serial killers can go to heaven?

arunma · Aug 28, 2005

Well Vedickings, since you're not back yet, I'll respond to your post.

Vedickings said:
I think it take far more work then just a simple acceptances of Christ.

There's nothing simple about acceptance of Christ. You need ot define "acceptance" before you state your opinion on whether or not it takes far more work to be saved. Besides that, acceptance of Christ isn't a work. We are saved by grace through faith, apart from works.

Vedickings said:
I mean come on we are talking about killers who killed 100's of people!

Saint Paul most likely killed many Christians. We know for a fact that he was an accomplice to the murder of Stephen. His repentance caused him to serve Christ, and no one would argue that he was saved. The idea behind true repentance is that if such a murder were to repent, he would live the same sort of life as Paul, because faith in Christ is demonstrated by good works. But you've deliberately chosen an example in which the person who repents doesn't have time to show his faith by good works (due to his imminent execution).

Vedickings said:
I'm sorry Christians but this belief is wrong.

The reason I'm slow to give that opinion any credence is because I assume you'll follow it up with the conclusion that Christians should commit idolatry by worshiping Krishna. But before I go any further, I'll clarify. Assuming that this belief is wrong, precisely what would you like us to believe?

jenin · Aug 28, 2005

vedickings said:
Ok, I was talking to my freind today, and he said that even a serial killer will go to havean if he/she accept Jeusu into there heart, who is on death row, just before the lethal injectionon.

I do not believe this idea. I think it take far more work then just a simple acceptances of Christ. I mean come on we are talking about killers who killed 100's of people! Even killing one person out of hate, takes far more work, then I believe in Christ and then off to the [size=-1]execution to heaven.

And then all the good unbeliever are going to hell!

I'm sorry Christians but this belief is wrong.
[/size]

I believe he is responsible of his own sin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

He deserve Hell..................

Allah give us mind & Heart to decide between good and bad.....why should someone else bear my sins,,,,while i make it with my own will,...

Humanbeing by their nature ...commit sin ...when they believe that every sin is forgetable as christain ,,,,they tend to be careless and commit more sins

thats personally what I think....

FriendlySeeker · Aug 28, 2005

vedickings said:
Ok, I was talking to my freind today, and he said that even a serial killer will go to havean if he/she accept Jeusu into there heart, who is on death row, just before the lethal injectionon.

I do not believe this idea. I think it take far more work then just a simple acceptances of Christ. I mean come on we are talking about killers who killed 100's of people! Even killing one person out of hate, takes far more work, then I believe in Christ and then off to the [size=-1]execution to heaven.

And then all the good unbeliever are going to hell!

I'm sorry Christians but this belief is wrong.
[/size]

Hi VK,

Why do you want to think Christ cant do that?

I agree that the unbeliever part of christianity does not make much sense to me. But why question the believer pat?

Accepting Christ means true acceptance - not mere muttering of words. I believe only a small number of christians will ever go to heaven if they sin. because people who truly accept Christ are very small. The grace and works have to go together, so what I tend to think is that there must be something else that governs heaven. Not just belief in christ, or doing good deeds, but something more. The present system in christianity that excludes a majority does not look correct to me, and hardly looks like the work of an omnipotent divine. Truly following Jesus words is impossible except for Jesus himself and this being the case, I think there must be something else which I am trying to find.

MAXX · Aug 28, 2005

vedickings said:
Ok, I was talking to my freind today, and he said that even a serial killer will go to havean if he/she accept Jeusu into there heart, who is on death row, just before the lethal injectionon.

I do not believe this idea. I think it take far more work then just a simple acceptances of Christ. I mean come on we are talking about killers who killed 100's of people! Even killing one person out of hate, takes far more work, then I believe in Christ and then off to the [size=-1]execution to heaven.

And then all the good unbeliever are going to hell!

I'm sorry Christians but this belief is wrong.
[/size]

I feel whole Christianity is wrong and Jesus was wrongly understood.

arunma · Aug 28, 2005

MAXX said:
I feel whole Christianity is wrong and Jesus was wrongly understood.

Once again I have the same objection. You guys continuously say that Christianity misunderstood Jesus. But precisely what do you want us to believe?

WashedClean · Aug 28, 2005

FriendlySeeker said:
Accepting Christ means true acceptance - not mere muttering of words. I believe only a small number of christians will ever go to heaven if they sin. because people who truly accept Christ are very small.

I don't mean to sidetrack this thread, but your post was very interesting and I wanted to ask you a few questions and also respond.

All true Christians will go to heaven. What do you mean "if they sin"? All human beings sin because we all fall short of God's standard, which is pefection. You're correct that the number of people who call themselves Christian, go to church, etc. vs. those who are truly saved is quite dichotomous (sp?)

