Second Question :D

Buttermilk · Apr 30, 2005

Do children need to go to church or Sunday School?

I teach in a Sundayschool class for 3-5 year olds. At that age the kids (mostly (although I have come across a couple of smart Alexes ) will accept what you tell them without question. They are brought because their parents bring them and they don't question it because they don't understand the concept of questioning at that age.

As they get older they will start to question, some will want to continue coming along while others don't (Elect versus non Elect?)

Should parents force these children to continue attending (especially those who have reached their teen years and are capable of understanding what they do and don't believe)?

Is there any point in children being in Sundayschool - won't their Elective status will be discovered when they are older, so they don't need to go to church or Sundayschool until then, when they "decide" for themselves that they want to go?

Elderone · May 3, 2005

These answers are assuming the parents are Christians and attending Sunday school and worship services with the children.

Should parents force these children to continue attending especially those who have reached their teen years and are capable of understanding what they do and don't believe?

Q. When do children living in their parents household stop living by the parents rules?
A. Never.

Pr 22:6 ¶ Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Train up a child. This is not a request.

Is there any point in children being in Sunday school - won't their Elective status be discovered when they are older, so they don't need to go to church or Sunday school until then, when they "decide" for themselves that they want to go?

Considering the depravity of us all we don't make choices for God unless we have been given the Gift of Grace. Those who have been given the Gift will continue to attend, and those who have not, and are still under their parents care or housing no matter the age, are to continue attending if that is the parents requirement.

The following passage is applicable to all Christians.

Heb 10:25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as [is] the manner of some, but exhorting [one another], and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Here is what Matthew Henry says about Hebrews 10:25:

Not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, #Heb 10:25. It is the will of Christ that his disciples should assemble together, sometimes more privately for conference and prayer, and in public for hearing and joining in all the ordinances of gospel worship. There were in the apostles' times, and should be in every age, Christian assemblies for the worship of God, and for mutual edification. And it seems even in those times there were some who forsook these assemblies, and so began to apostatize from religion itself. The communion of saints is a great help and privilege, and a good means of steadiness and perseverance; hereby their hearts and hands are mutually strengthened. . To exhort one another, to exhort ourselves and each other, to warn ourselves and one another of the sin and danger of backsliding, to put ourselves and our fellow-christians in mind of our duty, of our failures and corruptions, to watch over one another, and be jealous of ourselves and one another with a godly jealousy. This, managed with a true gospel spirit, would be the best and most cordial friendship.

I'm curious as to why a liberal Christian is asking these questions in the Reformed/Calvin/conservative forum?

Buttermilk · May 3, 2005

Thank you for replying to my question/s. In response to your responses I am not trying to debate so please forgive me if it looks like I am trying to debate I will try and not put my ideas across in a confrontational way

Elderone said:
These answers are assuming the parents are Christians and attending Sunday school and worship services with the children.

Sorry, yes I was making that assumption although I have known parents to use Sunday School as a baby sitting service L

Q. When do children living in their parents household stop living by the parents rules?

A. Never.

Train up a child. This is not a request.

Yes and no. If a child reaches 16/18 they are an adult in their own right and should be able to make their own decisions (I am not saying they should not abide by common courtesy), but in personal issues like this it should be a personal decision.

Considering the depravity of us all we don't make choices for God unless we have been given the Gift of Grace. Those who have been given the Gift will continue to attend, and those who have not, and are still under their parents care or housing no matter the age, are to continue attending if that is the parents requirement.

If they are older 16+ and do not want to be there do you not think that will bring about resentment, possibly against their parents.

The following passage is applicable to all Christians.

Here is what Matthew Henry says about Hebrews 10:25:

Not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, #Heb 10:25. It is the will of Christ that his disciples should assemble together, sometimes more privately for conference and prayer, and in public for hearing and joining in all the ordinances of gospel worship. There were in the apostles' times, and should be in every age, Christian assemblies for the worship of God, and for mutual edification. And it seems even in those times there were some who forsook these assemblies, and so began to apostatize from religion itself. The communion of saints is a great help and privilege, and a good means of steadiness and perseverance; hereby their hearts and hands are mutually strengthened. . To exhort one another, to exhort ourselves and each other, to warn ourselves and one another of the sin and danger of backsliding, to put ourselves and our fellow-christians in mind of our duty, of our failures and corruptions, to watch over one another, and be jealous of ourselves and one another with a godly jealousy. This, managed with a true gospel spirit, would be the best and most cordial friendship.

