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Seeking understanding....

Philpy1976

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There is one part of the bible that scares me more than any other part. I will post it at the end of this, but I want to explain why is scares me first.

Most people would say that a person who makes Jesus Christ their Lord is a 'christian' right?

If that 'christian' is prophesying in His name and casting out demons (healing the afflicted) then we would be full of joy at the great works that He is doing through them, wouldn't we?

Why then, are we told in no uncertain terms that people exactly like that are going to be turned away?
What is it that they didn't get right?

I ask this because if there are people out there right now that call Jesus their Lord and even display enough faith to do those works, yet are not destined for eternal life with God, how can we make sure we are not also headed for the same sorry end?

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ ~ Matthew 7:21-23
 

football5680

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Most people would say that a person who makes Jesus Christ their Lord is a 'christian' right?

If that 'christian' is prophesying in His name and casting out demons (healing the afflicted) then we would be full of joy at the great works that He is doing through them, wouldn't we?

Why then, are we told in no uncertain terms that people exactly like that are going to be turned away?
What is it that they didn't get right?

I ask this because if there are people out there right now that call Jesus their Lord and even display enough faith to do those works, yet are not destined for eternal life with God, how can we make sure we are not also headed for the same sorry end?
Jesus is saying that he will deny people who simply say that they love and believe in Jesus but do not live by his message.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. (John 14:15)

Doing miracles is not a sign that you are saved because God can empower anybody to do what he wants.

"Teacher," said John, "we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. (Mark 9:38-40)

These people who were invoking the name of Jesus didn't really know him but they invoked his name because they probably heard that he was a prophet who was doing many miracles. They can believe that Jesus is Lord but if they do not follow his message then he will say that he doesn't know them. People who already believe in Jesus do not need signs because we already believe.

how can we make sure we are not also headed for the same sorry end?
We can't know for sure because we do not know our future. We must make an effort on our part to follow the teachings of Jesus and ask for forgiveness when we do sin. We can't know for sure but we can be confident if we make an active and continual effort to do good.

I'm confident that I will most likely go to heaven but I'm not going to say without a doubt I will go to heaven because I would be limiting God's power over me.
 
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tturt

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agree with football5680. The two main commandments are - we're to love Yahweh above all else and everyone else and love others as ourselves (this includes loving ourselves in a healthy way).

Also, there are Scriptures to support prophesying, driving out demons and performing miracles but they're not
in the fruit lineup (Gal. 5:22-23) as talked about in Matt 7. Matt 7 also talks about how we'll be judged as we judge others, Yahweh's generosity, hypocrites, etc. It gets down to matters of our thoughts and intents of our hearts.
 
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Max Shade

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It gets down to matters of our thoughts and intents of our hearts.

Yup, the previous two posts have the nail on the head.

It can't be a knowledge thing, can't be merely intellectual acquaintance with Jesus. It has to be relational, felt, lived.
 
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Philpy1976

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OK, thanks guys, I feel a bit better about it now.

I have seen various interpretations of what this is meant to warn against and I think some of the differences come from the way it is translated.

"Evildoers" which is used in the NIV has been rendered as:

"workers of iniquity" in the ESV
"you who practice lawlessness" in the NASB

I have seen this used to explain that people who fail to observe the law will perish (despite the blood of Christ).

I have also seen it explained in such a way that suggests doing such works or wonders from the motive of earning salvation is what they were doing wrong (trying to earn salvation, thus not appreciating the payment Christ made.

polar opposite views!

Where (online) can i find the original words used for this verse?
 
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Max Shade

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Where (online) can i find the original words used for this verse?

