Secure Salvation Vs. Losing Your Salvation

GH,

Initial salvation is not being taken away, but rewards in the millennial kingdom are. Salvation has 3 aspects: (1) initial salvation and regeneration of the person, (2) rewards in the millennial kingdom and regeneration of the world, and (3) eternity future in the new city and the new earth in which rewards are done away with.

GH,

Initial salvation is not being taken away, but rewards in the millennial kingdom are. Salvation has 3 aspects: (1) initial salvation and regeneration of the person, (2) rewards in the millennial kingdom and regeneration of the world, and (3) eternity future in the new city and the new earth in which rewards are done away with.

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Thanks, Scriptures please?

(1) Matt. 3.16,18; Titus 3.5

(2) Rev. 20.4, chapters 2 and 3; Matt. 19.28

(3) Rev. 21-22.

Sorry runs but could u put them up for me and all to see?

No.

TITUS 3:5 does not prove what you are saying, so i dont need to read the rest, it is by Grace and works that we are saved

Titus3.5 does so speak of personal regeneration. Don't be lazy.

I must admit that I have not thought about this in much detail, but my two pennies worth (we don't have cents) is that I have a problem with the phrase "losing salvation", just as I have a problem with the phrase "losing healing". Salvation and healing are a gift from God. In the former, it is God who has given his Son, the means for salvation; it is God the Spirit who moves in our hearts to convict us of our sin and lead us to God the Father. It is God who gives us faith and even makes us willing to be willing, if we want that. It is God who has adopted us into his family.none of this is our initiative or our doing. As we have done nothing to gain salvation, I do not see how we can lose it. In the case of healing, it is also a gift. Sometimes God heals physically and immediately in response to prayer, and sometimes the answer may be "not yet". If we are healed after prayer it is not that we have done anything to deserve it, and if the symptoms return, I do not believe it is a matter of having lost the healing.

We still have free will as Christians, so I suppose we could choose to turn away from God, harden our hearts and make up our minds not to listen to him any more - a tragedy if that were to happen. Whether or not such a person would be saved because of something they once believed, I'm not sure, I doubt it though. Cult members who become Christians are not judged on what they once believed, but on whom they were trusting at death. But anyway, judgement is down to God. He knows everything and is just, I do not and am not.

Yes, scripture does warn against hardening of the heart due to the deceitfulness of sin but the exception I have is with your assumption that not heeding correction of the Spirit & not sufficiently departing from sin somehow constitutes rejecting the gift of righteousness, rejecting Christ Himself. In context the issue of departing from God is by not trusting God;
and the hardness of the heart through the deceitfulness of sin also addresses casting off of our confidence which is of faith.

It is my assertion that the heart of your debate is really about turning back to dead works and forsaking obedience to the truth of the Gospel. It is possible I may have misunderstood what you meant but I really don’t believe I have misunderstood your position. But I do think my previous replies haven't been expressed as well as they could be.

Heb.3: 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end; ... 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

As I see it, whether you intended to do so or not, what you actually are proposing is a conditional form of salvation, contingent upon works of obedience. I say this because I perceive that the heart of your position is the issue of personal but carnal obedience. I believe the fundamental issue is actually about obedience in the flesh versus salvation according to the Spirit which directly corresponds to that righteousness AND salvation which is the gift of God by grace through faith.


Salvation is not of the flesh and cannot be worked, completed or kept by our obedience in the flesh. Salvation is of God by His Spirit through Christ. It is written, there is no Savior but God. We are not co-saviors with God, our salvation is by grace through faith. That is the prize and the end of our faith.

Working out our own salvation with fear and trembling speaks to me of our individual struggle (by faith) against sin in the flesh which not coincidentally, brings to nought all of our puny efforts to keep our own selves (instead of trusting in Him alone). The harder we try to produce righteousness or work holiness, the more we fail. (James 2:10) Jesus Christ is our Holiness and He alone is our Righteousness. He alone saves us and He alone is able to keep us by and in Himself. And it is GOD which worketh in us "both to will and to do of His good pleasure".(Phil.2:13)

According to scripture, even after we are saved, sin (Heb.12:1) easily besets us and even works "its will" in our flesh (cf. Rom.7) so that we cannot do that which we would. To me that includes even the SIN you describe of not heeding the Holy Spirit and/or turning a deaf ear to His correction.

