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Secular sources for Papacy?

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Dominus Fidelis

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Hey-

I have seen some great secular references listed on here for the CC being the original Christian Church, but I was wondering if there is anything out there specifically stating that the "Popes" come from the office of St Peter.

Any one with some gems to share? :wave:
 

Michelina

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Defens0rFidei said:
Hey-

I have seen some great secular references listed on here for the CC being the original Christian Church, but I was wondering if there is anything out there specifically stating that the "Popes" come from the office of St Peter.

Any one with some gems to share? :wave:

Not a clue!

But if someone can access the "Holy Roman Martyrology", there may be some kinda hint there. It is not really secular though, is it?
 
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Bastoune

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Defens0rFidei said:
Hey-

I have seen some great secular references listed on here for the CC being the original Christian Church, but I was wondering if there is anything out there specifically stating that the "Popes" come from the office of St Peter.

Any one with some gems to share? :wave:
You mean the "title" pope or the primacy of Peter? I'm confused. Because there are about a billion quotes and secular references to the primacy of Peter.
 
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Dominus Fidelis

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artnalex said:
I'm not sure I understand your question either?



You seem to be asking if the Pope must come from the Office of Peter, which makes no sense to me at all - as the Pope maintains the Office of Peter. They go together. Can't have one without the other.

I mean do we have secular references to the early Popes that succeded Peter.
 
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Catholicious

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Here are some recent historical sources for the Catholic Church being the Church that JESUS CHRIST Himself established 2000 years ago. I hope this helps.

Roman Catholicism: The largest of the Christian denominations is the Roman Catholic church. As an institution it has existed since the 1st century AD...The name of the church is derived from its base in Rome and from a Greek term meaning "universal." The word Catholic refers to the wholeness of the church, and for many centuries the Roman church claimed to be the only true Christian denomination. (Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia © 1996)

Roman Catholicism: Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctoral and organizational structure that traces its history to the apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century C.E. (Marriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions © 1999, page 938 )

The history of the Roman Church, therefore, in relation to the ancient oriental churches, is in fact, the history of this claim to supremacy. The claim of supremacy on the part of the bishop of Rome rests on the belief that Christ conferred on the apostle Peter a 'primacy of jurisdiction;' that Peter fixed his see and died at Rome and thus, that the bishops of Rome, as successors of the apostle Peter, have succeeded to his preorgatives of supremacy. In this light, historians read the facts of the early history of the church---and they trace to this acknoledgment of the superiority of that see, the numerous references to Rome on matters of doctrine or discipline; the appeals from other churhces, even those of Alexandria, Antioch, and Constantinople; the depositions or nominations of bishops, examination and condemnation of heresies---of which the first five centuries, especially the 4th and 5th, present examples. . . In all the controversies on the Incarnation---the Arian, the Nestorian, the Eutychian, the Monothelite---not only was the orthodoxy of Rome never impeached, but she even supplied at every crisis a rallying point for the orthodox of every church. (Imperial Encyclopedia and Dictionary, Volume 32 © 1903)

The Church of Rome is the earliest of Christian organization; after three centuries of persecution, it was given freedom by the edict of Constantine and Licinius and acquired increased influence. Bishoprics were established in various parts of the empire, but the one at Rome remained supreme, and in time the title of Pope, or father originally borne by all the bishops indiscriminately, began to be restricted to the bishop of Rome. (The World Book Encyclopedia © 1940, Page 6166, Volume 14)

The office of Pope was founded on the words of Christ: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [which means a rock], and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" ( Matthew xvi, 18). The attention of every historian has been attracted by the endurance of the Papacy through centuries that have seen the downfall of every other European institution that existed when the Papacy arose, and of a number of others that have originated and fallen, while it continued t flourish. The Roman Catholic offers these facts as evidence that the Church is not merely a human institution, but that it is built "upon a rock," (The World Book Encyclopedia © 1940, Page 5730 Volume 13)

Historical Notes. The Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church recognizes the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, as the Vicar of Christ on this earth, and as the Head of the Church. It traces its origin from the naming of the Apostles Peter by Jesus as the chief of the Apostles . The authority of Peter as head of the Church is exercised by his successors as the Bishops of Rome. The doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church come from the faith given by Christ to his Apostles. (World Religions, By Benson Y. Landis, © 1957 Page 110)

At first the Christians were terribly persecuted, but gradually they spread the Christ’s radian spirit and teachings until they united many races, classes, and religious beliefs into a brotherhood which extended from Persia to the Atlantic Ocean. Later, this brotherhood spread to American, and Christianity became the prevailing religion of the Western Hemisphere. It has now ben taught in all countries.For nearly a thousand years the Christians remained practically one great community. Then the Greek Catholics broke away from the Roman Catholics. (The World Book Encyclopedia ©1940, Page 1413 Volume 3)

