center. They teach a Bible-based curriculum to even the toddlers. When she gets to Kindergarten age we're switching her to our Lutheran church's school. We didn't want a daycare with visits from santa/easter bunny like other secular centers do. It could be a nightmare if she lets on that they are make-believe. Granted...there aren't any Lutheran daycares for infants so we will have to instill Lutheran doctrine early on (before she hears the "accept" Jesus thing).

 

[LilLamb219]

I was my daughter's Girl Scout Troop Leader from Kindergarten through 6th grade. During that time, things progressively became more and more liberal throughout the organization. It was a wonderful experience for everyone in my troop (actually some years I had more than one troop because no one else wanted to volunteer).

The great thing about being the troop leader was I had control over so many things that we did and what reached the girls.

 

[twin.spin]

I'm not so sure I'd say upcoming. These attacks are happening here and now.

They're upcoming in that this not going to stop with the Scouts. We are already hearing of Christian privately run businesses (like cake decorators \ flower shops) getting sued for choosing not to cater to homosexuals because of the owners religious beliefs.

I know of a situation where a manager was filed with harassment charges for simply stating in a casual conversation between the manager and a employee where the employee was boasting that he was proud that he (the employee) was going to hell for being homosexual.

The managers harassment statement ... "You don't really mean that (wanting to go to hell), I don't want to see that happen to anybody"

 

[illudium_phosdex]

LilLamb, that's one of the main reasons I've been one of my daughter's troop leaders for the past 3 years. In that capacity, I was able to filter a lot of the other stuff.

Twin.spin, yeah, I only see it getting worse too.

 

[Luther073082]

Cerette, no I don't have a problem with groups that welcome homosexuals. I think I have plenty of tolerance for others and their beliefs. The problem I have is when I'm told that I have to accept another's lifestyle choice even when that choice involves willful and unrepentant sin. And that's what I see happening.

What do you mean by accept? Are they trying to tell you or your son that you must applaud what they do??

I personally wouldn't have a problem sending my kid to boy scouts (if he wanted to go) if there where gay boys there or even as scary as some Christians make this, gay scout leaders.

I would however if they told me that my kid had to applaud that sort of behavior and think it was right.

Let's not forget that if your son's scout leader is unmarried and sleeps with his girlfriend regularly (as many unmarried people sadly do) or if he prays to false God's he's engaging in a lifestyle choice that involves willful and unrepentant sin.

The fact that they allow non-Christians in means that your son is around people who are engaged in willful and unrepentant sin if they are praying to a false God.

My point is that unless you are going to worry about all of those things, I don't focus just on homosexuality.

I would be more worried about the girl scouts since their organization is actively in support of organizations which promote activities that are counter to the Christian faith. It is the promotion of these activities which is more distressing then the fact that they allow the people who do these things to join.

My view on these things is the question of if they promote a particular agenda or if they just let people join and come along. Promotion of an agenda counter to the Christian faith is more distressing then just letting people in willful and unrepentant sin come along.

I would note that if your son is uncomfortable with having gay scouts or scout leaders along because the nature of scouting may involve undressing, showering, and or changing in front of others I certainly wouldn't look down upon someone bowing out due to that discomfort. But I would discourage attempts to avoid people just because they are gay.

The way I see it though, most of the world is in some form of willful and unrepentant sin, can't keep them away from the entire world. Just teach them not to copy the world.

 

[illudium_phosdex]

That is what I am getting at, Luther. The Girl Scouts started out merely allowing openly homosexual members and leaders and then moved on to applauding the behavior. I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that they promote it though. It's just that we are pretty much told that it is a lifestyle choice that is just as valid as any other choice and we should be accepting of this choice. And that's where I have the problem. There is a difference between tolerance and acceptance. This is what I'm afraid is going to happen with the Boy Scouts. Things rarely seem to move back to the more conservative side.

My son's discomfort was a direct result that he would feel uncomfortable undressing in front of and showering with a homosexual boy in the same way that he would be uncomfortable undressing in front of and showering with a girl.

And I did mention other issues. The homosexuality issue just happened to be the straw that finally broke the camel's back so to speak. I'm still not 100% certain that we have made the right decision. But it was my husband who called our council office and told them that he would no longer support them. I'd have preferred to maybe discuss the issue with our pastor first. I'm still wondering if maybe I should try to get my husband to have a discussion with our pastor.

The way I see it though, most of the world is in some form of willful and unrepentant sin, can't keep them away from the entire world. Just teach them not to copy the world.

This right here is how I feel too and it may be why I'm having misgivings about the decision we made.

 

[neen1]

My son's discomfort was a direct result that he would feel uncomfortable undressing in front of and showering with a homosexual boy in the same way that he would be uncomfortable undressing in front of and showering with a girl.

I don't want to discount your sons feelings, but in all the years my boys have been in Scouts (Tiger and both are now Life Scouts), they have never had to change in front of other boys or take showers in the presence of other boys. Even at camp. Showers are all individual stalls with locked doors and changing rooms (at least at the camps we have gone to). Maybe in the bath house at the pool it's more locker room like, but I do believe there are changing rooms for the boys if they want to use them. Also, adults ALWAYS have separate shower/changing rooms from the boys (that's part of the Youth Protection training EVERY adult volunteer must take). I think the gym locker room at school is more of a open environment than at Scouts.

 

[Luther073082]

That is what I am getting at, Luther. The Girl Scouts started out merely allowing openly homosexual members and leaders and then moved on to applauding the behavior. I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that they promote it though. It's just that we are pretty much told that it is a lifestyle choice that is just as valid as any other choice and we should be accepting of this choice. And that's where I have the problem. There is a difference between tolerance and acceptance. This is what I'm afraid is going to happen with the Boy Scouts. Things rarely seem to move back to the more conservative side.

My son's discomfort was a direct result that he would feel uncomfortable undressing in front of and showering with a homosexual boy in the same way that he would be uncomfortable undressing in front of and showering with a girl.

And I did mention other issues. The homosexuality issue just happened to be the straw that finally broke the camel's back so to speak. I'm still not 100% certain that we have made the right decision. But it was my husband who called our council office and told them that he would no longer support them. I'd have preferred to maybe discuss the issue with our pastor first. I'm still wondering if maybe I should try to get my husband to have a discussion with our pastor.



This right here is how I feel too and it may be why I'm having misgivings about the decision we made.

Well then I have no issue then. Just as long as you are doing it because what they teach conflicts with the teachings of the church and or it makes your son uncomfortable and not because of some fear of gay people.

I have always found the Boy scouts an odd organization anyways, sort of hypocritical. You can be a member of any religion but you must believe in a God. That makes no sense. Either you pick a freaking God and demand that all members worship and/or believe in said God. Or you just be neutral on the whole God thing and let everyone join.

I personally would be worried about the influence of the American Civic religion over that organization to where that becomes the religion that they preach.

I don't find it easy to trust organizations that try to occupy some crazy middle ground like that. To me you either pick a religion and go with that, or you stay neutral on the religion thing and make no demands upon the belief in God.

 

[LilLamb219]

Well, it started out that both girl and boy scouting organizations did have the Christian God until they saw the need to be more inclusive as the years passed by. Then it was them saying that the prayers or songs they sing aren't to any one god but the one that you worship...to me that always felt icky.