There is not a problem with the content of the passage above per ce, but as you say it applies to Christians. If the children are not Christians it means nothing to them, and may instil resentment.

I'm curious as to why a liberal Christian is asking these questions in the Reformed/Calvin/conservative forum?

Oh dont worry I have not converted to Calvinism . I ask the questions because I am interested in the response I am curious how you interprate your doctrine (especially that of Election) in light of my questions. I am a member of the Church of Scotland, but I cannot and do not subscribe to Calvinism; its not the world's best kept secret

BTW the forum is called Ask A Calvinist

Elderone · May 3, 2005

Buttermilk said:
Thank you for replying to my question/s. In response to your responses I am not trying to debate so please forgive me if it looks like I am trying to debate I will try and not put my ideas across in a confrontational way

Sorry, yes I was making that assumption although I have known parents to use Sunday School as a baby sitting service

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L

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So have I and wished to make the distinction between those, and the parents that are setting a good example.

Yes and no. If a child reaches 16/18 they are an adult in their own right and should be able to make their own decisions (I am not saying they should not abide by common courtesy), but in personal issues like this it should be a personal decision.

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I stand by my answer. Any offspring living with their family, regardles of age, is still under the direction of the head of the household. If they don't like that they move out.

If they are older 16+ and do not want to be there do you not think that will bring about resentment, possibly against their parents.

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Could be. The parents are still the parents and still in charge.

There is not a problem with the content of the passage above per ce, but as you say it applies to Christians. If the children are not Christians it means nothing to them, and may instil resentment.

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There are many things in life that God requires of Christians, especially head of households, that we may not like. The point is still the person in charge is responsible, whether children like it or not.

BTW the forum is called Ask A Calvinist

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It is, and I am happy to answer.

Buttermilk · May 3, 2005

What is the benefit to these children though if they are not Elect? - Their time could be better spent doing something more productive like studying.

Jon_ · May 3, 2005

Elderone said:
Considering the depravity of us all we don't make choices for God unless we have been given the Gift of Grace. Those who have been given the Gift will continue to attend, and those who have not, and are still under their parents care or housing no matter the age, are to continue attending if that is the parents requirement.

This isn't a contention, just a clarification.

I wanted to point out that I believed unto Christ from my youngest recollections. I accepted him as Lord and Savior since as far back as my memories reach; however, for all of my teenage years and few years after High School, I hated church and didn't want to have anything to do with religion. My elect status wasn't in question, but I certainly did not like going to church. I would have rather stayed at home playing video games, doing nothing. I wasn't living like a Christian, either. I was sinning at will, most of the time without a tinge of conscience. I simply didn't care one way or the other. I was going to do what I wanted to do.

About a year ago the Lord decided he had had enough of that. He was ready to begin using me in his kingdom, and now here I am before you.

I say all that to say this. Just because your child does not want to go to church does not immediately endanger them of being reprobate. Kids are inherently rebellious. Couple that with a sinful nature and hormones that rage out of control, and you have a forumla that only grace can provide an antidote for! Never let yourself become discouraged by your child's disinterest in church. Make them go regardless if they want to be there. Their willingness is irrelevant. We were all unwilling to receive God before he chose us for regeneration, and now look at us.

When it becomes my decision as a parent, there will be no option: you live under my roof, you will honor religion. Election is wholly God's work, but Prov. 22:6 is my responsibility.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Jon_ · May 3, 2005

Buttermilk said:
What is the benefit to these children though if they are not Elect? - Their time could be better spent doing something more productive like studying.

There is nothing more productive than teaching them the ways of the Lord. Nothing. Their willingness is, again, irrelevant.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Buttermilk · May 3, 2005

Thank you for your response Jon_

Why is it productive to the child if the child is not Elect?

