Septuagint Vs. Masoretic Vs. Samaritan

Adventist Dissident · Dec 31, 2021

Recently I found out about the problems with the KJV and the Masoretic text which the OT is based on. the would explain some of the contradiction in the Bible. Based on these problems is it time to scrap the KJV and all text based on the Masoretic text and create a NEW Bible Based on the Septuagint, the offical Jewish bible from the 3 century BC

chevyontheriver · Dec 31, 2021

icedragon101 said:
Recently I found out about the problems with the KJV and the Masoretic text which the OT is based on. the would explain some of the contradiction in the Bible. Based on these problems is it time to scrap the KJV and all text based on the Masoretic text and create a NEW Bible Based on the Septuagint, the offical Jewish bible from the 3 century BC

Would you be willing to take all of the Septuagent and not just the books that are within the covers of the KJV as has been printed in the last 200 years or so? It becomes a question of canonicity whether you do or don't.

dzheremi · Dec 31, 2021

You don't need to create some new Bible to start using the Septuagint text for your OT. All of eastern Christianity (e.g., the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, etc.) has used the LXX since the first century. This was one of the charges against the archetypal Jew Trypho in St. Justin Martyr's (2nd century) dialogue -- that the Jews too had used the LXX, but switched to a different text because they did not like some of the implications concerning the Messiah in the LXX, now that Christians were around and proclaiming Jesus to be the very same, in fulfillment of OT prophecy as read in the LXX.

Adventist Dissident · Dec 31, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
Would you be willing to take all of the Septuagent and not just the books that are within the covers of the KJV as has been printed in the last 200 years or so? It becomes a question of canonicity whether you do or don't.

you are going to have to explain this a little more?

Adventist Dissident · Dec 31, 2021

dzheremi said:
You don't need to create some new Bible to start using the Septuagint text for your OT. All of eastern Christianity (e.g., the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, etc.) has used the LXX since the first century. This was one of the charges against the archetypal Jew Trypho in St. Justin Martyr's (2nd century) dialogue -- that the Jews too had used the LXX, but switched to a different text because they did not like some of the implications concerning the Messiah in the LXX, now that Christians were around and proclaiming Jesus to be the very same, in fulfillment of OT prophecy as read in the LXX.

so if i get an orthodox bible then I will have an accurate translation of the bible?

chevyontheriver · Dec 31, 2021

icedragon101 said:
you are going to have to explain this a little more?

The Masoretic text of the OT, produced after the time of Jesus, does not have some of the books found in the LXX. Those books got censored by Rabbinic Judaism. The KJV initially included those censored books but later took them out and ended up with only 66 books. They lost Tobit and Sirach and Baruch and Judith and the Book of Wisdom and the Books of the Macchabees.

So if you are going to follow the LXX you have to decide if you are going to keep those books or not. What's in your canon?

The LXX was the Bible version quoted in the NT. It was the Bible for the early Church. Those books were the OT of the Bible from the time the canon was settled back around 380 AD until some people started taking those books out after the Reformation.

chevyontheriver · Dec 31, 2021

icedragon101 said:
so if i get an orthodox bible then I will have an accurate translation of the bible?

Probably better than the KJV. More complete than any printing of the KJV that you could buy now.

dzheremi · Dec 31, 2021

icedragon101 said:
so if i get an orthodox bible then I will have an accurate translation of the bible?

I would assume so, although I don't own any 'Orthodox-branded' English Bibles myself. That's something the Eastern Orthodox have made a point of producing, with their "Orthodox Study Bible" and others, so you should probably ask any questions you have about the details on their subforum, The Ancient Way.

Adventist Dissident · Dec 31, 2021

this is quite interesting

chevyontheriver · Dec 31, 2021

icedragon101 said:
this is quite interesting

Indeed. So often we just accept everything we are told. Then we get surprised.

GreekOrthodox · Dec 31, 2021

Here is a free PDF version of the LXX in English
NETS: New English Translation of the Septuagint

Fervent · Dec 31, 2021

Which LXX do you mean? There are multiple indices of the LXX and its more a family than a specific instance of a Bible. Getting into manuscript questions is a massive hornets nest, just warning you.

GreekOrthodox · Dec 31, 2021

This is the LXX in a joint effort between the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in America and the Hellenic Bible Society.

Home - The Septuagint: LXX

The Liturgist · Jan 1, 2022

icedragon101 said:
so if i get an orthodox bible then I will have an accurate translation of the bible?

Yes, but there is also the 18th century Lancelot Brenton translation of the Septuagint, which I prefer to the Orthodox Study Bible text because it is in the hieratic style of the KJV. So actually, it really is largely about whether you want a modern NKJV-based translation of the Septuagint or one in formal language. The Orthodox Study Bible does have Orthodox doctrinal footnotes many of which you would certainly disagree with; however, it also conveniently includes the NKJV Gospel.

