Secular Morality?

[Vicar Philip]

I'm curious how theists react to a known atheist behaving in an entirely moral fashion. I will use myself as an example.

Prior to my loss of belief in Christianity, and god in general, I was a good husband; a good father; honest; hard-working; and, not to speak TOO highly of myself, very easy to get along with.

Since my change in belief, nearly a year ago, I haven't degraded a single aspect of my character (despite my non-belief). I am still deeply in love with my (theistic) wife, still a very committed parent, brutally honest, hard-working (advanced in my job twice), and still easy to get along with.

How would theists explain my continued morality? Without god in place to guide my moral compass, how is it that I'm still honest, faithful to my wife, dedicated to my four children, and just as industrious as I was before? And please don't attribute my continued good character to my prior faith. As my wife contended, I have "abandoned" god. Surely he would no longer "bless" me with his guidance since I have "denied" him?

 

[Philostratus]

Welcome Philip!


I, too, am a non-believing moralist. It is of the one main reasons why I post in the Christian Forums. I am curious as well why I continue ( I say continue because I come from a religious Catholic background, though I am not sure I ever bought it) to dedicate myself to a life of moral correctness. What is my standard if is not the Bible? It is myself. Myself includes the Bible and its teachings, but many other readings, experiences and people who have helped me to obtain the wisdom to make moral decisions. I fathom I am no different than religious folk except for my skepticism of the supernatural. More to the point: I believe that they are no different than me in that it is ultimately they themselves who make their own moral decisions, just like I do.

 

[EspressoDuck]

I'm not going to post in this forum very often, because I usually get excited on an idea and speak my mind without the proper backup, but I just wanted to give my thoughts. I am a Christian, and so my morality is shaped by my beliefs on what is right and wrong, based on the bible. But I think it is not at all unusual for somone who is not a Christian or otherwise 'religious' to have good morals. I think it is perfectly normal for an atheist to walk down the street and return a dropped wallet to a man instead of keeping it, because of his morals. Although I personally believe that God placed a sense of right and wrong in all of us. (Please don't let that be the issue, though, just my own opinion.) If you are brought up learning to turn the other cheek, and be kind to your neighbor, to not steal things or to commit any crimes, to not lie or cheat, than it is not unusual for you to become an adult and still practice those morals. I think that what some call a concience, and others, the Holy Spirit, is in all of us, even those who do immoral things. I think that something that is immoral is something that would in some way, somewhere, cause someone pain because of something you've done. Or in the case of sexual immorality, homosexuality for example (Again, it's just an example, so please dont let it be the issue...) it is often looked upon as immoral by atheists and Christians alike because it, possibly in the case of atheists, goes against what nature intended sex to be, a way to reproduce. And in the case of Christians, the Bible says not to do it. So since in either case, it is not meant to happen, maybe it is just implanted in us not to do it. In the case of those who do practice it, please forgive me, it's not a very stable example, I'm just trying to make a point. I hope I was able to make sense at all...

 

[Arikay]

I agree with CelandineBaggins. Not to mention that the idea of Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, should be a staple in everyones life. If you treat someone well, they will often treat you well back. So its in your best interest to treat people well, because it just keeps problems away.

 

[pamanfu]

I'm curious how theists react to a known atheist behaving in an entirely moral fashion. I will use myself as an example.

Prior to my loss of belief in Christianity, and god in general, I was a good husband; a good father; honest; hard-working; and, not to speak TOO highly of myself, very easy to get along with.

Since my change in belief, nearly a year ago, I haven't degraded a single aspect of my character (despite my non-belief). I am still deeply in love with my (theistic) wife, still a very committed parent, brutally honest, hard-working (advanced in my job twice), and still easy to get along with.

How would theists explain my continued morality? Without god in place to guide my moral compass, how is it that I'm still honest, faithful to my wife, dedicated to my four children, and just as industrious as I was before? And please don't attribute my continued good character to my prior faith. As my wife contended, I have "abandoned" god. Surely he would no longer "bless" me with his guidance since I have "denied" him?

Hi

First I would like to say that though you may have turned from God, I pray that you may one day find comfort in the amazing Gace that Jesus Christ is willing to freely give to those who ask.

Second, we (all of us, believers and non believers) are given (by God) a moral compass...our conscience. It benefits believers and non believers alike, to follow that conscience. God extends his mercy on ALL people for a time. While we are on this earth, we can make a choice to follow Jesus or not. All the same, God wants all of us to enjoy his great creation while we have the opportunity.

Unfortunately, we (believers and non believers alike) are of a fallen nature. And Apart from the mercy and Grace of God thru the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, are incapable of living up to the holy standard that God demands.

