Selling secular Stuff

Blade · May 4, 2022

Hi.. I can not speak for you nor can anyone else. Pray about it and YOU do what YOU believe. The music alone.. there are wow TONS of music out there that not of God yet its not evil in any way. If I had some ACDC music.. no I would not sell or give it away. Thats just me! So you do what you believe is best. Jesus is VERY real. Asking here is great but in the end we tend to share our personal believe.

I see nothing wrong here at all.. thats just me.

WolfGate · May 4, 2022

Blade said:
Hi.. I can not speak for you nor can anyone else. Pray about it and YOU do what YOU believe. The music alone.. there are wow TONS of music out there that not of God yet its not evil in any way. If I had some ACDC music.. no I would not sell or give it away. Thats just me! So you do what you believe is best. Jesus is VERY real. Asking here is great but in the end we tend to share our personal believe.

I see nothing wrong here at all.. thats just me.

It's not just you! Even though I might choose differently with the same items, the OP should do what he feels convicted to do in this type of situation. Would be silly of me (or anyone else) to think that the Holy Spirit will always direct us all to do the same thing.

jameshjr · May 9, 2022

Blade said:
Hi.. I can not speak for you nor can anyone else. Pray about it and YOU do what YOU believe. The music alone.. there are wow TONS of music out there that not of God yet its not evil in any way. If I had some ACDC music.. no I would not sell or give it away. Thats just me! So you do what you believe is best. Jesus is VERY real. Asking here is great but in the end we tend to share our personal believe.

I see nothing wrong here at all.. thats just me.

Hello Blade, thank you for the message.

The point that you make in your message has been on my mind and i feel as though i have to address it:

I disagree that music that is not of God is not evil- or at least against God.

Take for example ACDC: my old favourite song: 'you shook me all night long' is a song about a loose woman whom the 'singer' had a one night stand with.

Or another ACDC 'classic': 'highway to hell' a song glorifying the fact that they, and their fans are going to hell.

Do these things sound neutral to you? does Jesus not say: "those who are not for me, are against me"?
Can you be enjoying music about adultery, loose women, excessive drinking etc etc, and be gathering with Him at the same time?

A final point on this, for some reason, on my youtube homepage, it reccommends that i watch a clip from the Joe rogan podcast where he interview Josh HOmme (from Queens of the stone age). the title of the clip is: "How do QOTSA right songs?".

This is the thumbnail for the video (and the album cover of their album 'villians':

Before i was saved by Christ. i would have thought nothing of this. But it is in plain sight and undeniable now. If i didnt know better, it is almost unbelievable that i could ever have been so blind.

jameshjr · May 9, 2022

Sophrosyne said:
I think you are likely in a sense trying to think that people are like someone allergic to carrots and trying to protect everyone from eating them. Unless something is obviously satanic in nature or you are selling it to someone who is really messed up in some way most secular stuff is not going to be a stumbling block that is terminal in their lives.

Likely the shirt and the rolling stones albums are not a problem as people who have problems with idols they aren't worshiping a piece of clothing at all and very likely the stones album will appeal to older people who already have other stuff that is likely similar or a lot worse etc and if a believer aren't a stumbling block to their relationship with God. Unless God prompts you to toss something, and that may be more for your sake not the buyer as "purging" yourself of an item may be a sort of turning point of ridding yourself of something that (to you) was a personal stumbling block but not most people.

As we aren't supposed to be the source of others stumbling we also have to realize that people who live in rocky terrain are either always stumbling or rather resistant to stumbling anyway. One could say that we should consider someone actually having their life turned upsidedown by an injury due to stumbling vs minor trippage that we all experience in life anyway and that is often a good thing in that it is a part of conditioning our body to walk in the beginning babies stumble and trip till they get their legs under them.

Those who isolate themselves totally from secular society will have nothing to stumble on, but if they have to interact with that society will be ill prepared for what (to them) is a minefield of rocks to trip over vs someone that has been a rock climber and thinks nothing of it whatsoever.