You can find the Lancelot Brenton Septuagint online for free: Brenton Septuagint Translation

Scribd, which costs $9.99/mo and also offers free trials, is the cheapest way to get the Orthodox Study Bible and a lot of other material, but if you want a physical copy, mine cost $60 at the bookstore of an Orthodox Church, and there are also downloadable ebooks for about $30.

Septuagint with Apocrypha: Greek and English

This hardcopy of the Lancelot Brenton with parallel Greek costs $31 apparently.

GreekOrthodox said:
Here is a free PDF version of the LXX in English
NETS: New English Translation of the Septuagint

A hardcopy of this version is $37.49 on Amazon.

trophy33 · Jan 1, 2022

icedragon101 said:
create a NEW Bible Based on the Septuagint

As others said, there are currently several translations of Septuagint:
a) Brenton (both print and online - but in old English)
b) NETS (both print and online - newer, but rather scholarly English)
c) 2001 translation (online: 2001 Translation of the Bible) - open source translation project made by broad community
d) and I think there is some traditional eastern orthodox translation, but its not free/online

The Liturgist · Jan 1, 2022

myst33 said:
and I think there is some traditional eastern orthodox translation, but its not free/online

There is a translation in addition to the Orthodox Study Bible by some more hardcore Old Calendarist types, but I don’t know anything about it. I think its called the Eastern Orthodox Bible.

The Liturgist · Jan 1, 2022

icedragon101 said:
Recently I found out about the problems with the KJV and the Masoretic text which the OT is based on. the would explain some of the contradiction in the Bible. Based on these problems is it time to scrap the KJV and all text based on the Masoretic text and create a NEW Bible Based on the Septuagint, the offical Jewish bible from the 3 century BC

By the way, of those versions, the one I would avoid is the Samaritan; there is an English translation, and you can see where the Samaritans messed with the text owing to their Mount Gerizim obsession, like, for instance, there is an eleventh commandment ordering that worship be done on Mount Gerizim.

I love the Samaritan people, they are a seriously endangered religious minority, and I even have an English translation of the Defter, the Samaritan prayer book (equivalent to a Jewish Siddur; I also have the Karaite Jewish Siddur). However, I think our Lord made it clear that Samaritanism insofar as it is different from Judaism is in error when he said “Salvation comes from the Jews”, and by his worship at the Jerusalem temple, but he also made a point to help the Samaritan woman and to use a Samaritan in his parable of the Good Samaritan, as at the time Samaritans were reviled by Jews, and now because of Christ, their name has become synonymous with virtue.

Torah Keeper · Jan 1, 2022

There are several already. Brenton's English Septuagint, and the Orthodox Study Bible.

Both of these are good for study when comparing difficult to understand verses from the MT. Although it's tough to say which is better. I suspect both the LXX and the MT come from an older source in Paleo Hebrew.

I noticed Josephus agrees with the MT on Lamech's age of first son.

The Liturgist · Jan 1, 2022

Torah Keeper said:
I suspect both the LXX and the MT come from an older source in Paleo Hebrew.

The dead sea scrolls indicate as much.

Torah Keeper said:
I noticed Josephus agrees with the MT on Lamech's age of first son.

I don’t really care that much what Josephus has to say, and I don’t understand why so many do, since he, as far as we know, is one of the Jews contemporaneous with the Apostles who rejected Christ. I would care more if he had lived a century earlier or been among the Jewish converts to Christianity, like the Ethiopian Orthodox Christians or a large number of the Syriac, Antiochian, and Indian Orthodox Christians (and the other Mar Thoma Christians of Malankara, some of whom are purely ethnically Jewish and endogamous, and some of whom are descended from both the Indian population of Malankara and the Malabar Coast, and the Kochin Jews of Kerala, who themselves mostly emigrated to Israel in the 2nd century (Vidal Sassoon was from the prominent Kochin Jewish Sassoon family, who were famed for their philanthropy and are noted in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia) and those of the Assyrian Church of the East. One example of a Jewish convert to Christianity whose writing I love is Mar Gregorios bar Hebraeus, who was the Maphrian (presiding bishop of the Eastern half of the Syriac Orthodox Church in Mesopotamia, subordinate only to the Patriarch of Antioch, who presides over the Western half of the church in Syria, Turkey and Jerusalem) about a thousand years ago.

Torah Keeper · Jan 1, 2022

Yes Josephus isn't the final authority. But his ages of the patriarchs matches neither the LXX or the MT, which leads me to think he had access to other sources. Perhaps Aramaic? In any case what we have now is like a blurry photo compared to the original clear one.

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