Seems like we need better education.

Paleoconservatarian · Feb 14, 2006

Erock83 said:
Here is my fav. theory. Liberal basis education that is great. I don't think so because education is to teach persons how to think critically if critical thinkers are leaning left that is not basis it just disproves the lack of critical, and rational thought on the right.
One Love

There is no such thing as neutrality. To be sure, even when one honestly isn't trying to bestow his worldview on another, it happens. We all have presuppositions, and conclusions. These appear even (and especially) in educational institutions. Try finding, for example, a university whose social studies and humanities departments don't hold to critical theory. This finds its manifestation in the way professors teach their students, in the books they select for their classes, and so on.

OutCasteChild · Feb 14, 2006

MethodMan said:
Try reading the book before you start calling people names. Might add to your credibility.

I read enough of it in the store to know that it is yet another of his diatribes against academia. He has yet to prove that there is an overall bias in academia, and this book will do nothing to prove his fantasy to all but the most deluded. No one would try to claim that individual professors are biased both liberally and conservatively, but there has not been any overall bias shown.

Erock83 · Feb 14, 2006

Paleoconservatarian said:
There is no such thing as neutrality. To be sure, even when one honestly isn't trying to bestow his worldview on another, it happens. We all have presuppositions, and conclusions. These appear even (and especially) in educational institutions. Try finding, for example, a university whose social studies and humanities departments don't hold to critical theory. This finds its manifestation in the way professors teach their students, in the books they select for their classes, and so on.

I think you make a good point. The only thing I see wrong with is that if someone is taught to think critically about something even in a biased setting they would be able to read something then be able to apply it and come up with an alternative view point. That assumes we teach our children to think and not be spoon feed.
One Love

MachZer0 · Feb 14, 2006

Erock83 said:
http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

Call me crazy but why do smart people vote for the more liberal candidate?
One Love

DEBUNKED

Erock83 · Feb 14, 2006

MachZer0 said:
DEBUNKED

wow you don't learn do you. If you want to talk to me why don't you try making a comment that is intelligent. I don't claim the information to be factual but to have this discourse.
Some of use were going to talk about basis in education v. critical thought.
however any dialogue about critical thought will be completely pointless when you are around...well I'll take some of that back. You do provide a great example of how not to think critically.
One Love

chaim · Feb 14, 2006

While I have no comment on any correlation between IQ and voting, I think there is a good reason for a lot of academics to lean towards the Democratic party.

In the sciences, which make up a large part of academia, there is a feeling that the Bush administration in particular is "anti-science". There have been several recent cases where the administration has taken the "anti-science" standpoint. Intelligent design, climate change, stem cell research and the big-bang are a few examples that come to mind.

If is tough to support someone who continually undermines the philosophy behind and in some cases the product of your life's work.

The same may be true in the humanities - I however am familiar with the sciences.

Erock83 · Feb 14, 2006

I don't want to have to say this but I'm just going to beat you to your next comment.
Yes that was the point of my OP see I was able to see where the debate was heading instead of worrying about where I was. This would be a benefit of thinking critically.
Even know the chart I posted as some basis maybe you should work on source finding. Your cites have as much ethos as Brittany Spears in a micro biology class.
One Love

Lifesaver · Feb 14, 2006

This reminds me of one Hayek's papers: Socialism and the Intellectuals; which gives a good explanation of why those in academia tend to be leftwingers.

Another highly relevant book is Ludwig Von Mises's "The Anti-Capitalist Mentality".

And since education, especially State-provided education, is largely influenced by the views of leftwing academia, one would expect that the longer a kid has been in a school, the more to the left they will lean.

Erock83 · Feb 14, 2006

Lifesaver said:
This reminds me of one Hayek's papers: Socialism and the Intellectuals; which gives a good explanation of why those in academia tend to be leftwingers.

Another highly relevant book is Ludwig Von Mises's "The Anti-Capitalist Mentality".

And since education, especially State-provided education, is largely influenced by the views of leftwing academia, one would expect that the longer a kid has been in a school, the more to the left they will lean.

I still have not yet seen a impact as to why being educated or spending a large amount of time in the academic world is bad.
One Love

Lifesaver · Feb 14, 2006

Erock83 said:
I still have not yet seen a impact as to why being educated or spending a large amount of time in the academic world is bad.
One Love

Being educated is a very good thing. But to equate education with whatever a school tells their students is to be naive.
Furthermore, to believe in all the latest fads of the academic world is to put one's education under serious risk.

chaim · Feb 14, 2006

Lifesaver said:
Being educated is a very good thing. But to equate education with whatever a school tells their students is to be naive.
Furthermore, to believe in all the latest fads of the academic world is to put one's education under serious risk.

What exactly do you mean by the latest "fads" of the academic world?

Lifesaver · Feb 14, 2006

There are too many to mention them all:
socialism, existentialism, nihilism, relativism, deconstructionism.

There also those which have no particular name, but which are present everywhere, such as the tendency of today's academia to try to solve problems through statistics rather than actual theory.

Willa · Feb 14, 2006

OutCasteChild said:
You're right that link has been disproven (Last summer if IIRC), but there still is a correlation between level of education and political ideaology. The higher a persons education level the more likely that person will be liberal. None of the statistics that I have seen have come to any definite conclusion for this.

Actually, this is not true. Click the following link and scroll down to "Vote by Education":

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

The only catergoies Kerry had more votes are "No High School" (small difference) and "Postgrad Study" (large difference). In all other categories ("HS Graduate", "Some College", and "College Graduate"), Bush carried quite substantial margins. I think the exit polls of the 2000 election showed similar results.

So, first, the hypothesis that the level of education is proportional to political liberalism is not correct. If you ignore the "No High School" category (it's 49% vs. 50%), the only group that is decidedly library is people with graduate degrees.