The grace and works have to go together, so what I tend to think is that there must be something else that governs heaven. Not just belief in christ, or doing good deeds, but something more. The present system in christianity that excludes a majority does not look correct to me, and hardly looks like the work of an omnipotent divine.

Could you expand on this a little more? Most non-Christians think they have to do good works to earn salvation, which is what most religions teach. The key is realizing that Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with God through Christ.

Truly following Jesus words is impossible except for Jesus himself and this being the case, I think there must be something else which I am trying to find.

You're absolutely 100% correct. No Christian or non-Christian can follow Jesus perfectly while we are still on this earth. That's why we rest in Jesus and trust and rely on HIM to save us. God applies his righteousness to us when we trust in Him for salvation!

FriendlySeeker · Aug 28, 2005

Hi,

WashedClean said:
I don't mean to sidetrack this thread, but your post was very interesting and I wanted to ask you a few questions and also respond.

All true Christians will go to heaven. What do you mean "if they sin"? All human beings sin because we all fall short of God's standard, which is pefection. You're correct that the number of people who call themselves Christian, go to church, etc. vs. those who are truly saved is quite dichotomous (sp?)

So who is a true christian? I agree all will sin unknowingly, but is it also necessary to be as sinless as possible consciously? How many christians who call themselves christians will be "true christians"? Do such "non true christians" get heaven?

Could you expand on this a little more? Most non-Christians think they have to do good works to earn salvation, which is what most religions teach. The key is realizing that Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with God through Christ.

What I feel is that only christians who have lived their lives in strict accordance with the teachings of Jesus will earn salvation and others wont, if christianity is true. If God could make concessions for christians who did not follow Jesus, then he might extend that concession to everybody else.

You're absolutely 100% correct. No Christian or non-Christian can follow Jesus perfectly while we are still on this earth. That's why we rest in Jesus and trust and rely on HIM to save us. God applies his righteousness to us when we trust in Him for salvation!

Yes, I agree, but dont you agree that we have to consciously strive to be the best and not depend on the grace of God after committing many sins knowingly. Especially with respect to this OP, I never think a serial killer irrespective of whether he repents or not is eligible to be with Jesus, because it means a lot of injustice to many people who lived exemplery lives outside Jesus.

Pam

vedickings · Aug 28, 2005

Wow, thanks for all your replys!!

arunma, nice to see you again

Well you can believe what you want, but I think for every bad action, there needs to be a good one to be corrected. Belief in Christ is a good start indeed, but good actions is the devine (God) works

urnotme · Aug 28, 2005

Montalban said:
I read the question differently.

Also, all that I believe about Jesus teachings aren't in the Bible. The doctrine of sola scriptura is also a minority belief, flawed because I could use the Bible to counter what you just said. Thus I could quote a Biblcal verse where Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

This suggests that having faith is not enough, because you have to do something - God's Will

There are different words that are translated faith. In pauls epistles faith includes works.

arunma · Aug 28, 2005

vedickings said:
arunma, nice to see you again

Well you can believe what you want, but I think for every bad action, there needs to be a good one to be corrected. Belief in Christ is a good start indeed, but good actions is the devine (God) works

Glad to see you back too.

But anyway, you didn't answer my question. You said that the Christian doctrine of salvation is wrong. This suggests that perhaps you know what the truth is (granted, it is possible to prove a proposition wrong without knowing whether another proposition is true). So again I ask: what should we believe? Or are you saying that you simply don't know what is true?

vedickings · Aug 28, 2005

Glad to see you back too.

But anyway, you didn't answer my question. You said that the Christian doctrine of salvation is wrong. This suggests that perhaps you know what the truth is (granted, it is possible to prove a proposition wrong without knowing whether another proposition is true). So again I ask: what should we believe? Or are you saying that you simply don't know what is true?

I didn't say that the Christian doctrine of salvation is wrong. I just don't see how, lets say 80 years of evil aces or actions (sins) can get you to heaven through beliefs alone.

All i'm say is actions of good is just as important as Belief in Christ as if they go together as one. I think in most cases good actions are more important then beliefs, because its base on love for all, which can be done without religion.

This is why I don't believe a good person is going to hell just because he/she doesn't believe in Christ or the Bible.

Love is more powerful then a book or belief. So in other words if you live life with love for all, you are already a believer of God Love = God.

Proud Hindu · Aug 28, 2005

vedickings said:
Love is more powerful then a book or belief. So in other words if you live life with love for all, you are already a believer of God Love = God.

True dat..

vedickings · Aug 28, 2005

Hi Proud Hindu, how are you?

bouncer · Aug 28, 2005

vedickings said:
Love is more powerful then a book or belief. So in other words if you live life with love for all, you are already a believer of God Love = God.

