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Secrets on a parchment ?

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hawko

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For your discernment:
IN MOST UNUSUAL CLAIM AT APPARITION SITE, SECRETS ARE SAID TO BE ON A 'PARCHMENT'
mirjan1.jpg
One of the most peculiar and fascinating aspects of "secrets" as claimed at the famous apparition site of Medjugorje is the notion that a visionary named Mirjana Dragicevic Soldo received a mysterious parchment on which her messages are written.

It is of course impossible to verify without seeing. No journalists have seen it, nor have priests, at least not any who have proclaimed such in public.
And it seems so implausible.
Yet, there is at least one historical precedent in the literature of mystical theology, to our recollection, and Mirjana, who was educated at the University of Sarajevo, and whose father was a hospital radiographer, has always been a credible woman, passing even tests conducted with a lie detector.
Mirjana, who was the second youngster to see the Blessed Mother on June 24, 1981 and the first to receive all ten promised secrets, was interviewed for a book called Visions of the Children by a prominent attorney named Jan Connell, who asked how she remembered the secrets.
"I have them written down," said Mirjana.
"In your own handwriting?" asked the lawyer.
"No."
"In the Blessed Mother's handwriting?"
"I received a parchment with the secrets written on it from the Blessed Mother," claimed Mirjana -- as she also told others in the 1990s, for your discernment.
Can there really be a physical substance from an apparition? And what about actual writing? There was of course the manna that rained from the sky in biblical times, the issuance of the Ten Commandments on tablets, and a strange if ethereal glitter that was reported at the apparition site of Fatima. Materialization of liquid and even blood on "miraculous" statues might be cited as another example. There have been Eucharistic miracles (allegedly involving materialization of hosts), and objects such as the Shroud of Turin.
But it remains an extraordinary claim.
The parchment, Mirjana said at the time, was kept in her bedroom at her family's house in Sarajevo (she had been spending summers with a grandmother in Medjugorje when the apparitions began). A source close to her says it is believed it is no longer in that city but in the Medjugorje vicinity.
"If I looked at that parchment, what would I see?" asked the attorney.
"Everyone who has seen it has seen something different," replied the visionary.
But only Mirjana can see what it says, and what it spells out, allegedly -- and incredibly -- is all ten of her secrets.
"The ten secrets are written on this parchment?" asked the lawyer.
"Yes."
"That means you don't have to remember the secrets. You can pull that parchment and read it?"
"I remember everything," said Mirjana, who is now 43. "I don't need the parchment to remember the secrets."
Might it be that when the time comes her priest will view it?
It was upon reception of the tenth in December of 1982 that Mirjana's daily apparitions ended. She still sees Mary on the second of each month as well as her birthday March 18 and often she speaks to the Blessed Mother about those secrets.
At times, the seer has been seen to cry during those purported encounters. During one, Mirjana seemed whipped back and forth three times as by the wind. "The Blessed Mother was speaking to me about very serious things," she said afterwards.
That apparition occurred in 1990 in Portland.
parchm1.jpg
Her first two secrets will be publicly announced several days before they occur by a priest she chose specifically to do this, Father Petar Ljubicic, who now resides in Germany (and who made a special trip to speak to our pilgrim group during our last pilgrimage, left).

The first two of her secrets involve warnings to the world. According to Father Petar, they will occur in Medjugorje. It is also this priest's opinion that events in the world seem to draw us closer to that first secret -- although the visionary has been very strict on releasing any detail and has confirmed no opinions.
Mirjana told Connell in the book that "the first two secrets will be warnings to the world -- events that will occur before a visible sign is given to humanity. These will happen in my lifetime. Ten days before the first secret and the second secret, I will notify Father Petar."
What she has said is that "the first secret will break the power of Satan, and that is why he is aggressive now."
Fascinating is this too from Visions of the Children:
"According to Mirjana, there were three things Satan did not know:
-- The Eternal Father would send Mary, the 'woman' of His covenant with His people, throughout the century, to warn, encourage, and mother the souls struggling in this time of great darkness.
-- The Eternal Father would permit such vast amounts of grace in the world as has never before been known in the history of mankind.
-- The Eternal Father would send chosen souls who would remain faithful no matter what the allure or attack of Satan."
Asked if her secrets involved global economic collapse, Mirjana said that, "I don't know anything about that." Like others, she has emphasized the importance of "recognizing the signs of our times" but not to the point of fear or obsession. "The secrets will unfold in my lifetime. I can say no more. Please ask people not to focus on the future. Our life is one day at a time. Tomorrow is no threat for those who trust God."
[resources: Jan Connell's Visions of the Children and Queen of the Cosmos]