Thanks to the Grace of God, we fallen creatures have the wonderful opportunity to share in Gods glory.

Perhaps those who profess to have not completely fallen away, and continue to live a fairly moral life, are not completely lost at all. Though you may have turned you back on God, this does not mean that you are lost. God wants all of his children to come to him. Though we all backslide, God has a way of pointing us in the right direction again.

 

[Annabel Lee]

Morality and goodness have very little to do with whether one is a theist or an atheist.
It seems to be seperate from God belief.
A good moral human being is going to be that way whether they believe in God or not. And vice-versa.
I believe it has more to do with upbringing and the person's innate moral compass.

 

[Diatrive]

Hi

First I would like to say that though you may have turned from God, I pray that you may one day find comfort in the amazing Gace that Jesus Christ is willing to freely give to those who ask.

Second, we (all of us, believers and non believers) are given (by God) a moral compass...our conscience. It benefits believers and non believers alike, to follow that conscience. God extends his mercy on ALL people for a time. While we are on this earth, we can make a choice to follow Jesus or not. All the same, God wants all of us to enjoy his great creation while we have the opportunity.

Unfortunately, we (believers and non believers alike) are of a fallen nature. And Apart from the mercy and Grace of God thru the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, are incapable of living up to the holy standard that God demands.

Thanks to the Grace of God, we fallen creatures have the wonderful opportunity to share in Gods glory.

Perhaps those who profess to have not completely fallen away, and continue to live a fairly moral life, are not completely lost at all. Though you may have turned you back on God, this does not mean that you are lost. God wants all of his children to come to him. Though we all backslide, God has a way of pointing us in the right direction again.

Just a tip. Your thoughts would be much more respected if you would drop the rhetoric and just layed out your idea. Why must everything be wrapped in "light, grace, blah , blah blah . " seriously, this banter just turns most people off.
It's almost like you need to constantly reaffirm yourself by the use of your language.

As far as the main point of the post. Most "morals" are used to facilitate the continued functioning of society so they are "taught" to us at an early age by all groups, to extend the likelihood of that group being able to continue on.
They are a basic function of the framework of a society.

 

[chipdouglas]

Most "morals" are used to facilitate the continued functioning of society so they are "taught" to us at an early age by all groups, to extend the likelihood of that group being able to continue on.
They are a basic function of the framework of a society.

how can you be so sure of this? you seem not to believe in God as a result of a lack of proof, and yet you believe this - and with what proof? why believe one and not the other? it's not a completely illogical argument or anything; although i don't believe it, it is sensible. but there are potentially thousands of "reasons" for the existence of morals, why choose this one? i'm just curious to know what the "proof" is.

 

[armed2010]

Chipdouglas, because normally someones morals are based on how they are raised. Someone raised in a home where they arent taught good values and morals, normally goes out and is mean and nasty to other people. Someone raised in a home where they are taught to be good and kind, normally goes out and has good morals. If god gives us morals, then why do most people raised in immoral homes lacking them?

 

[pamanfu]

Just a tip. Your thoughts would be much more respected if you would drop the rhetoric and just layed out your idea. Why must everything be wrapped in "light, grace, blah , blah blah . " seriously, this banter just turns most people off.
It's almost like you need to constantly reaffirm yourself by the use of your language. QUOTE]

You are entitled to your opinion, but what you call banter, and rhetoric, I call truth.

You ask why everything must be wrapped in light, grace...
It's Grace which saves us... It is Gods light that shines on us.

 

[armed2010]

Pamanfu, you cant just prove something though by quoting your religious book. I wouldnt come here and start spewing things from the Quran, or reading off some of the roman god texts, or talking about buddhist morals.

 

[Diatrive]

how can you be so sure of this? you seem not to believe in God as a result of a lack of proof, and yet you believe this - and with what proof? why believe one and not the other? it's not a completely illogical argument or anything; although i don't believe it, it is sensible. but there are potentially thousands of "reasons" for the existence of morals, why choose this one? i'm just curious to know what the "proof" is.

I am not sure of this. I am merely offering it up as my opinion. This, to me is the most logical answer.

Why? Well, I would think that any group of organisms that has a complete disregard to the safety of others of its own kind, without some sort of quick breeding pace would burn itself out. While a group that has fallen in balance between the speed of its breeding process, and its nature to care for others of its kind, will thrive.

I may be completely wrong, this is just how I like to look at it.

 

[Mephster]

I'm curious how theists react to a known atheist behaving in an entirely moral fashion. I will use myself as an example.

How would theists explain my continued morality? Without god in place to guide my moral compass, how is it that I'm still honest, faithful to my wife, dedicated to my four children, and just as industrious as I was before? And please don't attribute my continued good character to my prior faith. As my wife contended, I have "abandoned" god. Surely he would no longer "bless" me with his guidance since I have "denied" him?