HiredGoon · May 3, 2005

Buttermilk said:
Why is it productive to the child if the child is not Elect?

It's not up to us to decide who is elect and who is not. God, according to his sovereign will can use the Christian instruction of their youth to call them later in life.

Buttermilk · May 3, 2005

HiredGoon said:
It's not up to us to decide who is elect and who is not. God, according to his sovereign will can use the Christian instruction of their youth to call them later in life.

I don't subscribe to your doctrine, but I take on board what your are saying. What about those though who aren't "called" later in life, it is a bit unfair to waste their time.

rnmomof7 · May 3, 2005

Buttermilk,

None of us know who is elect and who is not. That is why the gospel is to be preached to all men ( and that includes Sunday School for kids.)Those children may not come to God until the parent has gone to the Lord. God also ordains the time and place

Parents are charged to bring up their children in the admonition of the Lord.

All over the country Christian parents take their children to Sunday School never knowing if they will accept Christ as their savior.. Calvinists are no different. We trust that God will act and save the children. We treat them as members of the covenant family of God .

We take the gospel out into the streets and mission fields, trusting in faith that God will bring the elect to come and hear and respond to the gospel .

As to what value is Sunday school to the non elect, even the non elect benefit from the word and law of God

The Westminister confession says it thusly:

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

Chapter XIX

Of the Law of God

[1] GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ROM 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. ROM 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. GAL 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. JOB 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

[2] JAM 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. ROM 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. DEU 5:32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the Lord your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the Lord spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the Lord gave them unto me. EXO 24:1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.

[3] MAT 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

[4] (HEB 9) HEB 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. GAL 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. COL 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

[5] 1CO 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us. 2CO 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, JUD 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

[6] COL 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. DAN 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. EPH 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.

[7] (EXO 21-22) GEN 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. 1PE 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. MAT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 1CO 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

[8] ROM 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. EPH 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise 1JO 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

[9] JAM 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

[10] MAT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. JAM 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well. ROM 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

[11] ROM 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. GAL 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. ACT 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. ROM 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[12] ROM 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. PSA 119:4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. 5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes! 6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments. 1CO 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. GAL 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulful the lust of the flesh. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[13] ROM 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. ROM 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

[14] JAM 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. ROM 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

[15] GAL 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. ROM 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: ROM 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[16] JAM 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. PSA 119:101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word. 104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

[17] EZR 9:13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this; 14 Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping? PSA 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

[18] (LEV 26) 2CO 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. EPH 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. PSA 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. MAT 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. PSA 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

[19] GAL 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. LUK 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

[20] ROM 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 1PE 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: 9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. 10 For he that ill love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: 11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. PSA 34:12 What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good? 13 Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile. 14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it. 15 The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. 16 The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth. HEB 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

[21] GAL 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

[22] EZE 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. HEB 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. JER 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Elderone · May 3, 2005

Buttermilk said:
I don't subscribe to your doctrine, but I take on board what your are saying. What about those though who aren't "called" later in life, it is a bit unfair to waste their time.

That is not for us to worry about. Our responsibility is to try to carry out God's orders.

Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
sa 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts

The Lord really IS in charge.

Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jon_ · May 3, 2005

Buttermilk said:
Why is it productive to the child if the child is not Elect?

Because it likewise builds faith and character within the one who delivers it. The Gospel is for both the giver and the receiver.

I suppose, all things considered, that it does not avail the child much if he or she will never receive it. But that is hardly for us to know or decide. We will never know God's elect. That is a mystery he holds dearly. Therefore, we are without cause to cease our ministry. (At what point we shake the dust from our heels is a topic of intense contention.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Buttermilk · May 5, 2005

Jon_ said:
Because it likewise builds faith and character within the one who delivers it.

IMHO that is self gratification and is a selfish act towards the receiver who may not want it "inflicted" on them.

I suppose, all things considered, that it does not avail the child much if he or she will never receive it.

Going back to Elderone's comments (with reference to Jon_'s comment above) about children staying at home. Many children stay at home well into their 20s and beyond these days, are you saying that they too should be forced along to church against their will. Certainly by that age (although I would say well below that age) a person has the ability to know whether or not they willingly want to go to church, and therefore no one by that age should be forced.

