Separation of Church and State

[waves]

God gave me a dream just now, where I heard on a radio programme in Jamaica, where hosts Khalilah Reynolds and a male co-host, were talking about the separation of church and state and prayers in school. Khalilah was also saying that there has been a discussion about it.

Let me make this clear yet again, that God exists, and Jesus Christ is the only son of God. Failure to obey, respect and institute God's laws is the reason why we have so many problems in Jamaica. How many times in the news do we read of persons stealing, murdering, and raping others. How many times we have heard of sexually explicit music that even children are singing and dancing to. If we want our nation to change for the better we need to obey and institute God's law.

Look what happened to our economy at the end of 2015 being number 1 in the world. How many time should God prove that he exists and desires to bless us as a nation.

In the 1960's Jamaica was a peaceful nation, anyone could walk anywhere without fear. Now in 2016 this is not true why. This is because we have failed to respect, institute and follow God's law.

I am here to say, the only reason I am alive is because of Jesus Christ. Without him I can't do anything, and the only reason I have been able to get through each day, is because I know that God exists and he is always near me.

 

[alex2165]

Hi waves.

The name of your post was quite intriguing, and I remember posted on this issue a thread named “Serving two masters.”

The point I want to make is that indeed church has to be separated from the state, and the state has to be separated from the church, but unfortunately it never been this way from the beginning, and both entities intertwine very closely with one another.

Government sponsored many churches and many churches are happy to take it out of pure greed. No wonder I noticed in many churches pastors preaching earthly propaganda and glorifying state, and urging parishioners to vote for a certain candidate.

And this is how the Satan enticed majority of the Christians today, to accept government’s handouts and participate in voting for their nominees.

And so among Christians, beside denominational divisions are also exist political divisions, one group of Christians claimed to be Republicans, another Democrat, and some Libertarians.

But I think they do not realizing one important thing that by voting for a politician they forfeit their loyalty and covenant with Christ, because He is the only One Who should rule the Earth and true and legitimate President and King.

Giving your allegiance to another means trying to serve two masters, and as Jesus Himself mentioned about this issue, it never works this way.

Below some passages from the Bible that indicated precisely what it means to serve two masters.

Matthew 6.19-21.24

19.Do not store up for yourselves treasures on Earth where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal,

20.but store up for yourselves treasure in Heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal.

21.Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

24.No one can serve two masters, a slave will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve GOD and wealth.



State is also Wealth because it worships the Dollar, and all life on Earth measured in monetary value by State.

John 17.14.16

14.I have given them Your world, and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

16.They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."



To Philippians 3.20

20."Our citizenship is in Heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,"



Hebrews 11.13-16

13.All these (Abel. Enoch, Noah, Abraham ,and all other patriarch sand holy men of GOD) died in faith without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the Earth.

14.Those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.

15.And indeed, if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.

16.But as it is, they desire a better country, that is a Heavenly one. Therefore, GOD is not ashamed to be called their GOD, He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 13.14

14.Here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come.



1John 4.4-5

4.You are from GOD little children, and have overcome them, because greater is He Who is in you, than he who is in the world.


5.They are from the world, therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.



John 18.36

36.Jesus answered, "My Kingdom is not of this world. If My Kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews, but as it is, My Kingdom is not of this realm."

 

[Greg J.]

The point I want to make is that indeed church has to be separated from the state, and the state has to be separated from the church, but unfortunately it never been this way from the beginning, and both entities intertwine very closely with one another.

I can't think of anything in Scripture that indicates government and church should be separate. You can see that God told Samuel to create a government only because the people had rejected God. In fact, what Paul writes can be interpreted as saying that government is a tool of God. (Governmental authority is from God.)

But I think they do not realizing one important thing that by voting for a politician they forfeit their loyalty and covenant with Christ, because He is the only One Who should rule the Earth and true and legitimate President and King.

Giving your allegiance to another means trying to serve two masters, and as Jesus Himself mentioned about this issue, it never works this way.

I doubt you could find an American who would agree that voting for a president means selecting a god for oneself.

 

[alex2165]

Hi Greg.

You very much answered your own question and your own point of view, indeed GOD against or in support of the governments on Earth, and the reason for this because people abandoned the Lord and rule themselves in the way they want it.

And this is complete and total truth not only with Hebrews who demanded the king for themselves but also with all the nations of the Earth who rejected GOD and His principals and ideals and govern themselves according to their own will.

This of course will be changed to some extend then Christ will come and be the ultimate Ruler and the King of the world and its nations who will come year after year to Jerusalem to worship Him, and we know what will happen to those who would not appear before the Lord to bring Him gifts, to observe His holidays, and to worship Him.

So even the nations of the world would have their own kings in place, Israel on the other hand would not, and the GOD of Israel as He mentioned about Himself throughout the Bible, will be the only One Ruler and King of His people Israel, and Israel no longer would have a king over them, but only the Lord their GOD.

This is also clearly indicates separation of state and the church in its full essence and meaning, and as an example of true and perfect governmental Body of GOD alone.

