'Seminaries would be full, if celibacy was optional'

Fantine;

What is the difference, I ask you, between a priest living in a rectory in a parish, praying the divine office by himself, ministering to his parish, and attending regular retreats and workshops with his fellow priests, and a nun who is doing the same?

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A priest working in ministry is required to wear his clerical garb.

Also, priest bring the sacraments to the sick and shut ins which include last rites and confession.

The ministries are not the same.

Are you afraid that if a nun with a driver's license and a pantsuit works in a parish and lives in a nearby apartment she might actually develop a mind of her own? Do they need the protection of the other nuns to keep them from "falling out of line?"

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I have no problem with a nun driving a car doing ministry. However, I think she should wear the garments that symbolize her commitment as a bride of Christ. I'm not talking the old habits ala Mother Angelica, but a simple veil with a cross, or a simple blazer and skirt, something to let people know that she is in fact a nun. I think Sister Carol Keehan of the Catholic Health Care Association is a fine example of a modern day nun.
5 Questions with Sister Carol Keehan, D.C. on health care reform | USCatholic.org

Years ago, a diocesan nun who came to our parish to give talks to the first communion class, dressed better than the women of the parish in designer clothes. Not only did she not look like a nun, she didn't behave like on either. Her theology was so far fetch and her dislike for Pope John Paul II was so adamant, the parishioners asked the dioceses never to send her again. She retired not long after but I'm not sure of the reasons.

I thought she was perhaps just one nun who was in rebellion but it turned out, her entire order had run amok.

Jim

Athanasias said:

My Seminary in St. Louis is busting at the seems and they had to add several additions on to it becasue of all the seminary students. These men want to be celibate. So no problem in St. Louis.

It is interesting that the orthodox communities of nuns and priest are growing and rapidly as Oprah has demonstrated with her Dominican nuns with a average age of 26 whose order tripled recently in number, but the Progressive orders are shrinking and made of predominantly gray haired women and men.

Seems like Orthodoxy(truth) is important to this young generation who also has studied Vatican II!!

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Well that's great and I don't mean to down play the success, but I think if you take a closer look, you'll find that the increase of seminarians in that seminary, are the result of other seminaries closing and the dioceses combining their seminaries with other dioceses.

Here in Massachusetts it was reported that St. John's seminary had doubled the number of seminarians. However, what many people missed was the fact that seminaries throughout New England were closed down, and dioceses were sending all their candidates for the priesthood to St. Johns. The total number of seminarians for the New England Diocese was still less than 1/4 than they were 20 years ago.

Jim

SpiritualAntiseptic

Nuns are counterparts to monks, not priests....

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Not exactly. Monks are cloistered, not so all nuns. Nuns are more akin to permanant deacons or brothers.

Jim

DesertSky said:

What a load.

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No substance, just attack.

Jim

JimR-OCDS said:

Fantine;



A priest working in ministry is required to wear his clerical garb.

Also, priest bring the sacraments to the sick and shut ins which include last rites and confession.

The ministries are not the same.




I have no problem with a nun driving a car doing ministry. However, I think she should wear the garments that symbolize her commitment as a bride of Christ. I'm not talking the old habits ala Mother Angelica, but a simple veil with a cross, or a simple blazer and skirt, something to let people know that she is in fact a nun. I think Sister Carol Keehan of the Catholic Health Care Association is a fine example of a modern day nun.
5 Questions with Sister Carol Keehan, D.C. on health care reform | USCatholic.org

Years ago, a diocesan nun who came to our parish to give talks to the first communion class, dressed better than the women of the parish in designer clothes. Not only did she not look like a nun, she didn't behave like on either. Her theology was so far fetch and her dislike for Pope John Paul II was so adamant, the parishioners asked the dioceses never to send her again. She retired not long after but I'm not sure of the reasons.

I thought she was perhaps just one nun who was in rebellion but it turned out, her entire order had run amok.

Jim

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I have seen many priests wearing civvies during their work day. Just two days ago, I was delivering some fund-raising flyers to a nearby parish, and the priest greeted me in a sweatsuit.

The sisters I know who wear 'designer clothes' are often the most humble. They wear designer clothes because those are the hand-me-downs that generous laywomen donate to their clothes closets. They wear the hand-me-downs because they have taken a vow of poverty and don't want to spend money on purchased clothes when there are perfectly good hand-me-downs in the convent closet.