IMHO if parents were still forcing children in their 20s + to do things that is an unhealthy activity anyway.

Jon_ · May 5, 2005

Buttermilk said:
IMHO that is self gratification and is a selfish act towards the receiver who may not want it "inflicted" on them.

You might consider it "selfish," but it is commanded by Scripture.

Going back to Elderone's comments (with reference to Jon_'s comment above) about children staying at home. Many children stay at home well into their 20s and beyond these days, are you saying that they too should be forced along to church against their will. Certainly by that age (although I would say well below that age) a person has the ability to know whether or not they willingly want to go to church, and therefore no one by that age should be forced.

IMHO if parents were still forcing children in their 20s + to do things that is an unhealthy activity anyway.

A rebellious adult child living with his or her parents is likewise unhealthy. If they refuse to honor the ways that I raised them up, then I refuse them to have them in my home. Respect goes both ways. I have no reason to respect their freedom if they do not respect my rules.

This is all starting to sound entirely too serious, though. The fact is that I will love my children, and love them dearly. I won't be overbearing and authoritative toward them. I will be loving and encouraging. I won't go around giving ulimatums. I will simply lead them on the right path. If push comes to shove, though, the above paragraph summarizes my feelings on the subject.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Buttermilk · May 5, 2005

So you would throw them out if they refused to go to church with you Jon_?

Elderone · May 5, 2005

This passage has to do with Church Officer qualifications but is equally applicable to the head of the Christian household.

1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

This is John Gill's commentary of the passage.

having his children in subjection with all gravity; keeping a good decorum in his family; obliging his children to observe his orders, and especially the rules of God's word; and not as Eli, who did not use his authority, or lay his commands upon his sons, nor restrain them from evil, or severely reprove them for their sins, but neglected them, and was too mild and gentle with them; #1Sa 2:23 3:13 but like Abraham, who not only taught, but commanded his children and his household, to keep the way of the Lord;

Most in our society don't practice this but that doesn't mean were doing it correctly.

Jon_ · May 5, 2005

Buttermilk said:
So you would throw them out if they refused to go to church with you Jon_?

Not necessarily because they didn't go to church with me, or even to the same church, but I would require them to respect my wishes. If they were to become unchurched, for instance, if they started attending another church because there is a cute girl or boy there, which I can obviously understand, but then stop attending that church, I would expect them to find another home, or continue attending with me again.

If they decided not to return to church for whatever reason, I would lovingly explain to them the virtues of church-attendance and the importance of honoring God with faithful worship. If they then flatly refused to attend, I would tell them that it is not optional.

Believe me when I say I would exhaust every option and recourse that I had available to me before issuing an ultimatum. I would also pray fiercely over the issue. But the way I feel in my heart is this: I would not permit open rebellion to religion in my household. That includes the refusal to honor God through some form of Christian fellowship. I would compromise on a Bible Study, or a worship service, or some other form of congregation, but I would simply not allow them to remain at home, disavowing their responsibility toward God.

The short answer: I would try absolutely everything else first, but, if it came down to it, yes, I would throw them out.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Jon_ · May 5, 2005

Elderone said:
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

This is John Gill's commentary of the passage.

having his children in subjection with all gravity; keeping a good decorum in his family; obliging his children to observe his orders, and especially the rules of God's word; and not as Eli, who did not use his authority, or lay his commands upon his sons, nor restrain them from evil, or severely reprove them for their sins, but neglected them, and was too mild and gentle with them; #1Sa 2:23 3:13 but like Abraham, who not only taught, but commanded his children and his household, to keep the way of the Lord;

Most in our society don't practice this but that doesn't mean were doing it correctly.

Buttermilk · May 5, 2005

Jon_ said:
The short answer: I would try absolutely everything else first, but, if it came down to it, yes, I would throw them out.

Jon

Throw your son or daughter out on the street - what a Christian attitude - what attitude does that potray to outsiders looking in (IMHO) but you are as entitled to your opinion as I mine.

You would rather they wandered the streets and potentially get into a life of crime - do you think God would really want you to do that? - just curious

Second Question :D

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