And while other nations have their kings, they will subdue their authority to One Who above them, because the Lord GOD will rule not only Israel but entire humankind on Earth, and of course separated decisions of the governments on Earth will be analyzed and weighted by GOD in order to approve them or disapprove them.

Today we have this process in reverse, the state dictates the church what to do and what to say, and for what candidate to vote, and this is the state who interfere with church and not the opposite, so in this sense the church today is the subject to the state, sponsored by it and lead by it.

And this is why it is so important to separate the church from the state in order for the church to do the will of GOD and not the will of state.

Those Christians who involved in the matters of state are servants to the state and forsake the authority of the Lord and His will by being subjects to the state and its will.

Selecting the authorities for the state whatever the president or some state official, means to subdue yourself to the state and be part of it, and at the same time leaving behind the authority of the Lord.

It is also well known to us who rule this world and to whom it was given for some while.

John12.31-32

31.Now is the judgment of this world, now the ruler of this world will be driven out.

32.And I when I am lifted up from the Earth, will draw all people to Myself.”



John 14.30

30."I will no longer talk much with you, the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over Me,"


John 16.11

11."about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned."



And now answer this question, “Whom our politicians serve, GOD or Satan?”

As far as I can see, earthly politicians never served GOD but only the Satan, and this is why our world in such poor shape.

This means that those Christians who serve politicians became servant of the one who opposes the GOD, and allegiance of the Christians have been changed from GOD to Satan, and subsequently they become the servants of the Satan and not of GOD.

It is also true that Paul teach to respect earthly authorities and be law abiding citizens. Paul meant by this statement that if the law of the government does not interfere with the Law of GOD to which we are subjects as Christians, then we can obey the law of our politicians and respect them for this.

But if the law of the politician goes against the principals of GOD to which we are subjects, then we shall disobey their law, for which many of the Apostles and their disciples, and all following believers in GOD sacrificed their lives not submitting themselves to the ungodly rules and regulations of the earthly authorities.

So pick you chose with whom you stand and whom you prefer to serve, but remember one thing, you cannot serve GOD and mammon, you cannot serve two masters.

 

[Greg J.]

God expects us to be servants to our government. It is incorrect reasoning to say we should resist whatever God didn't want. God gives us commands according to our circumstance and what we are capable of doing. Except for the first command for Adam and Eve, God never wanted to give us commands, but humans' sinful actions made them necessary for our best interest.

This is a model for our behavior under government, which is also confirmed in the NT:

This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the LORD for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” (bold mine, Jeremiah 29:4-7, 1984 NIV)

All rebellion in the heart is sin, no matter what the rebellion is toward. When rebelling against the government, it is not the government one rebels against, it is God. All who obey legitimate authorities will be blessed by God.

The reason governments have always been screwed up is because those in authority (as well as its citizens) live as people rejecting God. Rather than us resisting government, God says he will hold the leaders accountable for their actions at the proper time. I'm not talking about when the government wants someone to sin, which is resolved on a case-by-case basis. Daniel continued to pray when the government said it was illegal. God intervened. Our trust in government should be trust in God to be Lord of all, who is not impaired from using any and all means for completing his purposes, including through his chosen instruments of his will.

For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. (Romans 13:4, 1984 NIV)

The idea of separating church and state is a human idea and is the result of sin. It puts a layer (or multiple layers) of authority into the hands of fallen people in between the people and God. But just because it came about as the result of sin doesn't mean God is thence silent on everything related. Rather, like the result of all sin, he gives commands to help us. Jesus died so we could be restored to personal and corporate relationship with God directly.

To serve the government is to be salt and light to the fallen world. Things have gotten so bad that it is easy to see the need for people to be light in the fallen world. But it isn't for everyone.

“You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. (Matthew 5:14-16, 1984 NIV)

 

[Sketcher]

Neither Jesus nor the Apostles taught that the church's morals should be enforced through the state. In fact, the church grew mightily in its first 300 years, before Rome officially tolerated it. Furthermore, if separation of church and state is removed, then you consequently have a state church. Other religions may or may not have freedom, depending on how tolerant the government decides to be of them. But at the end of the day, some of your tax dollars would be going to support the state church, which would most assuredly not be non-denominational. In fact, the people most open in the US that I have talked to that are the most open to having a state church are Catholics, with the state church being Catholic. That's as far from non-denominational Christianity as you can get from an organizational standpoint.

 

[alex2165]

To Greg.

You wrote:

“This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the LORD for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” (bold mine, Jeremiah 29:4-7, 1984 NIV)”

Here you are mixing apples and oranges, GOD gave this command to Hebrews not to obey those who conquered them and resettled them from their land, but to subdue to their oppressors and endure their punishment for disobedience and evil they committed against the Lord their GOD.

At that time some of the remnant of Judeans decided to go to Egypt instead to live in Judah or be resettled in Babylon, and the Lord GOD also warned them that the king of Babylon would put his tent at the palace of the king of Egypt and will conduct a great slaughter in Egypt included those Judeans who would dare to go back to Egypt, of which GOD strictly forbid.