The ministries of a sister and a priest in a parish are not the same. The sister may teach RCIA or be a religious education director, she may work in compassionate care for the needy, lead Bible studies or small church communities, be a spiritual director, do counseling. Nevertheless, she is often an integral part of parish life and the 'leaven' it needs. I would much rather see every parish in a diocese with one or two sisters serving as pastoral ministers rather than a traditional convent filled with 25 year-old nuns all working in one school. It might do a lot of good for that one parish, but what about all the others?

The last study I saw indicated that about half of all new vocations go to the habited orders--the other half go to the orders most of us grew up with. There is no indication whatsoever that if every order in the country went back to wearing habits that there would be ten times as many vocations as there are today...indeed, if you look at the statistics, there might be only half as many vocations as there are today.

Fantine;

I have seen many priests wearing civvies during their work day. Just two days ago, I was delivering some fund-raising flyers to a nearby parish, and the priest greeted me in a sweatsuit.

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At home yes, but when a priest goes out in public, i.e. visiting the sick etc, he's required to wear his clerical garb. Not all obey, but they're suppose to.

The sisters I know who wear 'designer clothes' are often the most humble. They wear designer clothes because those are the hand-me-downs that generous laywomen donate to their clothes closets. They wear the hand-me-downs because they have taken a vow of poverty and don't want to spend money on purchased clothes when there are perfectly good hand-me-downs in the convent closet.

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Wearing the clerical habit of a nun is a symbol of humility. Those who don't generally have an agenda of their own. I'm not saying its always, but generally, nuns wear humble clothing, that still signifies they are nuns.

My wife knew that the nun who I mentioned, was buying designer clothing and she had her hair done up, wore jewelry and had her nails done. She looked like a high-class woman of society, not even close to a nun. Her behavior also said something about her agenda.

The ministries of a sister and a priest in a parish are not the same. The sister may teach RCIA or be a religious education director, she may work in compassionate care for the needy, lead Bible studies or small church communities, be a spiritual director, do counseling. Nevertheless, she is often an integral part of parish life and the 'leaven' it needs. I would much rather see every parish in a diocese with one or two sisters serving as pastoral ministers rather than a traditional convent filled with 25 year-old nuns all working in one school. It might do a lot of good for that one parish, but what about all the others?

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Me too and in fact, we have a such a parish. The nuns are the Sisters of St. Joseph. However, they still wear a simple veil and gray or blue blazer and skirt. They live in part of the parish rectory assigned to them. They no longer have the numbers to justify living in the parish convent, which will probably be sold off at some point.

The last study I saw indicated that about half of all new vocations go to the habited orders--the other half go to the orders most of us grew up with. There is no indication whatsoever that if every order in the country went back to wearing habits that there would be ten times as many vocations as there are today...indeed, if you look at the statistics, there might be only half as many vocations as there are today.

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Well I'm not sure of the stats, but I do know that cloistered orders, both monks and nuns are up. However, the nuns I mentioned above, the Sisters of St Joseph, don't have any new postulants that know of. BTW, this very same order in this chapter, back in the 1940's, helped Sen. Joseph's Lieberman's wife's family, when they escaped the holocaust and came to this country. The nuns gave them a room in their own building until they were able to set them up in their own apartment. Mrs Lieberman visited the sisters back when he was running for VP with Al Gore.

Jim

JimR-OCDS said:

SpiritualAntiseptic



Not exactly. Monks are cloistered, not so all nuns. Nuns are more akin to permanant deacons or brothers.

Jim

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It doesn't matter if one is cloistered or not. Community is part of religious life, but that is often neglected today.

Fantine said:

Back to the nuns...didn't someone say something about nuns here?

About how they should stop being pastoral counselors wearing "pantsuits" and "driving cars."

What is the difference, I ask you, between a priest living in a rectory in a parish, praying the divine office by himself, ministering to his parish, and attending regular retreats and workshops with his fellow priests, and a nun who is doing the same?

Are you afraid that if a nun with a driver's license and a pantsuit works in a parish and lives in a nearby apartment she might actually develop a mind of her own? Do they need the protection of the other nuns to keep them from "falling out of line?"