I have a lot of music from the 70s and 80s and enjoy it, I'm not into acid rock or death metal or all that stuff that is either satanic or pretending to be it or music with lyrics that I can't ignore at all and still enjoy the musicians. One could consider the idol meat episode in the bible where Paul himself has no problem with eating the meat sacrificed to idols at all but others it deeply disturbs them. One could say that if you aren't used to people going on and on with crude language around you it can be very toxic.... even if you are used to it it can still be tiring and draining and irritating but the biggest problem is if it drags you into participating in the lifestyle of those and partaking in it. I've pretty much gotten rid of cussing and such in my life but am around people who often cannot speak 2 sentences without an F bomb or talk more than an hour without denigrating someone else with some sort of sexual rant concerning them. Resisting such stuff varies by the individual for sure some folks it is not a huge problem others would be sucked into (by peer pressure of sorts) being like one of them.

All in all I think focus should be on big boulders in secular stuff rather than tiny rocks on secular stuff when trying to regain your funds. The fact that God didn't bring it to mind these things you have is a problem to being with till you decided to pare things down (to me) means that either these items are not harmful at all for the most part or not harmful to you overall. Trust your gut and just simply sell what you can and if you really are concerned about an item set it aside for a month if it is worth a considerable amount and revisit it then. When I was going through my parents estate I didn't know the value of a lot of stuff they had and instead of tossing it as junk I set it aside and later when someone who was hired to do an estate sale sold an item I kept that I considered worth about $3 if even that for $3000 I was glad I didn't toss it. Find someone around you that is wise and discuss things as trying to discuss things online is a crap shoot as to getting good advice you can get a lot of bad advice and have to filter it out for good advice too and at times personal feelings and stuff cannot be judged properly via text.... it often takes eye to eye and voice and being there in person to get the full picture of it all.

Hello thank you for the message.

i think that your opinion on this is affected by your enjoyment of secular music. I have responded to another poster about this and think it is something to be wary of:

i used to love secular music but concluded a whiles back that it is against God. If a song is written by someone who does not have the Holy spirit, how can they write a song that could be pleasing to God, and if you listen to a song that is not pleasing to God, would He be pleased with you listening to it?

I think that the more we stand against these seemingly small and trivial things, the more courage we will have to take stands (in every day life situations around unsaved people) on 'bigger' issues and to stand up for our faith, even when we know it will go down like a led balloon.

To make it clear, i have not worn, read, or listened to any of the stuff i am getting rid of, because the holy spirit would not let me. I did wonder- which i suppose i suspected anyway- if it was okay for me to make money off of it; but i have concluded that it is wrong, and i will be binning it, even if some of it is valauble.

Thanks again for the message, God bless.

Sophrosyne · May 9, 2022

jameshjr said:
Hello thank you for the message.

i think that your opinion on this is affected by your enjoyment of secular music. I have responded to another poster about this and think it is something to be wary of:

i used to love secular music but concluded a whiles back that it is against God. If a song is written by someone who does not have the Holy spirit, how can they write a song that could be pleasing to God, and if you listen to a song that is not pleasing to God, would He be pleased with you listening to it?

I think that the more we stand against these seemingly small and trivial things, the more courage we will have to take stands (in every day life situations around unsaved people) on 'bigger' issues and to stand up for our faith, even when we know it will go down like a led balloon.

To make it clear, i have not worn, read, or listened to any of the stuff i am getting rid of, because the holy spirit would not let me. I did wonder- which i suppose i suspected anyway- if it was okay for me to make money off of it; but i have concluded that it is wrong, and i will be binning it, even if some of it is valauble.

Thanks again for the message, God bless.

I will say... read Paul's writings..... carefully and pay attention to what you are thinking/doing vs what he focuses on.

rebornfree · May 9, 2022

jameshjr said:
To make it clear, i have not worn, read, or listened to any of the stuff i am getting rid of, because the holy spirit would not let me.