Beyond accepting Jesus Christ and trusting Him to save us, since we all have to deal with sin in the flesh until Jesus returns, exactly what degree of heeding the Holy Spirit do you propose constitutes keeping our salvation versus losing it? To me that's the same as gambling my soul on some inexact and elusive working toward sinlessness. Our carnal obedience to the Spirit does not keep our salvation, yet without obedience to the correction of the Spirit you suggest one could lose their salvation. So where is JESUS in all that?

Just what degree of obedience to the Spirit do you suggest is ultimately necessary in order to meet the criteria which you believe was communicated to you? [To me] the proposed necessity of being one who is not hardening their heart is just another way of saying that our salvation is contingent upon degrees of our own carnal work of obedience instead of the obedience of Christ!

The aforementioned "nearly impossible feat" of losing your salvation promotes salvation by your own works with some kind of guess-timated level of corporal obedience instead of by Jesus Christ alone. (I place no such confidence in the flesh.) You have unwittingly imposed a carnal contingency upon salvation by grace through faith. Salvation is not contingent upon any work we can do. You seem to believe your carnal obedience will ultimately determine whether you keep your salvation or not. To that I must refer to what Paul counseled the Galatians: Are we to try to complete in the flesh that which was begun in and by the Spirit?

What other measure of obedience to the Spirit can one possibly hope to add that can supercede (much less 'undo') the obedience of Christ which has already been attributed to us by grace through faith? Upon whose obedience are we to place our trust, upon His or upon our own?

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

By the criteria you seem to be proposing, it is YOUR OWN works that will ultimately determine whether you will or will be found worthy of eternal life. If it is our works, then it is not grace. But if it is by grace, by His merit, by His virtue and His works, then it is not our own. Whether you call your works "not hardening your heart" or maintaining righteousness or degrees of holiness, or a sufficient measure of obedience, [to me] it is all the same. To me it undermines the gospel of grace and reverts/ turns one to another gospel: a gospel of dead works by requiring us to carry out and/or complete in the flesh that which is begun in and by the Spirit. (see Galatians)

I do not believe that salvation is about our merit nor is it based upon our performance. I do not believe salvation is something that can be accomplished or kept by us certainly not by striving to achieve some ambiguous and ever elusive degree of corporal obedience, as some suggest we must. Instead, I believe our salvation is in, of and by the obedience of Jesus Christ and His sinless life which through His cross is attributed in its entirety to our account by grace through faith alone.

In His wisdom, (I believe) God did not give us a clean slate so that we could mess it up all over again. Instead He has given us salvation IN CHRIST JESUS, a living hope, that does not fade or perish–even as it is written in 1Peter 1:3-5

1Peter1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. [emphasis added]

As I see it there are no if's and's or but's about our salvation both because of His faithfulness (to keep us) and because of His perfect atonement made in full for our trespasses /our sins/ and all our unrighteousness. We are even sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit of promise... Eph.1:11-14 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

In the course of this debate, when all is said and done, I have to look at the fruit of a thing. Regarding the assurance of our salvation which is secure in Christ, I firmly believe that the fruit of all other (contrary) doctrines is this: although at the first other doctrines may seem very scriptural and even seem profitable to us in that they seem lead us to the (but are a show of) producing of righteousness. However, I believe they all eventually lead a person into an incomprehensible quagmire of religious formalism trapped in the abysmal maze of dead works. I believe these other doctrines gender pride and will eventually bring the individual into condemnation, fear and doubt. Worse yet, I personally believe Paul’s admonitions against returning to dead works which make the cross of Christ of none effect. I believe this is what constitutes a turning aside from the faith once delivered to the saints. For this reason we are admonished to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith of Christ. (See 2Cor.13:5)

Another important point that is often over looked is how scripture itself speaks concerning the flesh and the workings thereof —and more specifically, how this relates to the gospel itself. Many in Christendom act like it is our flesh that must be saved and reworked, as if by revamping our flesh (revamping and/or behavior modifying a dead Adam) the old man can then somehow be made acceptable to God, when nothing could be further from the truth!