 
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thereselittleflower

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No, there are no such "secrets" Marijana is not credible, neither are the other seers. They have been caught in lies under oath to the Bishops.

There is no true apparition of Mary occuring at Medjugorje, it is an elaborate hoax or worse, for it is causing schism in the Church in the area, and has resulted in "seers" and priests who lie and who flaungt disobedience to the Bishops and even the Pope.

There as a great deal of wealth coming into the area through tourism by pilgrims, and the seers live in mansions and drive expensive cars and are becoming wealthy off these "apparitions".

These are all signs of false apparitions.
 
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hawko

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I disagree with you. Medjugorje and most of the other Marian apparitions that occurred in the twentieth century are repeating the message of Fatima, which has been ignored by most people. The Lord is attempting to warn us through his Blessed Mother that we are living in very serious times. We need to pay attention to Medjugorje and all the other Marian apparitions that the Lord in His great mercy has allowed to help rescue all who are on the road to hell.
 
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thereselittleflower

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<p>
I disagree with you. Medjugorje and most of the other Marian apparitions that occurred in the twentieth century are repeating the message of Fatima,
That's OK, we can disagree, however, Medjugorje is actually detracting from Fatima by being a distraction from the real messages given at Fatima, and the Bishops involved are very concerned about this.

The first hurdle you have to get over is proving that this is a legitimate apparition of Mary, which cannot be done given all the signs that it is false.

Naju was condemned for the very same things that are happening at Medjugorje. The Church is not fickle, so it is only a matter of time before Medjugorje is also condemned.

Satan can imitate all the fruits except one - humble obedience to legitimate Church authority. He can't stand it.


Medjugorje reaks of rank disobediece to legitimate Church authority starting with the local Bishop, who is the local ordinary and legitimate authority in this matter, all the way to the Pope himself.
Seers who lie under oath are not credible and cannot be trusted, so why think they can be trusted regarding the messages?

The lie that the first apparition came when one of the seers was seeking a lost lamb (imitating Lourdes) was repeated under oath, and when the seer was reminded this was a lie and she was under oath, she immediately recanted and gave the truth - she and others were sneaking outside to smoke cigarettes behind their parents' back. Then, after this was revealed under oath, they went back to telling the same lie.

Nothing supporting the apparitions is trustwrothy out of Medjugorje. So nothing is helping Fatima or the Church. Again it is causing schism and rebellion against the local ordinary who is the competent authority as well as rebellion against the Pope himself.
Mary doesn't do this Hawko. This is not Mary.

which has been ignored by most people. The Lord is attempting to warn us through his Blessed Mother that we are living in very serious times.
It is not Mary so the Lord cannot be doing any such thing.
We need to pay attention to Medjugorje and all the other Marian apparitions that the Lord in His great mercy has allowed to help rescue all who are on the road to hell.
Only those apparitions which have been approved should be paid attention to, not unapproved ones, especially those which have received repeated negative judgements.

3 times at least Medjugorje has been investigated by competent authority and 3 times it has been judged there is nothing to support a claim that anything supernatural is going on there.

Now the Vatican is involved and since the messages are ongoing it cannot be to approve them, and given the rank disobedience to competent Church authority and falsehoods coming out of Medjugorje, as well as the self gratification with material wealth seers are engaging in, it can only be to take the negative judgements already rendered to consider condemnation now.
 
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hawko

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<p>


Satan can imitate all the fruits except one - humble obedience to legitimate Church authority. He can't stand it.


This is just common sense; satan would not be behind a scheme that draws millions upon millions closer to our Lord.