Here:
21 ου πας ο λεγων μοι κυριε κυριε εισελευσεται εις την βασιλειαν των ουρανων αλλ ο ποιων το θελημα του πατρος μου του εν τοις ουρανοις
22 πολλοι ερουσιν μοι εν εκεινη τη ημερα κυριε κυριε ου τω σω ονοματι επροφητευσαμεν και τω σω ονοματι δαιμονια εξεβαλομεν και τω σω ονοματι δυναμεις πολλας εποιησαμεν
23 και τοτε ομολογησω αυτοις οτι ουδεποτε εγνων υμας αποχωρειτε απ εμου οι εργαζομενοι την ανομιαν

ανομιαν = anomia

Strong's Concordance
anomia: lawlessness​
Original Word: ἀνομία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anomia
Phonetic Spelling: (an-om-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity
Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin.
 
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Max Shade

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In Matthew 22,
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, http://www.esvbible.org/Lk10.27;De6.5/“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And http://www.esvbible.org/1J4.21/a second is like it: http://www.esvbible.org/Lv19.18;Mt19.19/You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 http://www.esvbible.org/Rm13.8;Rm13.10/On these two commandments depend http://www.esvbible.org/Mt7.12;Ga5.14/all the Law and the Prophets.”

It seems the law is merely a guide for the more important aspect.
 
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com7fy8

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Most people would say that a person who makes Jesus Christ their Lord is a 'christian' right?

If that 'christian' is prophesying in His name and casting out demons (healing the afflicted) then we would be full of joy at the great works that He is doing through them, wouldn't we?
There were religious people who were angry against Jesus because He did His works . . . including healing on the Sabbath and raising Lazarus from the dead.

So, no, Philpy, not all people will rejoice about someone prophesying and healing.

But there are people who can fake these things. You need to be able to tell the difference. For only one example, someone getting out of a wheelchair is not necessarily being healed; they use wheelchairs to support weak and unstable people, but these people can walk.

Why then, are we told in no uncertain terms that people exactly like that are going to be turned away?
What is it that they didn't get right?
Again, I say, it depends on who you are talking about. Real ones of Jesus will not get turned away. But they will be refused by evil people, because Jesus guarantees that those truly representing Him will get rejected . . . by evil people, not by Him!

However, we need not only outward wonders. Blessed is the one who believes without seeing and without requiring signs and wonders. So, when ones mistakenly depend on signs and prophesying in order to get accepted, these in error will not be cause for joy. Plus, there are fakers who are after money and control.

Jesus does say we will be known by our love; He does not say we will be known for signs and wonders and prophesying . . . though He does guaranteed we will do these things :)

I ask this because if there are people out there right now that call Jesus their Lord and even display enough faith to do those works, yet are not destined for eternal life with God, how can we make sure we are not also headed for the same sorry end?
Calling Jesus something is not necessarily the same as obeying Him. If they are only calling Him this, they need to trust in Christ. Faith is not only for works, but we need "faith working through love," as our Apostle Paul does say in Galatians 5:6. So, we each need to make sure we are living in faith which has us loving in the way the Bible says, about being gentle and humble and forgiving, not only performing outward prophecies and miracles.

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

I offer that a Biblical ministry will bring more attention to this way of loving, than to outward show of miracles and prophesying.

So, say-so is not enough.

Philpy, you quoted scripture >

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ ~ Matthew 7:21-23
You might consider that those rejected people are the ones who their own selves say they did all the wonders and prophesying. Jesus Himself is not quoted to say they were telling the truth. Children of Satan are liars! So, I would not assume that what they say is true. Where the Bible quotes what someone says, you "might" be wise not assume that what they say is true. It is true that they said it or will say it, but it is not necessarily so, what they say :)

Jesus does say He never knew them; so this can mean He never knew them by giving them power to do anything in His name. After all, Jesus clearly says, "without Me you can do nothing." (in John 15:5) And, along with this, you are not required to pass on what you have been told by someone, if you do not know what they said is true.

There is a lot of attention being called to signs and wonders and prophecy, instead of first our attention being to who Jesus is and how the Bible says to love, and how with Jesus "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:29) < this is a wonder we need to talk and hear about more, how we have rest for our souls because of obeying Jesus!! :) So, be careful where your main amount of attention is going, please.