I think that is your answer. If the Holy Spirit won't let you do it then it's probably best not to give/sell it to anyone else. Let Him be your guide.

jameshjr · May 10, 2022

Sophrosyne said:
I will say... read Paul's writings..... carefully and pay attention to what you are thinking/doing vs what he focuses on.

I am not an expert in Pauls writings and am unsure as to how i am misunderstanding his teaching. Would you please explain this to me?

Sophrosyne · May 10, 2022

jameshjr said:
I am not an expert in Pauls writings and am unsure as to how i am misunderstanding his teaching. Would you please explain this to me?

No. I think when you are searching for wisdom then you can understand. You already have pretty much concluded I'm wrong and I don't want anything Paul wrote to be rejected because of possible bias against myself.
I do wish to add that God loves us while we were sinners, and Paul's Gospel of Grace. With this I'm unsubscribing from the thread.

jameshjr · May 11, 2022

Sophrosyne said:
No. I think when you are searching for wisdom then you can understand. You already have pretty much concluded I'm wrong and I don't want anything Paul wrote to be rejected because of possible bias against myself.
I do wish to add that God loves us while we were sinners, and Paul's Gospel of Grace. With this I'm unsubscribing from the thread.

No offence was intended. i understand from Paul that we are no longer under the law; however we are still not to sin.

From my understanding of Paul, there is no justification to listen to secular music for the sake of 'enjoyment'.

If anyone can point out my misunderstanding, i think i would be willing to consider it.

WolfGate · May 12, 2022

jameshjr said:
No offence was intended. i understand from Paul that we are no longer under the law; however we are still not to sin.

From my understanding of Paul, there is no justification to listen to secular music for the sake of 'enjoyment'.

If anyone can point out my misunderstanding, i think i would be willing to consider it.

If the Holy Spirit has convicted you to not listen to secular music, then you should follow that. People who question His guidance of you because He has not guided them the same way are wrong.

By the same measure, your sentence above is trying to project your guidance onto others.

Things in this world do not fall into only two categories: pro-God and anti-God. Many, even most, things are neutral in that respect. If we go back to songs for a minutes, there are 10s of thousands of songs written by non-Christians which are (obviously) not praising God but which also cover topics in a way that doesn't go against the teachings of the Bible. A Christian listening to those really cannot be considered sinning, unless the Holy Spirit has convicted him personally otherwise.

jameshjr · May 12, 2022

WolfGate said:
If the Holy Spirit has convicted you to not listen to secular music, then you should follow that. People who question His guidance of you because He has not guided them the same way are wrong.

By the same measure, your sentence above is trying to project your guidance onto others.

Things in this world do not fall into only two categories: pro-God and anti-God. Many, even most, things are neutral in that respect. If we go back to songs for a minutes, there are 10s of thousands of songs written by non-Christians which are (obviously) not praising God but which also cover topics in a way that doesn't go against the teachings of the Bible. A Christian listening to those really cannot be considered sinning, unless the Holy Spirit has convicted him personally otherwise.

Thank you for responding to this.

I did write out a response to your message, however, once i got to the end of it, it did occur to me that, perhaps i have been convicted of this to a greater degree than other people because i used to 'play along' with secular music daily for at least half an hour up until a few months ago.

The notion that the Holy ghost convicts us all differently, was one that i was unsure about; but i will think about it more.

Perhaps, i was convicted of this because i was making it into an idol, and was shown how it is against God. As a result, i have not been able to listen to it for enjoyment for months.

The same is true for secular movies, for the most part; however, i can every now and then watch one that is not overtly sinful, but am aware during the movie of the sin in it.

I apologise @Sophrosyne and @Blade if i was overly zealous on this.

Thanks again @WolfGate for the message.