There are many people who now pray the rosary more often, attend daily mass, who never did this before, and fast on Wednesdays and Fridays. These "good fruits" are a result of the messages from these apparitions.
 
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thereselittleflower

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thereselittleflower

Satan can imitate all the fruits except one - humble obedience to legitimate Church authority. He can't stand it.
This is just common sense; satan would not be behind a scheme that draws millions upon millions closer to our Lord.

Of course he can! It would be one of his greatest acheivements, to appear to draw people to God on his own terms, in a manner in which faith is put in a so-called apparition, and when the Church eventually condemns it, the faith of millions is put in the balance because what they put faith in, this so-called apparition, is declared false.

The destruction of faith, falsely placed, would be his goal, and how great it will be.

Satan has no problems with faith put in God based on a false apparition, because this faith in God is dependent in some way on this false apparition, and when the apparition falls, so will the faith of millions. And when this happens, they will have various responses - some will leave God altogether - others will have their faith in God put on very shakey ground and find it difficult to trust again - others will put aside all supernatural revelations and thus be deprived of their help.

This is not innocuous - it is very, very dangerous.


Placing faith in God for the wrong reasons can have dissasterous effects, for then their faith in God is not placed on a firm foundation.


There are many people who now pray the rosary more often, attend daily mass, who never did this before, and fast on Wednesdays and Fridays. These "good fruits" are a result of the messages from these apparitions.

That is all very true. And satan does not have a problem with this, for, when the time comes for the Church to ultimately denounce this as false, the faith of all these people, to the degree that it is built on this false apparition, will be to that degree hangiing in the balance.. . . . .

Satan will be able to achieve much.
 
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gabrielListens

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Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.


UNTIL THE VATICAN MAKES A DECISION CONERNING MEDJUGORJE, JUDGE NOT THOSE WHO BELIEVE FOR THIS IS THE SAME WAY THAT FATIMA AND LOURDES WERE JUDGED AND DENIED BEFORE THEY WERE APPROVED!!

Here is the Vatican's current perspective on Medjugorje:

In the case of Medjugorje, when the local Bishop no longer supported the apparitions, the case was referred to the Conference of Yugoslav Bishops. The Conference of Yugoslav Bishops stated that they did not have sufficient proof to make a decision but that they would wait to make a pronouncement. The Vatican then decided to reserve the decision for themselves. It is the first time in history that the Vatican has reserved the decision about an apparition of Our Lady, to itself. This past year, 2007, the Vatican requested that the Bishops of Bosnia and Herzegovina constitute a new commission to investigate what has been happening in Medjugorje. All of the documents are being collected again by the Franciscans here in Medjugorje.
The Vatican has still said, however, that they will maintain a direct interest in what the decision is. The Church therefore, is protecting Medjugorje before She comes out with a final decision. Again, She cannot make a statement until the apparitions have ended; and there is some proof that the secrets have been revealed, which will be, as we know from the messages, during the life time of the visionaries.

(text copied from childrenofmedjugorje.com's website)
 
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thereselittleflower

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Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.


UNTIL THE VATICAN MAKES A DECISION CONERNING MEDJUGORJE, JUDGE NOT THOSE WHO BELIEVE FOR THIS IS THE SAME WAY THAT FATIMA AND LOURDES WERE JUDGED AND DENIED BEFORE THEY WERE APPROVED!!

And? So what?

We are to be wise as serpents and as gentle as doves.

We are to judge right and wrong, turth and error.

The errors of Naju are repeated at Medjugorje. Naju was condemned for these same errors, these same wrongs, as false.

It is only a matter of time before Medjugorje is judged accordingly.

To judge the truthfulness or falseness of a so called "apparition" is not judging others. It is judging claims made.


Medjugorje seers and priests have lied, have thumbed their noses at the Bishops, their superiors, and even the Pope himself, have conducted themselves in rank disobedience to the competent authority of the Church which has, among other things, forbidden the publicizing of these so called "messages" and for all receiving of messages to stop.