There are no official studies on the reason, but I think it is because a substiantial number of people with graduate degrees choose carreers in the academia, which is overwhelmingly liberal.

Grizzly · Feb 14, 2006

LogicChristian said:
Yup, IQ doesn't measure much more than how good you are at taking IQ tests.

IQ actually correlates fairly strongly with a number of things, such as academic sucess, number of years of education, and economic and social status.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ#Economic_development_and_IQ

My personal theory about why education (and IQ) correlate with the tendency to vote liberal is this. Most people with high IQ's go to college. College is a very liberalizing force. But not from the classrooms (who listens to professors?) but from the shear fact that some many people from so many cultures are thrown together. When this happens, cherished beliefs about the superiority of your own personal worldview give way to ideas of tolerance and mutual respect. We also realize that we live very fortunate lives and we wish others with lesser means could also do so.

Plus, when you're young, you're an idealist. You see yourself as potentially impacting the world with your good work and ideas. Idealism and tolerance are ideas that seem to find a home in progressive politics.

Grizzly · Feb 14, 2006

Willa said:
There are no official studies on the reason, but I think it is because a substiantial number of people with graduate degrees choose carreers in the academia, which is overwhelmingly liberal.

But the number of people in academia is pitifully small compared to the number of people who identify themselves as progressive/liberal.

Norseman · Feb 14, 2006

DieHappy said:
That's ridiculous. How could a state have an average IQ of 85?

Bad education? Lots of immigrants who don't understand the IQ test due to language difficulties? Variations in the local dialect which cause language difficulties with the particular language variations of the test? Other possibilities might include brain drain (the area is not desireable by smart people for one reason or another, who, being smart, leave it, and other smart people do not replace them. Economy and deficiencies in information technology, as I mention later being causes of ignorance and thus potential IQ impediments by themselves, can also be undesireable factors which would cause brain drain), poor economy (college level education isn't free, so if the populace is poor, they will be less educated on average because it will be harder to afford such education.), and deficiencies in information technology (lack of internet, few libraries, and other things can reduce access to information, thereby making the population more ignorant).

chaim · Feb 14, 2006

I think the results from CNN pretty much speak for themselves. The smartest, most educated (with post-graduate education) vote democtatic.

Borealis · Feb 14, 2006

OutCasteChild said:
You're right that link has been disproven (Last summer if IIRC), but there still is a correlation between level of education and political ideaology. The higher a persons education level the more likely that person will be liberal. None of the statistics that I have seen have come to any definite conclusion for this.

The only reason that a higher education level means a more liberal voter is this: the longer you spend at university, the more exposure to liberal indoctrination you're forced to go through. Conservatives don't get treated the same as liberals at college. It got to the point where several states are proposing legislation REQUIRING a more balanced curriculum since the universities can't seem to grasp that their entire reason for existence is to PROVIDE a mix of different views, whether they be ethnic, religious, OR POLITICAL.

And before you go claiming that I don't know what I'm talking about, ask yourself this: if 90% of college professors who acknowledge their political leanings are liberal, what sort of students will they be turning out?

Indoctrination is not education. Until people figure that out, the universities will keep doing exactly what they're doing: telling people what to think instead of teaching them HOW to think.

chaim · Feb 14, 2006

Borealis said:
The only reason that a higher education level means a more liberal voter is this: the longer you spend at university, the more exposure to liberal indoctrination you're forced to go through. Conservatives don't get treated the same as liberals at college. It got to the point where several states are proposing legislation REQUIRING a more balanced curriculum since the universities can't seem to grasp that their entire reason for existence is to PROVIDE a mix of different views, whether they be ethnic, religious, OR POLITICAL.

And before you go claiming that I don't know what I'm talking about, ask yourself this: if 90% of college professors who acknowledge their political leanings are liberal, what sort of students will they be turning out?

Indoctrination is not education. Until people figure that out, the universities will keep doing exactly what they're doing: telling people what to think instead of teaching them HOW to think.

I am in academia and I would vote democratic. It is for none of the reasons you have presented. I, and most of my colleagues could never vote for a president that advocates intelligent design or bans stem cell research, or censors climate science. What his party stands for is not compatible with the advancement of knowledge.

Just out of curiosity, if you think that liberal education produce liberal professors, where did it start. Why is it that most academics, through out the whole world are liberal? How did universities everywhere become liberal?

SallyNow · Feb 15, 2006

chaim said:
While I have no comment on any correlation between IQ and voting, I think there is a good reason for a lot of academics to lean towards the Democratic party.

In the sciences, which make up a large part of academia, there is a feeling that the Bush administration in particular is "anti-science". There have been several recent cases where the administration has taken the "anti-science" standpoint. Intelligent design, climate change, stem cell research and the big-bang are a few examples that come to mind.

If is tough to support someone who continually undermines the philosophy behind and in some cases the product of your life's work.

The same may be true in the humanities - I however am familiar with the sciences.

I think you may have come as close as anyone to realizing the real reason many people who are educated vote moderate or left.

The reason has nothing, absolutly nothing, to do with indoctoration. Anyone who sits through course after course, learns that they must think for themselves. Even in many first-year courses, and more more in the later years, students learn they can't toe the line: it won't get them very far. They must be able to analyse data, to analyse people, to analyse what they are working with and come with working theories.

Take business degrees: the main goal is making money. This often favours a more conservative outlook on things.
Then, take sociology or psychology: their main goals are to understand society and the people in them, and under what circumstances they do best, worst, and in the middle. When looking right at people, most are bound to take a more humanity-centred, as opposed to business-centred, mindset.

Also, frankly, those who are more educated may also be more likely to realize that the world couldn't operate on just rightish views, or just leftist views, but it is the combination of views that makes things great.

Seems like we need better education.

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