And those ones on judgment who claim they did signs and wonders and prophesying maybe were in the crowd where a real disciple did things for Jesus, and they might be trying to get credit, only by being there. You can't just piggy-back on someone else's track record, by being a spectator at the race!! :)

But by trusting in Jesus, we do leave behind our own background, and now in the kingdom of God we have the death and burial and resurrection of Jesus as our new record :) And He has the works for us ourselves to do with Him (Ephesians 2:10), not just spectating, but in personal relationship ministering with example > "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3) You can't follow someone's example, unless you personally get to know the person and his or her example; so this is not talking about just watching TV people and big-name speakers you don't even know. But Jesus has us living in real life with people, ministering His own love which is and does so more than any wonders and speaking can.

So, my advice is make sure your attention is mainly to how Jesus shares with you and has you doing works of loving; a work of love is not measured by how big and great it looks to others, but the effect of love of God is so great, in whatsoever He has us doing!!!

God bless you :) Bill
 
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timf

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display enough faith to do those works

Faith in what? It is easy to get caught up in works such that our focus is really on ourselves. There is a free book called "The Practice of the Presence of God" by Brother Lawrence. It does not have much sound doctrine in it, but it does show a heart with simple faith.

Christianity was never meant to be difficult. It was meant to be found by children and the infirm. "Jesus loves me this I know".
 
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StormHawk

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Ok, which brings me back to what I had always thought (before this doubt came a knockin'),
LOVE, a personal relationship with Him is the key to all of it.

Thanks Max

Jesus said "if you love me, keep my commandments".

Many people don't realise what these are so they end up slipping back into the Old Covenant, thinking they need to observe the Sabbath ans certain "special days", tithe, abstain from certain foods etc.

Do you know what Jesus' commandments are?
 
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Emmy

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Dear Philpy1976. Those people which Jesus condemns for using His Name, and thus have rewards one way or another, keep the glory for themselves.
We are encouraged to do and help our neighbour, but we do it out of Love for God: and God will always know, because God can see our hearts and thoughts. All Glory belongs to God and Jesus our Saviour. We often have gifts given to us, but we always use them for God`s Glory. I say this with love.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Philpy1976

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Jesus said "if you love me, keep my commandments".

Many people don't realise what these are so they end up slipping back into the Old Covenant, thinking they need to observe the Sabbath ans certain "special days", tithe, abstain from certain foods etc.

Do you know what Jesus' commandments are?

This site lists 38 (taken from the 4 gospels)

Most people summarize them into the greatest two of the old;

Love God.
Love your neighbour.

=========================================

I spent a while looking at different sites about this topic and was also reminded that Matt 7:21 talks about doing the will of the Father, which John 6:40 tells us is...

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)
 
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If you don't know Jesus on a spritual level, I believe things like prophesy/drive out demons/perform many miracles was not done properly anyway. God said something like: if you do good things withouth my name; those things are dirty rags to me.
To be frank, if you do miracles withouth god; you're using demons.

I believe some of use get supernatural visions of god, that he promises you that you go to heaven. I've had one, and it's that one thing I cling on deeply in time of crisis.

I'll pray for you that Jesus do something likewise to you.

And when I think about it, jesus promised to us things like: he show us heaven, he show your name in heaven etc. Those things also kinda say you're going to be fine.
If you didn't experience those things, it's ok. I believe he won't show them all, but atleast a big part of his promises. Just keep praying to the lord, and make sure your life/soul is encircled as much as possible to Jesus Christ.

edit trust me im not a good christian, I sin allot. Just make sure you keep the connectivity with Jesus all the time, and love him. Secondly I think it's important to envision your self in the future as a person, where god says to: this is my child. It'll become your ideal you'll strive to everyday.
I feel guilty about all the graces god and jesus gave me.
 
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theophilus40

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I ask this because if there are people out there right now that call Jesus their Lord and even display enough faith to do those works, yet are not destined for eternal life with God, how can we make sure we are not also headed for the same sorry end?

