Selective Believing

Jesus was talking to the Jews. To them, they took it as the Law of Moses. If you claim to be a Jew, you shall observe the Mosaic Law (whether the New Covenant exists or not). He shall observe the Law even better than the Pharisees did at Jesus time. However, no one is expected (from Jesus time at least) to be able to observe the Law completely. That's why the need of a New Covenant.

On the other hand, if you are not a Jew Mosaic Law is not for, though you may choose to observe some as generally speaking Law is deemed good by God. Gentiles obey the Law God has written in our hearts. We follow moral code and conscience to do things. To us, Christ's teachings are the most important guidance in the written form. They are thus in a priority for us to follow besides what have been written in hearts which are blurred as our hearts becoming hardened day by day.

plummyy said:

“I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall be lost from Law till all things have been accomplished/ Therefore whoever does away with one of these least commandments, and so teaches men, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever carries them out and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven/ For I say to you that unless your justice exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.”-(Matthew 5:18-20).

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6)

^ How do you interpret those?

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There is no room for interpretation with these statements, only convolution.

plummyy said:

Old Testament/New Testament; Christians who only follow the former/latter?

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We are called to be victorious over sin (Genesis 4:7, Revelation 2:7, Hebrews 10:26-27, Romans 6:1). We are not called to obey any man's interpretation of written law (Mark 7:1-13, Mark 2:23-28), but to obey the law of God as it is written on our heart (Psalms 40:8, Isaiah 51:7, Jeremiah 31:33), and to do the will of God, as He makes His will known to us in our daily lives (Matthew 7:21, Hebrews 4:12, John 1:14, John 5:39). Christians believe that under the new covenant whereby Jesus Christ is the high priest, no more temple sacrifices are necessary, because Jesus has entered the real holy of holies (Hebrews 9:11) and He has done so with one sacrifice that lasts for all of time (Hebrews 9:24, Hebrews 9:11-15). He is our intercessor, not some human on earth who needs to follow purification rituals before appearing before God on our behalf (Hebrews 9:15,24, Hebrews 10:11-13).

plummyy said:

Christians who pray in public places outside of establishments/gatherings for certain groups of people?

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What do you suppose is wrong with that, and why do you suppose they are doing it?

plummyy said:

How do you make a distinction between what will be followed as an explicit rule, and what won't? Is selective morality, beliefs, so common for many Christians, or is it all simply lost in translation with how they interpret their bible?

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Personally, I take heed to my conscience, and I listen to what God tells me. I believe in this world, none of us are capable of being good, because of natural limitations (even our breathing is not good for some unfortunate airborne creatures). Yet there is obviously a distinction to be made between what is unfortunate and what is deliberately bad. I believe that someone who observes what God tells them will know the difference instinctively, even if they choose to rationalise it and apply convoluted translations to the bible in order to justify their disobedience (Matthew 7:23, Luke 12:47-48, Matthew 7:24-27). In this way, no the meaning of the bible is not lost in translation, rather the ones who refuse to acknowledge the truth of the bible have lost their way (Luke 13:24). If someone is selectively choosing their beliefs and morality, it is because they prefer to walk in the darkness, they do not love the truth (John 3:20-21, 1 John 1:6).

plummyy said:

Old Testament/New Testament; Christians who only follow the former/latter?

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The bible says that with out the Law there is no knowledge of sin, the law gives us the knowledge of what is right and wrong in God's eyes. As such we should do our best to obey what the law commands. However as Christians we are not saved by the law. But rather by the new way of Grace, this new way does not replace the need for obedience to the law, rather gives us the peace that we are saved right now, not by our own effort but by God's free gift of forgiveness. I will try to break down how it works:

1) We start out as sinners - we have no knowledge of God in the sense we don't know Him, we may keep some commands and break others

2) When we come to Christ he offers us free forgiveness of our sins past present and future

3) When we are in Christ we receive His gift of the Holy Spirit, who teaches us how to live, via our awakened conscience, He also empowers us to live above our old nature, giving us God's nature, however even with this measure of God's presence we are still likely to sin, and need the continual abiding presence and forgiveness of God.

4) THe Holy Spirit uses the law and the bible to show us how to live, a person who breaks the law habitually is moving away from the Holy Spirits promptings, and may fall away given time. If any one is in disobedience to God's commands they need to repent, for while they have breath they have hope.

plummyy said:

Christians who pray in public places outside of establishments/gatherings for certain groups of people?

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This is not saying Christian should not pray in public, rather that we are not to use it as a way to boast about our selves.

plummyy said:

this wasn't really about my opinion. Those passages from the bible + the commentary/quesyions, were taken from a post made by someone else, not on this website. Concerning those quotes from the bible, ive seen the. Used multiple time as evidence against (that being said subjectivly) Christians. the first being one used to prove that Christians have no religious bases fir discarding the old testament, it fin the case of the second quote, praying in public. I didnt really pose those as reason fir I i thought anything about Christians, just that the quote and question have gone together in non-Christian (selective Christian) areas. I wanted to see if any of it rang a bell, and if there was any truth to it in individual findings.

I also dont really care if Christians have prayer in public places, on sidewalks or whatever. stay hydrated out there folks.

And I really apologize for the catastrophe in writing.. Im on my phone and this website isnt registering my letter as I type them. I'll have to clean it up when I get on a computer. Yack.