The flesh is enmity against the Spirit. The flesh cannot be conformed to the things of the Spirit and has instead (by grace through faith) been slain through the cross of Christ. For the Christian believer, dead Adam is the old man, which is of the earth, which has been slain in Christ. The new man, the spiritual man is THE LORD FROM HEAVEN (1Cor.15:47) by whom and in whom we must be hid, (Col.2:3-4) as members of His body (Eph.5:30) having received the Spirit of adoption. (Rom. 8:15)

That which is of the flesh is flesh and that which is of the Spirit is spirit. Sin is a work of the flesh and we know that the flesh cannot attain to the things of God nor can it inherit the kingdom of God.

In 1John2:2 There is a reason why the Apostle John said "Beloved, it doth not yet appear what we shall be..." Until the return of Jesus Christ, we are counted in Him as accepted in the Beloved (Eph.1:6) in spite of the fact that it does not yet appear what we shall be. Thankfully Paul affirmed in Rom. 7:23,24 that it is THE LORD who will deliver us from our wretched condition. And again in Philip. 3:20,21, Paul reaffirms that it is the Lord Himself who will change our vile body: "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto Himself." [This too is His promise which is also by faith!]

I agree that we must hold our confidence steadfast unto the end (Heb.3:14) which confidence is by grace through the faith of Christ, and we must not cast away our confidence.(Heb. 10:33). And I believe that (1John 5:14,15) "...this is the confidence we have in Him, that, if we ask any thing according to His will, He heareth us: and if we know that He hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions we desired of Him."

I firmly believe our confidence in Him pertains also to His answer when we pray the sinners prayer. The sinners prayer constitutes not only our confession of faith in Him (Rom. 10:9.10) but it is also a prayer of petition to Him for salvation through His Son, which IS definitely a prayer that is according to His will. Therefore, knowing I have asked according to His will, I know that He heard me when I prayed it. And because I know that He heard me, I know also that I have the petition I desired of Him, even the gift of eternal life: our salvation as the gift of grace which is wrought for us by God through and in His Son..

I am fully persuaded that (Rom.4:21) what He has promised, He is able to perform –and this is that salvation which is by faith, even like as the faith of Abraham who believed God and it was imputed to Him for righteousness.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (Rom. 4:8) From what the Lord has taught me, I believe this is the blessing which is to all those who receive Him and lay hold upon the promises by faith.

"...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day." (2Tim.1:12) and so I "hold fast the form of sound words" (2Tim.1:13) which I have heard of Him.

I rejoice therefore in the confidence we have in Him: Phil. 3:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that He which has begun a good work in you will continue to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." And I praise Him that in His wisdom He has purposed that our salvation is not in any way through confidence in the flesh (Phil.3:3) not earned or kept by our own spiritual competence but instead only in, of and by Him who "works all things in Himself, after the good pleasure of His will," Eph.1:5 [through Jesus Christ.] So I will commit my way unto Him...knowing He is Faithful and He will do it. Commit thy way unto the Lord, trust also in Him and He shall bring it to pass. Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it. (1Thess.5:24)

In Christ,

Noteye

Bravo noteye...that was the best presentation I've ever read regarding the security of our salvation.

A question though...in Rev.3:5, Jesus says,

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Why would He even say the term 'blot out his name out of the book of life' if it wasn't a possibility? I ask this because I know someone who based their belief against osas on this verse. Your thoughts?

Hisgirl said:

Bravo noteye...that was the best presentation I've ever read regarding the security of our salvation.

A question though...in Rev.3:5, Jesus says,

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Why would He even say the term 'blot out his name out of the book of life' if it wasn't a possibility? I ask this because I know someone who based their belief against osas on this verse. Your thoughts?

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Who is he that overcometh and how? And why would He say that He would blot anyone’s name out of the book of life?

When we have questions about salvation, the answers to our questions concerning the faith are, of course, in scripture itself. In response to your question, I would call your attention to several verses in which two things are repeatedly mentioned concerning the faith (1) overcoming by faith and (2) continuing in the faith.