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ ~ Matthew 7:21-23
The error these people made was that they believed they were entitled to a place in the kingdom because of their works. They didn't realize that we can only enter the kingdom because of the work Jesus did when he died and rose from the dead.

Anyone who is truly saved will do good works. A person who isn't saved my do the same kind of work because he believes that is the way to obtain salvation. If you are doing great things for God and want to know whether you will be accepted just ask yourself this question: "Am I doing these works because I have been saved by God's grace or am I doing them so I can earn my salvation?'
 
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Inkachu

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There is one part of the bible that scares me more than any other part. I will post it at the end of this, but I want to explain why is scares me first.

Most people would say that a person who makes Jesus Christ their Lord is a 'christian' right?

If that 'christian' is prophesying in His name and casting out demons (healing the afflicted) then we would be full of joy at the great works that He is doing through them, wouldn't we?

Why then, are we told in no uncertain terms that people exactly like that are going to be turned away?
What is it that they didn't get right?

I ask this because if there are people out there right now that call Jesus their Lord and even display enough faith to do those works, yet are not destined for eternal life with God, how can we make sure we are not also headed for the same sorry end?

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ ~ Matthew 7:21-23

The answer is right there in the verse. "Only the one who does the will of my Father". Those are the ones who will be in Heaven. The people who it mentions casting out demons and performing miracles in Jesus' name refers (IMHO) to heretics who are actually performing these things under false pretenses or even demonic influence. Remember, Satan masquerades as an angel of light! He can appear very appealing, but it's only when you test it against God's will and God's word that you can discern if it's from Him or not. So these people, who are saying "We went around doing miracles in your name and calling you our Lord!" KNOW that they aren't God's children. This will be their last-minute, desperate excuse for their actions. These will not be genuine Christians who somehow "got it wrong" and had no clue they weren't really saved.

So examine your heart, be right with God, and then put your mind at ease :)
 
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boldlion

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There is one part of the bible that scares me more than any other part. I will post it at the end of this, but I want to explain why is scares me first.

Most people would say that a person who makes Jesus Christ their Lord is a 'christian' right?

If that 'christian' is prophesying in His name and casting out demons (healing the afflicted) then we would be full of joy at the great works that He is doing through them, wouldn't we?

Why then, are we told in no uncertain terms that people exactly like that are going to be turned away?
What is it that they didn't get right?

I ask this because if there are people out there right now that call Jesus their Lord and even display enough faith to do those works, yet are not destined for eternal life with God, how can we make sure we are not also headed for the same sorry end?

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ ~ Matthew 7:21-23

What does Strong's Concordance say about the definition of "evildoers" (iniquity, KJV) ?
 
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DiscipleHeLovesToo

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There is one part of the bible that scares me more than any other part. I will post it at the end of this, but I want to explain why is scares me first.

Most people would say that a person who makes Jesus Christ their Lord is a 'christian' right?

If that 'christian' is prophesying in His name and casting out demons (healing the afflicted) then we would be full of joy at the great works that He is doing through them, wouldn't we?

Why then, are we told in no uncertain terms that people exactly like that are going to be turned away?
What is it that they didn't get right?

I ask this because if there are people out there right now that call Jesus their Lord and even display enough faith to do those works, yet are not destined for eternal life with God, how can we make sure we are not also headed for the same sorry end?

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ ~ Matthew 7:21-23

the reason Jesus gives for turning people away is that He never knew them; which is to say He didn't have a relationship with them. Jesus said the He did only those things He saw His Father do - He was led by God in each situation. the commandments that we are to keep is not those listed in the printed Bible, but God's situational leading that is confirmed by the Bible as revealed by God to each person through a right relationship with Him - one that is based exclusively on faith in His grace and independent of one's performance, good or bad.

if you're trying to keep all the written commandments according to your own understanding, you are no led by God, but are led by your own understanding. seek to be led by God in each situation, and use the Bible to confirm that leading; as no one in a flesh body can apply the written commandments in the Bible accurately; we have to have His leading in each situation, or we are walking by our sight, and not by His.
 
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