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Thank you, take your time, relax! You might find this interesting to consider: http://www.christianforums.com/thre...w-are-we-to-live.7892981/page-2#post-68224951 , which I wrote a few days ago to answer another person's question about old vs new covenant, obedience etc. You are right to recognise, many Christians do not really grasp the difference well, and for many reasons, they believe it is ok to break the law. Keep in mind these verses when considering those people:
Luke 12:47-48
2 Corinthians 4:4

plummyy said:

“I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall be lost from Law till all things have been accomplished/ Therefore whoever does away with one of these least commandments, and so teaches men, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever carries them out and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven/ For I say to you that unless your justice exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.”-(Matthew 5:18-20).

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There is some disagreement about how these verses should be interpreted, but I think you're spot on about the selective believing and that Christian need to take Jesus' warning more seriously. Many interpret "fulfill the law" to mean essentially the same thing as "abolish the law" when just said he came to fulfill the law in contrast with abolishing it.

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6)

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Some Jews were in the habit of praying in street corners so that others may see, so it was more about showing off how pious they were than about talking with God. It's more about having the right attitude when you come before God than about whether or not it is public.

Hawkins said:

Jesus was talking to the Jews. To them, they took it as the Law of Moses. If you claim to be a Jew, you shall observe the Mosaic Law (whether the New Covenant exists or not). He shall observe the Law even better than the Pharisees did at Jesus time. However, no one is expected (from Jesus time at least) to be able to observe the Law completely. That's why the need of a New Covenant.

On the other hand, if you are not a Jew Mosaic Law is not for, though you may choose to observe some as generally speaking Law is deemed good by God. Gentiles obey the Law God has written in our hearts. We follow moral code and conscience to do things. To us, Christ's teachings are the most important guidance in the written form. They are thus in a priority for us to follow besides what have been written in hearts which are blurred as our hearts becoming hardened day by day.

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God's holy, righteous, and good law is according to His character and holy, righteous, and good standard, so even if God had made no covenants with us and had given the law to no one in particular, it would still be good to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct. The fact that our sin nature prevented us from keeping it perfectly does not mean that it is not good to still live according. The problem with the Old Covenant was that the people were disobedient to it, so God's solution was not to lower His holy, righteous, and good standard so that it would be fine is we didn't live accordingly, but rather it was to raise us up and cause us to be able to meet His righteous standard. God did this by sending Jesus to die pay the penalty for our sin and set us free from our sin nature's mastery over us and to send His Spirit to cause us to walk in obedience to Him so that we could meet the righteous requirement of the law (Romans 8:1-7). There never was any distinction between what laws Jewish and Gentile believers should keep because Gentiles are included among God's chosen people (1 Peter 2:9-10) and should act accordingly.

Soyeong said:

The problem with the Old Covenant was that the people were disobedient to it, so God's solution was not to lower His holy, righteous, and good standard so that it would be fine is we didn't live accordingly, but rather it was to raise us up and cause us to be able to meet His righteous standard.

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Succinct description of the changes from old to new, thank you.

Soyeong said:

God did this by sending Jesus to die pay the penalty for our sin

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Would you be happy to bring your understanding for the benefit of my inquiry over here: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-substitutionary-atonement.7890113/ , I will be grateful for your help. Thank you.

plummyy said:

“I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall be lost from Law till all things have been accomplished/ Therefore whoever does away with one of these least commandments, and so teaches men, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever carries them out and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven/ For I say to you that unless your justice exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.”-(Matthew 5:18-20).
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"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6)

^ How do you interpret those?
Old Testament/New Testament; Christians who only follow the former/latter?
Christians who pray in public places outside of establishments/gatherings for certain groups of people?
How do you make a distinction between what will be followed as an explicit rule, and what won't? Is selective morality, beliefs, so common for many Christians, or is it all simply lost in translation with how they interpret their bible?

Click to expand...

Jesus came to fulfill the law and when he had done so perfectly, the Old Testament laws of ceremony and separation were set aside for "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus." (Ro. 8:2) God's universal Moral Law remains in effect; that law which governs our moral behaviour like "you shall not kill," or "you shall not covet," or "you shall not lie with a man as with woman," "you shall not bear false witness," etc. We know this because, unlike the laws of ceremony and separation, God's Moral Law is affirmed and commanded all throughout the New Testament. You'll read verses like:

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 2:22
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 4:31-32
31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.

And so on. You won't find a single verse in the New Testament, however, that commands disciples of Christ to avoid mixed fabrics, or avoid planting two different seeds in their gardens, or avoid eating shellfish. You will, though, find Paul going after those who were pressing Gentile believers to be circumcised (which was a law of separation). His response to the situation is pertinent to your question, I think:

Galatians 2:19
19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

Galatians 5:1-4
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

You see, one cannot be made righteous by observance of the law. One cannot be made holy by observance of the law, either. These things are accomplished through our faith in Christ as our Saviour. Through him we are justified and sanctified. Does this means the believer can live like the devil? No. But his moral conduct no longer arises from a legalistic compulsion to obey God's commands, but from a love of the Lord, and recognition of his new identity in Christ, and submission to the transforming work of God's Spirit. Any disciple of Christ who tells you that you must obey God's law because it is the law fundamentally and seriously misunderstands his spiritual position in Christ.

Selah.