Rev.3:3 "Remember therefore, how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent... 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

1 John 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

Why or for what cause would He blot someone’s name out of the book of Life? I would have to say it would be for two reasons which [to me] are actually one and the same in His sight: those who deny Him and those who turn back from the faith once delivered to the saints. I believe this is why Paul said what he did to the Galatians about turning back from salvation by grace through faith to dead works, trying to complete in the flesh that which was begun by the Spirit: Galatians 1:6 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:"

1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;..."

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:"

Mt. 10:32 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

2 John 1: 9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."


I believe Jesus Christ Himself is our salvation, meaning salvation is not of man but of God through, in, of, and by the Lord Jesus Christ, received by grace through faith. I believe that His virtue and righteousness are attributed to us by faith. If we turn from the faith of Christ, i.e., if we turn from justification by faith to another gospel (even by reverting to supposed justification, righteousness and/or sanctification by our own dead works) (Gal.2:16-17) then we make ourselves transgressors. (Gal. 2:18)... So serious is this that in his writings, the Apostle Paul equates departing from the truth of the Gospel or turning from the faith, with departing from the Lord. (Gal.1:6)

I believe many have departed from Him because (1) they have rejected the doctrine of Christ, (2) have departed from the truth of the Gospel and (3)have turned from the faith once delivered to the saints.

Because Jesus Himself said He would do so, I believe He will deny those who deny Him, and [to me] this includes blotting out of the names of those who deny Him by departing from the faith.


Beyond this I also believe there is yet another cause for which God Himself will take away someone’s part out of the book of Life. Rev.22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

If we deny Him, He will deny us. And from what I have learned from Him in His word, turning from the faith once delivered to the saints accomplishes the same thing, i.e., turning or departing from the faith is tantamount to denying Him. Other than that, Jesus Himself has also said if anyone takes away from "the words of book of this prophecy" (the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ our Lord) He will take away their "part from the book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

In Christ,

Noteye

onebit said:

Noteye and to all that read this,

I have been much in prayer about this and the Lord has dealt with me. I have concluded that those things which I heard while on my fast are of doubful adherence to the scriptures and because I cannot with a full heart of assurance say that I know it was God; I have decided to denounce it. Mainly because the scripture says that we know his voice. I cannot fully say that I know it was God. It seemed like God. But even Mohammad became convinced he had heard from God, and he was the founder of Islam. So I leave this debate open and leave with warning to all: take heed that you study the scriptures and rightly devide the word of truth and be careful of what seems like God. Seducing spirits are just that, imitators of God. All be assured that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. He will correct all error and will make the path straight. Please forgive me for speaking about something that wasn't settled in me.

I can say this much in faith: Jesus is the Son of God, and by his obedience unto the cross we are made righteous, atoned for all sin. It is not earned. It is a gift sealed unto the day of redemption for all who believe. We who have trusted in Christ as our Savior have been delivered from wrath through Christ's life. I have much to learn.

Billy

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Dear Brother in Christ,

Your humility and obedience in spirit to the faith/and to His word is a credit and a praise to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. I pray the Lord will surround you with His love, lead and guide you by His grace according to His purposes. I pray the Lord will continue to reveal the devices of the enemy in our lives against us and that the Lord will foil those devices for us, in Jesus' Name. Amen.

In Christ,

Noteye

I really enjoyed reading that noteye. I will print out the two articles to save for future reference.

So, in a nutshell....you are saying we can't 'undo' our salvation by sinning....but we can cause it to be undone by denying Christ and turning our back on the faith.

Like that pastor who at some point in his life, decided his belief in Christiantity had all been for naught and spoke against believing in his latter years....basically, choosing to deny Christ....yes?

Some may say...ah, but one who lives a life of sin would fall in that category mentioned in Matthew 7:23...."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

But I do believe the word 'never' is the key here....Jesus NEVER knew them. They may have been performing things under the guise of a follower, but had never truly believed with their heart.

One would have to wonder though....in examining fruit...at what point would you say too much sin is indicative of just rotten fruit and they have never truly been 'known' ? If you thought along those lines, would it ever be proper to gently go to a brother who claims to be a believer but is quite stinky from rotten fruit, and inquiry if they only have head knowledge instead of heart knowledge?

I have not read the entire thread. I was just asked by a good friend to read the last couple of posts and comment, so forgive me if what I am about to say has already been said.

If a person were able to be saved and then un-do that salvation by excersizing some sort of super-human freewill to reject Christ, who then would actually be the author and finisher of their faith?