You are pursuing the basic human goods. (Cp. Chappell's Understanding Human Goods: A Theory of Ethics and G. Grisez's Beyond the New Morality)

No problem. Fits for atheists and theists. (Grisez is a Christian).

 

[Diatrive]

You are entitled to your opinion, but what you call banter, and rhetoric, I call truth.

You ask why everything must be wrapped in light, grace...
It's Grace which saves us... It is Gods light that shines on us.

No, you are missing my point. The terminology that you are using does not fit in the context of concise discussion.

Concise:
1 : marked by brevity of expression or statement : free from all elaboration and superfluous detail

If you are going to use a statement like "Gods light that shines on us.", I would like an explanation of what that means literally.

Hopefully you see what I mean.

 

[pamanfu]

Pamanfu, you cant just prove something though by quoting your religious book. I wouldnt come here and start spewing things from the Quran, or reading off some of the roman god texts, or talking about buddhist morals.

Your quite right!
There is no scientific proof of Gods existance. I do have faith though. I am willing to accept that there are some things that we have no anwers for. I see how people who once were athists, have surrendered to the possibility of something greater than us in Jesus Christ. I have seen how these people, who once were so lost and alone in this world, found, and accepted Christ through faith. I have seen these people experience joy in there lives.

I know that the critic will state that they have heard it all before, and that it is all just Christian propoganda, but I have seen the transformation in people who only a short time ago believed just as you do. I love Jesus, and Despite lack of proof of his existance, I belief through faith. I have joy and comfort in my life, because of my belief. I only wish to share the good news.

As far as the Islam and Buddism and Wicca or any other Pegan belief is concerned, I know that they have faith in their beliefs, just as I do in mine. I have no issue with the non believer. I believe that all Christians should love one another, and love those who don't believe just as much. But it is my duty as a christian to spread the good news.

I have gotten off the point of this thread I think. Sorry.

Regarding this thread and the original topic, I guess all I'm really trying to say is that even though (atheist/Christian/Other) says that they are good, and moral etc. they are not good enough for God.

I believe that God loves us.
Jesus Christ Died for our sins, and rose again.
With out this, no matter how good we think are we, all fall short of the standard God requires.
God demands that we recognize this, and repent of our sins. If wee are willing to recognize what God has done for us, we will be rewarded with his everlasting love.

For Deatrive:
Light = Gods love for us. Even though we sin continuously, he is willing to forgive us. But we must accept the gift which has been offered.

 

[Diatrive]

For Deatrive:
Light = Gods love for us. Even though we sin continuously, he is willing to forgive us. But we must accept the gift which has been offered.

Pheww this is going to take a while.

Okay, you answered my question. You defined your term though I still disagree with its usage in any clear discussion.

So my counterpoint to you is, in discussion why would you choose to use the terms "light shining down" which is confusing, as opposed to clearly stating "gods love for humanity".
Back to my original point, your choice of words are rhetoric in the sense they are "any attempt to persuade that does not attempt to give good reasons for the belief, desire or action in question, but attempts to motivate that belief, desire or action solely through the power of the words used."
So you are using words that you believe will affect the other individual emotionally as opposed to just stating your case in clear and literal speech.

Now that addresses the first part of your response. Why do you continue on and make other claims and comments that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand?!? This further confuses any understanding or focus on the current topic of discussion.

This is a BIG thing for me. I am replying to this person individually but I address all the theists here, actually this should be its own thread.
I am sure there are some theists here that see what I am talking about.

 

[12volt_man]

I'm curious how theists react to a known atheist behaving in an entirely moral fashion. I will use myself as an example.

Prior to my loss of belief in Christianity, and god in general, I was a good husband; a good father; honest; hard-working; and, not to speak TOO highly of myself, very easy to get along with.

Since my change in belief, nearly a year ago, I haven't degraded a single aspect of my character (despite my non-belief). I am still deeply in love with my (theistic) wife, still a very committed parent, brutally honest, hard-working (advanced in my job twice), and still easy to get along with.

How would theists explain my continued morality? Without god in place to guide my moral compass, how is it that I'm still honest, faithful to my wife, dedicated to my four children, and just as industrious as I was before? And please don't attribute my continued good character to my prior faith. As my wife contended, I have "abandoned" god. Surely he would no longer "bless" me with his guidance since I have "denied" him?

There are good atheists, just as there are bad Christians.

The question isn't "how can an atheist be good", but "what happens when it's no longer in his best interests to be good".

As for God's guidance, how can God guide you when you don't have the Holy Spirit and don't believe the Bible?