InChristAlone525 · May 14, 2022

I share your convictions. There are many Christians who have not been down the road you have been down so they may not understand the more black and white take on it. My husband and I had a radical transformation from living a life of sin to not wanting anything to do with it anymore. We deleted all of the most secular music we had, he took down his Led Zeppelin poster and replaced it with a poster that had a bible verse on it, and we generally only listen to Christian music now. We don't say all secular music is sinful, but we don't want anything to do with that lifestyle anymore. It was a part of a sinful lifestyle for us and for many who have had a transformation. We also don't watch most movies and tv shows anymore. From the outside it would seem too legalistic, but if you knew our story you'd understand why we want nothing to do with it anymore.

As far as selling those items. Personally I would not, but again it's based on our radical transformation.

ViaCrucis · May 24, 2022

jameshjr said:
Hey all, i hope that you are well.

I am trying to be A) neater and B) a better steward.

So i've been routing around my wardbrobes and cupboards and have come across a lot of stuff, which i bought before Jesus became my Lord and saviour.

They are items like James brown albums, Rolling stones merchandise (lots of), and books written by secular authors (not aggressively against christianity).

I am either giving them away, or thinking of selling the ones that have high value (is this itself wrong?).

My question is this: is it wrong to give away or sell items that are secular, and in some instances, very ungodly e.g. Rolling stones merchandise?

Thanks,

God bless,

James.

Why do you believe that it's wrong to own these things? What makes the Rolling Stones "ungodly"? To me, it sounds like you have a lot of needless guilt about these things. By all means, if you do not wish to own things for your own personal reasons, that's fine obviously. But "secular" is not the same thing as "bad".

I wear secular clothes, everyone does. They're called pants, or socks, or shoes. I eat secular food, everyone does, it's called fruits, vegatables, bread, pasta, etc.

Secular isn't a bad word. But there is a strange sub-culture that treats it that way, though it doesn't really make any sense.

When Scripture condemns worldliness it isn't talking about music, clothes, food, or anything like that. It's about about the values of this present fallen age. We are called to a different way, the way of Jesus, which is about taking up our cross and following Him, and loving our neighbors. Worldiness isn't listening to rock music, worldliness is mistreating the poor, the hungry, and the weak in our midst. Worldliness isn't enjoying getting a slice of pizza for lunch, it's being rude, condescending, and holding grudges.

Godliness is not in what music we listen to, what clothes we wear, what movies we watch; it's in cultivating the fruits of the Spirit in our lives through lives of faith and faithful obedience to Jesus.

"For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another." - Galatians 5:13-26

The commandment is "Love your neighbor", in which we deny the ways of the flesh (in all its arrogance, all of its wrath, all of its lusts, all of its hunger for excess, in its laxity toward what is right, etc) and instead walk in the life of the Spirit, who produces in us love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, etc.

The ways of the world are hateful, violent, angry, dominating; but the way of Christ is to lay down one's life for others in love. Which, of ourselves, is impossible because of sin; but by the power of the Spirit who is ours in Jesus Christ our Lord, we are the workmanship of God and He is continuing the work He began, and will complete and make perfect on the Day when Christ returns and God makes all things new.

So the most important question is this: What do you think you will gain in giving away all these things? If you believe that in doing so you will be more holy, or walking toward holiness; then it is essential to let you know that this won't do that.

If you so desire, out of conscience, sell these things to those who would like them (for there is nothing inherently wrong with them), and then use the money for something good and godly, like give the money to a charity, or even to a random homeless person you see.

But if your chief concern is that that God condemns you for owning Rolling Stones records, then you can relax. What God is concerned with is what He has revealed and told you in His word:

"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" - Micah 6:8

-CryptoLutheran

InChristAlone525 · May 26, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
Why do you believe that it's wrong to own these things? What makes the Rolling Stones "ungodly"? To me, it sounds like you have a lot of needless guilt about these things. By all means, if you do not wish to own things for your own personal reasons, that's fine obviously. But "secular" is not the same thing as "bad".

I wear secular clothes, everyone does. They're called pants, or socks, or shoes. I eat secular food, everyone does, it's called fruits, vegatables, bread, pasta, etc.

Secular isn't a bad word. But there is a strange sub-culture that treats it that way, though it doesn't really make any sense.