(The Catholic) Church... traces an unbroken line of popes from St. Peter in the 1st century AD to the present occupant of the papal throne. During this nearly 2,000-year period there were more than 30 false popes, most notably during the late 14th and early 15th centuries. These men were merely claimants to the position. There have rarely been periods when a genuine pope was not ruling the church. In 1978 John Paul II became the 264th true pope.(Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia © 1996)


meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Christianity/Denominations/catholicism.htm

Roman Catholicism
The Founding: The apostles of Jesus Christ formed the beginnings of the Christian Church. They helped spread the Gospel and provided structure for the early Church. It is hard to differentiate the beginnings of the Roman Catholic church from that of the early Christian church. The apostle, Peter, also known as Simon, was of central importance. The Church was organized and presided over by Peter. According to the Scriptures, Matthew 16:13- 19, Christ said to Peter: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church." In 313, the Roman Catholic Church was legally recognized by the Roman Emperor Constantine, and, in 380 it became the official religion of the Roman Empire.
 
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RhetorTheo

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I've already commented on those sources by Catholicious before. They may be useful for showing to many unbelievers, but personally I don't find a secular reference that "the Church traces its origins back to Peter" to mean "the Church's origins extend back to Peter." The newer sources cited seem suspiciously vague like that. But depending on who you are trying to impress, those might be very useful.
 
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Polycarp1

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If I may bring the "supportive non-Catholic" perspective into play here, I would suggest that one of the strongest proofs, beyond the Scripture, lies in the tradition of the Orthodox before the Great Schism -- though they strongly emphasized "conciliarism" beyond what Catholicism is willing to go, the Bishop of Rome and Patriarch of the West was considered the successor to Peter as the chief spokesman for the united holy catholic and apostolic church, the one who had primacy among the leaders of the church. To me this is a witness to the importance of the Papacy from those who would deny exclusivity of leadership to him, and therefore serves as a voice supportive of the Catholic claims for his role from the earliest days of the church. The account (in Ignatius? I don't remember for sure as I type) of the meeting of Sts. Polycarp and Anicetus, which for obvious reasons I've become familiar with, tends to underscore that point.
 
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Axion

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I think you're on a difficult quest here, Defens0rFidei.

1.) The main interaction between the secular world and the Church for the first three centuries was one of persecution and demonisation, and the sorts of things written about Christians in early secular sources were not scholarly reports on the leadership structure, but stuff of the "Christians drink human blood and plot the downfall of the Empire" type. The most likely secular sources would be official reports of the persecutions, but I don't know if many (or any) of these have survived.

2.) After the legalization of Christianity, the main writings we have on Christianity are still from Christian sources, particularly after 400 AD when christian sources became virtually the only written sources, following the barbarian invasions. So I take it that we are looking for secular historians, or Roman Imperial Official reports about the Church in this early period. Are there any surviving sources that qualify??
 
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Axion

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From the Codex Theodosianus. 4th century:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/codex-theod1.html
C. Th.XVI.i.2: We desire that all the people under the rule of our clemency should live by that religion which divine Peter the apostle is said to have given to the Romans, and which it is evident that Pope Damasus and Peter, bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity, followed; that is that we should believe in the one deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with equal majesty and in the Holy Trinity according to the apostolic teaching and the authority of the gospel. Gratian, Valentinian and Theodosius Augusti.
C. Th. XVI.v.iii: Whenever there is found a meeting of a mob of Manichaeans, let the leaders be punished with a heavy fine and let those who attended be known as infamous and dishonored, and be shut out from association with men, and let the house and the dwellings where the profane doctrine was taught be seized by the officers of the city. Valentinian and Valens Augusti.​

 
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Michelina

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I take it that we are looking for secular historians, or Roman Imperial Official reports about the Church in this early period. Are there any surviving sources that qualify??

There's Pliny but he doesn't address the Papacy.

There was an article in 30days mag in the 80's about Peter's Tomb under the basilica. It is well-written Archeology.
 
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Skripper

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Defens0rFidei said:
Hey-

I have seen some great secular references listed on here for the CC being the original Christian Church, but I was wondering if there is anything out there specifically stating that the "Popes" come from the office of St Peter.

Any one with some gems to share? :wave:
I think I may have what you're looking for. The 1995 World Almanac, on page 735, lists all the popes, starting with St. Peter.

Presumably, more recent editions of the World Almanac would also have this. Does that help?
 
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Dominus Fidelis

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Skripper said:
I think I may have what you're looking for. The 1995 World Almanac, on page 735, lists all the popes, starting with St. Peter.

Presumably, more recent editions of the World Almanac would also have this. Does that help?

Yes, thanks, I will look for it.
 
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