The Bishops have been ignored and grieviously disobeyed. Even now we see this disobedience bearing its fruit for the messages have been publicized by those forbidden to do so and so others have easy access to them to continue to publicize them everywhere, even after it is known the Church has forbidden this.

Franciscan priests have had their priestly faculties revoked by their Bishops, thier superiors in their order and by the Pope himself, yet inr ank disobedience they continue to hear confessions and do all they have been forbidden to do and foster schism in the Church.

The seers have lied under oath, repeatedly.

The seers amass wealth, live in mansions, drive expensive cars, and one even charges thousands of dollars to pilgrims for the priviledge of staying with him in his mansion, and even the possiblity of a private audience with "Mary". You can purchase this priviledge on the web.

No seer has become religious. A couple have tried and failed - they were dismissed.


These are not the fruits of a valid supernatural apparition of Mary. All this is well documented through the investigations already conducted by the Bishops involved, and I for one will not be silent about this great deception being perpetrated upon the unsuspecting.


So, please do not try to tell us we are not to judge the signs. The Church calls us to judge and discern.

When what is obviously false, which is easily deterimined once the details are known, is promoted as true, it must be stood up against and exposed.

Medjugorje is a stumbling block of immense proportions, which is so well disguised to the eyes of those who look no futher than what is seen superficially, and a great deception.

In addition, the so called "historical" perspective is nothing but propaganda put out by the medjugorje propaganda machine -

There have been at least 3 commisions - all by competent authority, starting with the Bishop of Mostar, then the conference of bishops.

Nothing was taken away from the local Bishop, who is, first and foremost, the competent authority on the matter. He has been involved at all levels. The Vatican, moving as it has now, bodes very ill for Medjugorje, and we have even had a hint of what is coming from a Vatican insider who has stated it will not be long before the Vatican condemns Medjugorje.

We have our current Pope's view on record, recently expressed to the local bishop, that he and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith are incredulous that anyone can believe Mary has been appearing daily for so long. They are well aware of the Bishops personal determination that there is nothing supernatural happening (outright condemnation) and that Mary is not appearing. They are well aware that the previous 3 commissions all arrived at the same conclusion, that there was no evidence anything superantural was happeing - not outright condemnation but a negative judgement repeated 3 times.


THIS IS NOT MARY.


It is only a matter of time before the Vatican makes a formal announcement of this fact.




What will then happen to the faith of all those who put so many eggs into this basket . . . . .
 
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hawko

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The Lord or the Blessed Mother can appear and give messages to whomever they want to. There is "no rule" which states that the seers have to be "holy" people. Peoples lives can be transformed by the "messages", and the grace of God, not by the seers. We all have imperfections, but despite that, the Lord can still use us to accomplish His goals.
 
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thereselittleflower

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The Lord or the Blessed Mother can appear and give messages to whomever they want to. There is "no rule" which states that the seers have to be "holy" people. Peoples lives can be transformed by the "messages", and the grace of God, not by the seers. We all have imperfections, but despite that, the Lord can still use us to accomplish His goals.

Yes, there are rules hawko that the Church uses as guidance to discerne the true from the false.

To say there are no rules is to say we have no plumblines to guide us in such discernement which strains credulity to the max.

Of course there are rules. How is it credible that those who are caught repeatedly in lies about their claims of a so called "apparition" should be trusted to tell the truth about their claims of a so called apparition?

God does not use proven liars to deliver important messages to the world, for only the foolish would believe them.

It would be good to educate oneself about how the Church goes about discerning private revelation. The morality of the receivers of such "private revelation" is very pertinent to the discernment process, and such issues as I have given in this thread are defacto reasons to outright condemn such claims as false as the Church did regarding Naju.


CREDIBILITY is a HUGE issue . . .the Church does not attribute credibility to those who have repeatedly proven themselves liars. This is one of the reasons 3 commissions have come to the NEGATIVE conclusion there is absolutely no evidence that anything supernatural is happening at Medjugorje, and the current Bishop supports the Vatican in deciding that the claims are to be outright condemned as false.

If anyone does treat as credible these claims and messages from seers known to be liars, then this is a problem for those who do so. But the Church is not foolish.
 
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