When Scripture condemns worldliness it isn't talking about music, clothes, food, or anything like that. It's about about the values of this present fallen age. We are called to a different way, the way of Jesus, which is about taking up our cross and following Him, and loving our neighbors. Worldiness isn't listening to rock music, worldliness is mistreating the poor, the hungry, and the weak in our midst. Worldliness isn't enjoying getting a slice of pizza for lunch, it's being rude, condescending, and holding grudges.

Godliness is not in what music we listen to, what clothes we wear, what movies we watch; it's in cultivating the fruits of the Spirit in our lives through lives of faith and faithful obedience to Jesus.

"For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another." - Galatians 5:13-26

The commandment is "Love your neighbor", in which we deny the ways of the flesh (in all its arrogance, all of its wrath, all of its lusts, all of its hunger for excess, in its laxity toward what is right, etc) and instead walk in the life of the Spirit, who produces in us love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, etc.

The ways of the world are hateful, violent, angry, dominating; but the way of Christ is to lay down one's life for others in love. Which, of ourselves, is impossible because of sin; but by the power of the Spirit who is ours in Jesus Christ our Lord, we are the workmanship of God and He is continuing the work He began, and will complete and make perfect on the Day when Christ returns and God makes all things new.

So the most important question is this: What do you think you will gain in giving away all these things? If you believe that in doing so you will be more holy, or walking toward holiness; then it is essential to let you know that this won't do that.

If you so desire, out of conscience, sell these things to those who would like them (for there is nothing inherently wrong with them), and then use the money for something good and godly, like give the money to a charity, or even to a random homeless person you see.

But if your chief concern is that that God condemns you for owning Rolling Stones records, then you can relax. What God is concerned with is what He has revealed and told you in His word:

"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" - Micah 6:8

-CryptoLutheran

Here is a quote from a psychology article: "To be secular means to live one's life outside the church, mosque, synagogue, ashram, or temple walls; to find community elsewhere, to celebrate elsewhere, and to raise one's children in non-religious settings."

Sure clothing and food is not religious in and of themselves, they are just physical objects. But I do think music is deeper than that. It is actively impressing upon our subconscious mind. Words have meaning this is said many times in the Bible. And maybe even artwork and images (think about the impact pornography has). What we are inputting into our mind does transform us.

Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

When I think of worldly I think of lifestyles that are not following God and have very different values than those of God. I would say Rolling Stones is an example of a music band that is not following God. No, their music is not sinful in and of itself, but they are singing about a lifestyle that is far from God. It isn't a sin to hear the music or to view images of the band, but listening to such music can influence your thinking, so I personally wouldn't want to give others their music.

jameshjr · May 26, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
Why do you believe that it's wrong to own these things? What makes the Rolling Stones "ungodly"? To me, it sounds like you have a lot of needless guilt about these things. By all means, if you do not wish to own things for your own personal reasons, that's fine obviously. But "secular" is not the same thing as "bad".

I wear secular clothes, everyone does. They're called pants, or socks, or shoes. I eat secular food, everyone does, it's called fruits, vegatables, bread, pasta, etc.

Secular isn't a bad word. But there is a strange sub-culture that treats it that way, though it doesn't really make any sense.

When Scripture condemns worldliness it isn't talking about music, clothes, food, or anything like that. It's about about the values of this present fallen age. We are called to a different way, the way of Jesus, which is about taking up our cross and following Him, and loving our neighbors. Worldiness isn't listening to rock music, worldliness is mistreating the poor, the hungry, and the weak in our midst. Worldliness isn't enjoying getting a slice of pizza for lunch, it's being rude, condescending, and holding grudges.

Godliness is not in what music we listen to, what clothes we wear, what movies we watch; it's in cultivating the fruits of the Spirit in our lives through lives of faith and faithful obedience to Jesus.