I have never heard such patronizing, misogynistic fallacies in my life....

Yes, they are leaven when they minister in parishes. Many of us have developed close relationships with the sisters who minister in our parishes and are grateful that they are willing to live away from their communities to minister to us.

Hopefully our gratitude will make up for the ingratitude and disrespect of others.

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I would think those people, however, would say the same about monks, too. I don't know about in the WR, but in the East nuns are not female versions of priests but rather of monks.

I'm not saying there is not misogyny in anyone's minds, it's just that for me the orders seem very different. There used to be a celibate priest at an Orthodox parish up north from me but jsut because he was celibate did not make him a monk in any way. My guess would be the same thing in the RCC.

Just some thoughts.

Josh

Oops, I see others have made some of the same points I have. Sorry for repeating them!

SpiritualAntiseptic said:

It doesn't matter if one is cloistered or not. Community is part of religious life, but that is often neglected today.

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That is true. If you see a parish with one priest from a religious order, something is wrong.

Point of clarification:

Nuns in the Catholic Church are cloistered, live a hidden life of prayer, and profess the three vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. Cloistered nuns do not leave their monastery, but engage in making altar bread, baking banana and pumpkin bread, sewing vestments and other religious articles, making jams, cookies, candy, divinity, fudge, and candles, writing icons, and doing other community work that can support their community without the necessity of leaving their monastery. They come together for the Divine Office throughout the day and for the Mass every day in their monastery chapel. Many nuns wake at midnight to pray Matins.

Sisters, on the other hand, live an active lifestyle either teaching elementary, high school or college students, nursing, or doing some kind of social or administrative work. They work in schools, hospitals, mental health centers, and parish ministry. They do not have as intensive a prayer life as do the nuns. However, they do live a community life with daily prayers together (lauds, vespers, and compline) and the celebration of the Mass. Yet, many sisters go to their parish for Mass.

Nuns and sisters take the three vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.

Diocesan Priests and Deacons do not take any religious vows. They promise to live a celibate life (never marrying). However, they do not live a religious lifestyle with community prayers and a vowed life.

Religious Priests, Deacons, and Brothers live a vowed monastic lifestyle. They take the three vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. Some monks also take a vow of stability. Some monks live a cloistered lifestyle like the Trappist, while many monks live an active lifestyle and help teach in high schools and colleges, work in hospitals, or serve in parishes.

Very helpful, ReginaMaria. Thank you.

To fill in even more detail, deacons in the western church may be married men.

Sisters do not always take vows. Depending on their community, it may be promises, committments, etc. Their vows might also be different than the three mentioned, but generally not.

Like women, male religious are also distinct between monastic communities and religious orders like the Jesuits, Dominicans, Paulists, etc.

Thanks, Katherine.

I thought all finally professed sisters took the three vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. Are there different types of religious communities?

I do not mean to derail this thread, but it is important to realize that Sisters and Nuns are not like Diocesan Priests and Deacons.

Like you said, Deacons can be married or celibate, but Permanent Deacons can live in their own homes, whereas Diocesan Priests usually stay in a rectory apartment. Neither Diocesan Priests nor Diocesan Deacons have the support of a religious community.

MariaRegina said:

Thanks, Katherine.

I thought all finally professed sisters took the three vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. Are there different types of religious communities?

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It depends on whatever Rule the community follows. The Benedictine nuns take vows of obedience, stability and conversion of life. Celibacy and poverty are not specifically mentioned.

The Little Sisters of the Poor take FOUR vows: chastity, poverty, obedience and hospitality.

Some orders (non-monastic) do not take vows but makes promises out of a sense of simplicity and humility.

Each Order or Community has its own history and charism. You point out the most important differenc (monastic and active apostolate) but really each is its own tradition.

SpiritualAntiseptic said:

It doesn't matter if one is cloistered or not. Community is part of religious life, but that is often neglected today.

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The rule of life for a cloistered order is different than one with an active ministry.

Community is more important for some than others, and male cloistered orders are less community oriented than female cloistered orders.

Jim

When sisters are active in ministry, it may not be possible for them to live together in one large motherhouse.

But things are very different today than they were years ago.

Let's say those traditional orders--the Nashville or Ann Arbor Dominicans--decide that it would be more apostolic to send two sisters out to teach in every Catholic school in the diocese rather than keeping them all in one school so that they could live in one motherhouse.