Rebellion against punishment of GOD is the same as to rebel against GOD Himself. Another word, GOD teach Judeans a lesson meaning, if you do not want to be under My rule, then how good it will be for you to live under someone else rule. It is also means, that if you will obey foreign power over you and subdue yourself to them, then you surely will obey Me when I return you back to your land. The punishment was temporary, only for 70 years.

Jeremiah 29.10

10.This says the Lord, 'When seventy years have been completed for Babylon (2Chronicles 36.22) (Ezra 1.1) (Jeremiah 25.11, 29.10) (Daniel 9.2) (Zechariah 1.12, 7.4-5), I will visit you and fulfill My good Word to you, to bring you back to this place.



You wrote:

“For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. (Romans 13:4, 1984 NIV)”

As I mentioned before, no government will exist without approval of the Lord, and if governments considered being the servants of the Lord, this can happen only in those cases there the government follow godly principals and ideals and passes godly laws, then they are truly servants of the Lord, and this is exactly that the Paul meant when he wrote about obedience to authorities.

But if the same government does ungodly things and passes ungodly laws against principals and ideals of GOD, then how it is possible that Christians will follow the rules, regulations, and the laws which are ungodly, satanic, and demonic in their nature, and praise the government for it and obey it, can you answer this question Greg?

We live today under government which doing exactly that, passing godly and ungodly laws, and so, do you obey all the laws and praise the government for them, or you resist those laws what are ungodly in their nature?

Do you accept same sex marriages and at the same time also accept anti-abortions laws?

I can see that you twisting passages of the Bible in order to prove your point, but is it really fair and reasonable on your behalf?

Above all Jesus never been involved in government affairs and His Apostles as well, nor all the followers and disciples of Christ.

John 17.14-16

14."I have given them Your world, and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15.I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

16.They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."



John 18.36

36.Jesus answered, "My Kingdom is not of this world. If My Kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews, but as it is, My Kingdom is not of this realm."



To Philippians 3.20

20."Our citizenship is in Heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,"



Hebrews 11.13-16

13.All these (Abel. Enoch, Noah, Abraham ,and all other patriarch sand holy men of GOD) died in faith without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the Earth.

14.Those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.

15.And indeed, if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.

16.But as it is, they desire a better country, that is a Heavenly one. Therefore, GOD is not ashamed to be called their GOD, He has prepared a city for them.



Hebrews 13.14

14.Here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come.



1John 4.4-6

4.You are from GOD little children, and have overcome them, because greater is He Who is in you, than he who is in the world.


5.They are from the world, therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.


6.We are from GOD, he who knows GOD listens to us, he who is not from GOD does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error.



1John 5.4

4.Whoever is born of GOD overcomes the world, and this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith.



And I also agree with Sketcher who said that if church not separated from the state, it become the state church, and this is exactly happen with many Christian churches today, they become state-churches, sponsored, regulated, censored, and rule by the state, which means that such church is DEAD.

 

[FanthatSpark]

The double standard:

One rule (by state) is . To be tax exempt, a church can not be political. In effect this separates the flock that they can not through church come together under the umbrella of tax exempt church and/or churches that keeps the people of conscious morality singular by its very nature set by state in qualifying in exempt status by rules set by the state .
See the double standard by state? Now if a church decides to have a voice of many in the arena of politics another double standard that favors the state is in place. In one of thousands of issues of morality vs money in picture it looks like this.... Any issue to be rebuffed is/was supported by the tax the church pays in the double standard of modern constitutional manipulation that has deviated from the people to the dollar &/or corporation. In picture, it is privilege of the haves to buy domestic law that in turn makes us lawless like the Wells Fargo exec. In another picture, in international law, we create said law but do not follow it which equates to lawless nation as it is written in the Words prophesy chapter.

Thus, one must talk to the congregation of our particular church to leave the comfort zone of the umbrella and get our constitution back. The sheep scenario is complacency (easy, let somebody else fix us) and some churches preach this as it can not be involved depending on exempt status. This equates to pray that's all we can do. One forgets righteous anger even Jesus displayed to a wrong doing. Where we get it bent is trying to singularize the event not to wrong doing but physical place of the wrong doing to a church.

Lost is the lesson of Spirit to all things anywhere in the lesson of righteous anger. This is not a lets go turn tables over in congress post but a focusing on the crux of double standard constitutional manipulation as the source . Once again one reiterates in this thread as in others. When corporations where amended to the constitution to be seen as entities (a person) this placed dollar over morality or another view but same outcome , snatched "the people" out of the constitution in place of the corporation/dollar has manifested. This equals present classes of people in these three, rich, middle class & poor... With privileges applied to the very class one finds themselves in . A picture, Wall Street exec and a poor man rob a bank but only one can go to jail...Which one? Julian Assange & Hillary both mishandle documents ... Which one? See privileges to the flesh?

A humble opinion. Think on it a while . Research the amendment that recognizes corporations, money, capitalism above the people, planet and law and its history. That's the source . Hope this edifies that it effects church too. Research 503c that incorporates a church too (tax law) manipulated by state in "rules to qualify" is state stepping across the myth of separation of church & state. IMHO.