"For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another." - Galatians 5:13-26

The commandment is "Love your neighbor", in which we deny the ways of the flesh (in all its arrogance, all of its wrath, all of its lusts, all of its hunger for excess, in its laxity toward what is right, etc) and instead walk in the life of the Spirit, who produces in us love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, etc.

The ways of the world are hateful, violent, angry, dominating; but the way of Christ is to lay down one's life for others in love. Which, of ourselves, is impossible because of sin; but by the power of the Spirit who is ours in Jesus Christ our Lord, we are the workmanship of God and He is continuing the work He began, and will complete and make perfect on the Day when Christ returns and God makes all things new.

So the most important question is this: What do you think you will gain in giving away all these things? If you believe that in doing so you will be more holy, or walking toward holiness; then it is essential to let you know that this won't do that.

If you so desire, out of conscience, sell these things to those who would like them (for there is nothing inherently wrong with them), and then use the money for something good and godly, like give the money to a charity, or even to a random homeless person you see.

But if your chief concern is that that God condemns you for owning Rolling Stones records, then you can relax. What God is concerned with is what He has revealed and told you in His word:

"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" - Micah 6:8

-CryptoLutheran

Hello there, thank you for the message.

I believe it is wrong to own these things because they are in my opinion opposed to God, and I have been convicted for owning them.

You asked, so I will answer, I think that what makes Rolling stones records and merchandise sinful is the life's that the band members lived. They have lived life's divorced from God and have caused much damage to the social, moral and cultural integrity of the UK as a result of their hedonistic lifestyles. I think a musicians life reflects in the music that they make and therefore listening to their music with themes of drinking, orgies, fighting, drugs, and making fun of God is not right for me to do.

The main reason I used the word secular was for the purpose of alliteration. In hindsight, I should have used a word like, evil to describe these things.

Regarding your point about worldliness being about the values of the world, I am not sure that I would agree; and I ask you if the music made by Godless people is more likely to be shaped by the values of the world or by the values of God? And if the former is the case, what effect should this have on the christian listening to it ?

You say that Godliness is not about what we watch, wear and listen to , but about cultivating the fruits of the spirit. I agree to a point. However, i ask you, is listening to songs about violence cultivating peace; or treating women as objects of selfish pleasure, cultivating a spirit of love? Songs about selfishness cultivating kindness?

I believe that Galatians 5:13 convicts listening to music by the stones as it is using the liberty we have to gratify the flesh, if we are listening to music such as they make for enjoyment.

Then in Galatians 5:16 Paul states that if you walk on the spirit you will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh. Therefore, unless you can argue that the music of the stones is of the spirit, then you have to agree that listening to it is fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. In 5:19. Paul gives examples of behaviour that are of the flesh. I ask you: out of all the things Paul lists are there any that have not features in a stones song? If that is the case then is listening to their music of the flesh or of the spirit? And if it is the former, then, based on 5: 18 do we still have the liberty to listen to music of the flesh?

To answer your question of what I will gain: I think a clear conscience on the matter and I think that that would be enough to justify my getting rid of my stones stuff.

Thank you for your message about this. We definitely disagree over the subject; I think that is okay, as I am not sure that it is an important issue, relatively speaking.

I think 1 Corinthians 10:23 is also applicable to this subject.

Also 2 Corinthians 2:14-15. Where we are told we are a sweet savour to God of Christ and I wonder if that sweet savour is not tainted by listening to music that is opposed to Him

RJ Howard · Jun 6, 2022

jameshjr said:
Hey there, thanks for the message.

This was my initial instinct; however, after reading Petros' message, if i were to donate the funds to my church and encolse a note of testimony with the item; would you still consider this wrong?

I read secular books. The Bible is an important book, but it's not the only book I read. (finished one in Spanish about 3 different characters from different backgrounds) as well as enjoy secular movies and shows.
If it's something that promotes sin (sex, drug usage, etc.) then yes. Get rid of it.

ViaCrucis · Jun 11, 2022

Janelle525 said:
Here is a quote from a psychology article: "To be secular means to live one's life outside the church, mosque, synagogue, ashram, or temple walls; to find community elsewhere, to celebrate elsewhere, and to raise one's children in non-religious settings."