Further, is it not elevating man above God, and demoting Jesus below the creation to say that God would save a person, make them a new creature in Christ, all the while being entirely oblivious to the fact that they would then un-save themselves?

The concept elevates man above God, the same thing the devil originally tried to do.

Thank you for your patience.

Asaph

Here is where I do get confused....God is the author of our faith...but if we choose of our own free will to turn our back on that very same faith and make a marked decision to renounce the faith...will God honor that?


Is it possible for someone who was a professing Christian to flat-out renounce Jesus.....'unconfess' him...unchoose the faith?

Ooh, an idea! If you chose to renounce the faith, would that then be blaspheme of the Holy Spirit?

If someone truly once had a relationship with the Lord, then made a choice to stop following Jesus...became a Muslim, Buddhist or satanist...and if asked,"Are you a Christian, responded with a solid 'NO'"...then is God in heaven up there saying,"Oh yes you are!"...? If we are no longer confessing Jesus and flat out denying Him....didn't He say He would deny us?

I go back to the famous preacher who renounced the faith...spoke against Jesus.....said he was no longer a Christian. Does that mean he was never a Christian to begin with? He no longer had the faith....are you saying he was saved without faith?

We are saved through Grace and faith, But Faith without works is dead, Can a Christian lose there salvation, absolutley, look at when Paul is saying that if we do certain things we will not inherit the kingdom of God, Now the OSAS's would say well were they saved in the first place? i was once that person totally saved but liked to live a life of self and sin more than live the way the Bible describes, did i still believe ? yes was I going to heaven the way i was? no , The way is narrow, some will come to the father and say "look what i have done, i have cast out demons in your name goteen people saved etc etc" and God will see depart i do not know you. These can be people who God has used but in their Sin have fallen short.

Billy --- what you said in your opening post does reflect what I have found in Scripture. Scripture is inspired by God (2Tim3:16) --- and God will not conflict what is written in Scripture.

Johnd said:

There are many other scriptures teaching the security of salvation.

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In the text I've written*, I have dealt with each of those you present. My text has essentially four sections --- the three "OSAS" views, then "Responsible Grace". I believe I have successfully countered "Predestined-Election", or "Calvinism"; the hardest group to convince. "Responsible Grace" is up against scholars of the status of White, Pink, Spurgeon, Sproul; but Scripture was written for the common man to understand, thus one need not have a degree in theology or Greek to effectively understand.

Then there are the appendixes. One lists "Fifty Verses That Stand Against OSAS". Another summarizes James, and 2Peter, and Hebrews, and Galatians --- letters that throughout strongly oppose OSAS. There is an appendix on "Pre-Trib-Rapture" --- most OSAS proponents also hold to "Pre-Trib" --- together, the two views present the greatest danger (in these "end times") to all Christendom.

* --- the appendix on "Universalism", is still being written; this is why it's not submitted for publication. I realized that the same refutation of Calvinism ("God elects SOME, and all He elects WILL be saved"), also works against the exploding heresy of Universalism ("God elects ALL, and all He elects WILL be saved").

Billy, if there's a verse or passage you would like to discuss, odds are it's represented in the text; Romans 9 is there, Eph1:1-5, Rom8:28-29, all there. John6. Etcetera.

...and there are many, MANY verses that support your OP, that those who hold to "OSAS" cannot address.

Hisgirl said:

I go back to the famous preacher who renounced the faith...spoke against Jesus.....said he was no longer a Christian. Does that mean he was never a Christian to begin with? He no longer had the faith....are you saying he was saved without faith?

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I am assuming you are referring to Charles Templeton. If so, what are the options?

1. He was never saved in the first place, he just made an intellectual determination that Christianity was true and became a preacher vocationally.
2. He actually was saved but made an intellectual determination that he had previously been in error.

I know of no other options. Either he was saved or he was not. In the case of number one, it was a work of the flesh from beginning to end.

Phil 3:17-19
18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame--who set their mind on earthly things.
NKJV

In the case of number two, which is greater, man's highest form of intellegence, or God's simplest?

1 Cor 1:25
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
NKJV

Just something to ponder.

Have an awesome day in the Lord,
Asaph