Years ago they would be isolated.

But today they could all pray together, at least in the morning and evening, through videoconferencing. The main videoconferencing site would be at the motherhouse chapel, but the sisters on mission could join the others via computer, praying at the same altar and joining their voices.

Videoconferencing is a way to bring sisters and brothers together and keep them informed, even if they are as far away as South America or Africa.

I stand by my position. It is better to have one or two sisters in each parish than to keep the entire group at one. It would be good if they could be in, perhaps, a 100 mile radius, so that they could come home once a week, perhaps Friday to Saturday nights.

JimR-OCDS said:

The rule of life for a cloistered order is different than one with an active ministry.

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Yes, I know.

Community is more important for some than others, and male cloistered orders are less community oriented than female cloistered orders.

Jim

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No where did I say that every order or even community had the same emphasis on it. They all have community life as an aspect- but it varies. My issue is with those that have an affiliation with a religious order and then don't do anything with their community hardly.

Fantine said:

When sisters are active in ministry, it may not be possible for them to live together in one large motherhouse.

But things are very different today than they were years ago.

Let's say those traditional orders--the Nashville or Ann Arbor Dominicans--decide that it would be more apostolic to send two sisters out to teach in every Catholic school in the diocese rather than keeping them all in one school so that they could live in one motherhouse.

Years ago they would be isolated.

But today they could all pray together, at least in the morning and evening, through videoconferencing. The main videoconferencing site would be at the motherhouse chapel, but the sisters on mission could join the others via computer, praying at the same altar and joining their voices.

Videoconferencing is a way to bring sisters and brothers together and keep them informed, even if they are as far away as South America or Africa.

I stand by my position. It is better to have one or two sisters in each parish than to keep the entire group at one. It would be good if they could be in, perhaps, a 100 mile radius, so that they could come home once a week, perhaps Friday to Saturday nights.

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Regardless of what the ministry, order and community is, there is supposed to be some level of community. The problem is that some nuns (and monks) have basically become secular priests without holy orders.

Community is about more than phone calls and teleconferencing. Some situations, which should be exceptions, call for men and women in religious orders to spend time away from their community for long periods. That should be the exception, but it has become a rule.

It's perhaps just a issue that I personally take with religious orders. The Church sees religious life in an even higher view than secular priests. That is because they have fewer freedoms, live out in a greater sense of obedience, have to life in poverty and so forth. There are also lots of benefits to it, but it makes no sense when one claims to be religious and then lives like a secular.

Imagine, if you will- two parishes within five miles of each other. In one parish rectory is a secular priest. He has a car, lives according to a schedule he makes, he lives alone, he has money budgeted for him that he chooses to do with as he pleases. Then you have in the other parish a religious priest who has a car, lives according to a schedule he makes, he lives alone, he has money budgeted for him that he chooses to do with as he please. Why is he living the same life as the secular, despite the fact he has pledged not to be secular? Where is his community? Where is his strict obedience?

Now imagine two houses within 5 miles of each other. In one is a sister who has a car, workes at a nearby parish and school, lives according to a schedule she makes, she lives alone, she has money budgeted for her that she chooses to do with as she pleases. In the other house is a single woman who has a car, workes at a nearby parish and school, lives according to a schedule she makes, she lives alone, she has money budgeted for her that she chooses to do with as she pleases.

What we need today are people willing to make radical commitments and live in ways different than the rest of us. Religious life, at one time, stood as a testament to Christian life. It stood for what was best. They shared all things in common, they lived, worked and worshipped together. They lived in obedience to one person.

KatherineS said:

That is true. If you see a parish with one priest from a religious order, something is wrong.

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That happens a lot.

Now, religious men and women are in short supply. Priests are too- and much of what happens today is necessary. However, it should be avoided like the plague.

SpiritualAntiseptic said:

That happens a lot.

Now, religious men and women are in short supply. Priests are too- and much of what happens today is necessary. However, it should be avoided like the plague.

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I've never seen a religious order have one priest assigned to a parish. Diocesan priest this is common, but religious orders being from a religious
community usually share the responsibility. Many like Carmelites, live at the monastery and travel to the parish they are assigned to on a daily basis.

Jim