Sure clothing and food is not religious in and of themselves, they are just physical objects. But I do think music is deeper than that. It is actively impressing upon our subconscious mind. Words have meaning this is said many times in the Bible. And maybe even artwork and images (think about the impact pornography has). What we are inputting into our mind does transform us.

Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

When I think of worldly I think of lifestyles that are not following God and have very different values than those of God. I would say Rolling Stones is an example of a music band that is not following God. No, their music is not sinful in and of itself, but they are singing about a lifestyle that is far from God. It isn't a sin to hear the music or to view images of the band, but listening to such music can influence your thinking, so I personally wouldn't want to give others their music.

I am uncomfortable with the idea that art can be evil or good purely on the basis of who made it. A Christian can make terrible art, and a non-Christian can make fantastic art.

When St. Basil the Great instructed his students on the study of the Greek philosophers he told them to be like wise honey bees and select only the most choice nectar. In other words, Basil didn't say the reading of Greek philosophy was wrong, or that there was nothing of value to be gleaned from it; but rather said to take the good and leave the bad.

Art reflects our humanity--the beauty and the ugliness. Art reflects the highest things of the human condition, that we are creatures made in the Divine Image whose creativity and reason and imagination can shape incredible beauty and through that glorify God through the beauty itself But we are fallen, sinful, broken; our passions/desires are disordered and all of out of whack.

Scripture itself bears witness to this. Consider Psalm 137, verse 9 where the Psalmist, a Jew who had witnessed his people killed and taken captive into Babylon, and in a place of anger and revenge admits his most evil thoughts, "Blessed shall he be who takes your infants and dashes them against the rock!" That's in the Psalms, that's Scripture. But it's also honest, it's not right, but it is honest.

Art may be beautiful, or it may be ugly. What we produce is as flawed and wretched as we are, and it's as lovely and wonderful as we are. Art reflects the ugliness of our sin and death, our existential fears, and all the darkness of our existence in this present fallen world; and art also reflects the beauty and goodness of what it means to be human, created in the image and likeness of God.

When Eminem, as an example, raps about some truly atrocious things--it's coming from a place of painful honesty. We don't have to agree with the sentiment, but to recognize the pain, to recognize the honesty, and recognize the need of the human person to be loved; and the need of grace to heal and deliver peace and reconciliation through the Gospel of Jesus Christ--that's a good thing. That's being a Christian.

I'm not saying that means anyone has to listen to Eminem, or Rolling Stones, or Dolly Parton. That'd be silly of me. All I'm suggesting is that we not make knee-jerk reactions, and that we are willing to listen, to see, and to engage. To have eyes to see and ears to hear Christ's voice calling us to love our neighbor.

Again, I'm not trying to tell anyone NOT to throw out anything. Really I'm not telling anyone to do one thing or do another--merely trying to provide a different perspective to approach this whole conversation with.

-CryptoLutheran

seashale76 · Jun 12, 2022

jameshjr said:
Hey all, i hope that you are well.

I am trying to be A) neater and B) a better steward.

So i've been routing around my wardbrobes and cupboards and have come across a lot of stuff, which i bought before Jesus became my Lord and saviour.

They are items like James brown albums, Rolling stones merchandise (lots of), and books written by secular authors (not aggressively against christianity).

I am either giving them away, or thinking of selling the ones that have high value (is this itself wrong?).

My question is this: is it wrong to give away or sell items that are secular, and in some instances, very ungodly e.g. Rolling stones merchandise?

Thanks,

God bless,

James.

If it isn't overtly anti-Christian in nature then I wouldn't worry about it.

BravoM · Jun 18, 2022

IMO, depending on the item I wouldn't sell it b/c you don't want that sinful thing to influence someone else.
You're already out the money for it and following God in life requires sacrifice. If you need money and this is a way maybe sell some but I would destroy the rest if not all.

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