I wouldn't argue with that either.

BarbB · Aug 28, 2005

vedickings said:
Wow, thanks for all your replys!!

arunma, nice to see you again

Well you can believe what you want, but I think for every bad action, there needs to be a good one to be corrected. Belief in Christ is a good start indeed, but good actions is the devine (God) works

Though the good thief didn't have time for good works before he died.

Read about David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) who was a serial killer and who is now a born-again Christian. He has begun a prison ministry.

vedickings · Aug 28, 2005

newlamb said:
Though the good thief didn't have time for good works before he died.

Read about David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) who was a serial killer and who is now a born-again Christian. He has begun a prison ministry.

Yes, But he has time to work things out, which is by living in good actions for a time.

I'm talking about killers who is going to be [size=-1]executed in 5 hours.
[/size]

missionette · Aug 28, 2005

It is more likely that(if salvation was based on works) you would go to hell! <---not you, i mean in general, sorry if that was confusing.
This is the power of inconceivable grace! If God is love, and love is generous and selfless, than would not God to give us salvation no matter the price He would have to pay?
I lived on a ship for six years in africa and europe, i met people from sooo many religions, and yet, they strived for something more. most people believe that we have to do something to get to God, this could be pride, or just misconception, i will not judge.
Would you rather die not sure and wind up in hell, or die sure and still end up in hell?
I would rather die sure that God was sure, and i believe i know exactly how to make sure of that!lol....suuuuure! I know what you're thinking, "those exclusive, hard-headed Christians!!! how annoying!"
I am proud to say that we are exclusive, because we believe God is. "what a contradiction", you might be thinking! well, im going to let you think about it for a while, i'll tell you more when i get home from school tomorrow! Another monday in 8th grade...ugggh!

WashedClean · Aug 29, 2005

FriendlySeeker said:
Hi,

So who is a true christian? I agree all will sin unknowingly, but is it also necessary to be as sinless as possible consciously? How many christians who call themselves christians will be "true christians"? Do such "non true christians" get heaven?

Hi Pam

Jesus said, not everyone who says to him on judgment day "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Then he will say to them "depart from me, I never knew you, you who do iniquity". Only those who are born-again are true Christians. I can't judge another's heart, only God can do that. But if you're born again, you know it. You are a new creature in Christ. You can say "Jesus is Lord". If you can't, you don't belong to Him. And Jesus said you would know his followers by their fruit and love for one another.

What I feel is that only christians who have lived their lives in strict accordance with the teachings of Jesus will earn salvation and others wont, if christianity is true. If God could make concessions for christians who did not follow Jesus, then he might extend that concession to everybody else.

OK, but this is not what Jesus taught at all. We don't "earn" salvation, it's a free gift to all who believe. If we could earn it, then God made a huge mistake by sending Jesus to die in our place. Once you become a Christian, the righteousness of Jesus is applied to you by God. That's what non-Christians have a hard time accepting and believing.

Yes, I agree, but dont you agree that we have to consciously strive to be the best and not depend on the grace of God after committing many sins knowingly.

Yes, my goal is not to sin by the power of the Holy Spirit. I cannot do this without Him and still fail in my flesh. My desire is to please God and glorify Him. But this is not how I earn my salvation or keep it, Praise God!

Especially with respect to this OP, I never think a serial killer irrespective of whether he repents or not is eligible to be with Jesus, because it means a lot of injustice to many people who lived exemplery lives outside Jesus.

Why not? You're limiting the grace of God. The fact that a serial killer can be forgiven through Jesus Christ shows how loving and forgiving God is. THAT brings HIM glory. If we can earn our salvation, then that's giving us the credit, not God.

See, the justice for that killing was paid by Christ on the cross. God applies that sacrifice as an atonement for the killing committed by the serial killer (if they repent and believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation). So there is no injustice in the forgiveness of a serial killer who comes to Christ.

Am I making any sense?

vedickings · Aug 29, 2005

WashedClean said:
Why not? You're limiting the grace of God. The fact that a serial killer can be forgiven through Jesus Christ shows how loving and forgiving God is. THAT brings HIM glory. If we can earn our salvation, then that's giving us the credit, not God.

See, the justice for that killing was paid by Christ on the cross. God applies that sacrifice as an atonement for the killing committed by the serial killer (if they repent and believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation). So there is no injustice in the forgiveness of a serial killer who comes to Christ.

Am I making any sense?

This sounds to easy.

missionette · Aug 29, 2005

vedickings said:
This sounds to easy.

I know, it does! too bad grace is not fair!

serial killers can go to heaven?

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