• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

SDA and the New Jerusalem

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,682
6,105
Visit site
✟1,046,087.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Seventh-day Adventist fundamental belief number 27 discusses the millennium and the End of Sin

https://www.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/ADV-28Beliefs2020.pdf

27 The Millennium and the End of Sin
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.


The bolded section does not match up with the Scriptural account. The New Jerusalem is only seen descending in the new heaven and new earth, after the old earth has passed away.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


 
Last edited:

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,682
6,105
Visit site
✟1,046,087.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am including some of the elements of the basic disagreement at the beginning to help the reader understand the conversation.

BobRyan said:
1. Earth is desolate for 1000 years.
2. One thousand years end...
3. New Jerusalem comes down
4. The wicked are raised and surround the camp of the saints
5. The great white throne judgment
6. Lake of fire, earth destroyed, New Jerusalem not in Lake of fire.
7. Earth made new
8. New Jerusalem comes down to the New Earth.


Bob has re-arranged and omitted various items that occur following the 1k years in his timeline, compared to the Scriptural timeline. The following chart illustrates:



BobRyan said:

Rev 19 shows us that nothing but a desolate earth is left after the appearing of Christ in Rev 19

Rev 19:
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 19-20 does not show that only a desolate earth is left after Jesus' appearance in chapter 19.

The angel summons the birds to a particular place to gather for the battle:

Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.”

This is then explained, as John sees the armies of the kings of the earth also gathered to one place to resist Jesus. This is why the list above includes kings, mighty men, captains, horses, horsemen, and all the others, slave and free, among the armies that were gathered at the battle. The angel announces ahead of time the outcome of the battle, the slaying of the armies gathered to resist the Lord.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

From these armies two members are captured, the beast and the false prophet, which are placed in the lake of fire, and the rest of the members of the armies are slain:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

The birds now eat of the bodies of those in the armies that were slain.

However, while these kings and their armies were slain, the earth is not said to be empty at this time.

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Satan is bound in the pit so that he might not deceive the nations, which are still present. But they are reigned over by Christ:


Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The nations are still there at the end of the 1k years as well

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.


Moreover, it is only after the new heavens and new earth are seen, and the old earth is passed away, that the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The bolded section does not match up with the Scriptural account. The New Jerusalem is only seen descending in the new heaven and new earth, after the old earth has passed away.

Actually the claims do indeed match up with the scriptures. It is the view of your OP that does not match up with scripture. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding of what is being said here. Revelation 21 is talking about the new Jerusalem descending from heaven after the millennium (1000 years) and the making of the new heavens and the new earth. At the resurrection of the wicked after the new Jerusalem has descended in the new heavens and new earth. The resurrection of the wicked takes place after this time and the "cleansing" being referred to here is the removal of all the resurrected wicked from the earth. Revelation 21 is only a description of the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven after the re-making of the new heavens and the new earth and the description of it. The wicked never enter this city they are resurrected, surround the city and destroyed.

...................

27 The Millennium and the End of Sin
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. The "cleansing" of the earth here is not referring the re-making of the earth but the removal of the wicked from it.

...................

Making of the new heavens and the new earth, the second resurrection and the "cleansing" of the earth from the resurrected wicked


Revelation 21:1-27
[1], And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[2], And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[3], And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4], And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[5], And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
[6], And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
[7], He that overcomes shall inherit all things;1 and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
[8], But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
[9], And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
[10], And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
[11], Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
[12], And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
[13], On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
[14], And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
[15], And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
[16], And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
[17], And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
[18], And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
[19], And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
[20], The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
[21], And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
[22], And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
[23], And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
[24], And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
[25], And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
[26], And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
[2]7, And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
...................

Your misrepresenting or have a misunderstanding of what is being said in the 27th Fundamental with the application of the words "cleanse" which is being applied to the removal of the wicked after the second resurrection and the second death as shown in Revelation 21:8 not the remaking of the new heavens and earth.

Take Care

..............

UPDATE: A detailed scripture review and response to the content of this OP has been provided in a new thread linked below...

AN SDA VIEW ON WHAT HAPPENS TO THE LIVING WICKED AT THE 2ND COMING AND THE MILLENNIUM

...................
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,682
6,105
Visit site
✟1,046,087.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married


The New Jerusalem descends from heaven after the making of the new heavens and new earth.

Adventists claim it happens before, which is not in line with Scripture.


At the resurrection of the wicked after the new Jerusalem has descended in the new heavens and new earth.

The resurrection of the wicked is not in the new heavens and new earth. And the new heavens and new earth are not described until after the resurrection of the wicked and their receiving their reward.


The wicked are destroyed along with the current earth:

2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.


The new heavens and new earth are where righteousness dwells:

2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
2Pe 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.



Exactly, the new heavens and new earth don't have the wicked. THey are in the lake of fire. But that was all already described in the previous chapter, before the new heavens and new earth.



Yes again to Scripture. And it disagrees with the Adventist statement that the New Jerusalem descends earlier, in the old earth.

Your misrepresenting or have a misunderstanding of what is being said

I am noting what Scripture said, and I am noting that the Scripture you posted also shows the problem for you. The New Jerusalem does not descend until the old earth is passed away.

The resurrection of the wicked is pictured in chapter 20 before that happens.

2 Peter makes it plain that the wicked are destroyed with the first earth, and not in the new heavens and new earth.

The new earth is the home of righteousness.

And Revelation 20 and 21 show the same. The new heavens and earth and new Jerusalem do not appear until after the resurrection, and the casting of the wicked into the lake of fire.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married

No there is no problem for me. You misunderstanding the use of the word "cleanse" and how it is applied in the 27th Fundamental to Revelation 21 and applying a view that no one believes to it. Sorry I do not have anymore time for people misrepresenting our understanding of the scriptures. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. We all answer only to God come judgment day according to Jesus for the words of God we accept or reject *John 12:47-48.

..............

UPDATE: A detailed scripture review and response to the content of this OP has been provided in a new thread linked below...


AN SDA VIEW ON WHAT HAPPENS TO THE LIVING WICKED AT THE 2ND COMING AND THE MILLENNIUM

...................

Take Care
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,682
6,105
Visit site
✟1,046,087.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married



There is no misunderstanding of "cleansed". Your statement changes the order from Scripture.


At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth.


Per the fundamental the Holy City descends along with Jesus from heaven to earth. THEN the unrighteous dead are resurrected. Then satan and his angels surround the city. Then the fire comes down and cleanses. In other words, you have the New Jerusalem coming down before the old earth has passed.

That is not the order in Scripture. In Scripture the New Jerusalem comes down when the New Heavens and New earth are there, after the old earth has passed away.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,682
6,105
Visit site
✟1,046,087.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry I do not have anymore time for people misrepresenting our understanding of the scriptures.

I am not misrepresenting your church statement. I posted the statement. But let's make this completely simple if you claim I misunderstand things.

Which happens first in the Adventist understanding?

- the New Jerusalem coming from heaven
- the casting of the wicked into the lake of fire.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The scriptures regarding the surrounding of the saints do not state the New Jerusalem is involved.

The short summary


4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur


The expansion with more detail.


Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:
. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Rev 19 shows us that nothing but a desolate earth is left after the appearing of Christ in Rev 19

Rev 19:
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

====================================
All who are not saved - are destroyed as we see in 2 Thess 1

2 Thess 1:
6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day

=====================

Because of the rapture that also happens at that time 1 Thess 4:13-18 - this leaves earth with no humans

Jeremiah 4: "I looked and behold there was no human" only destroyed cities

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

========================


Jer 25:33
33 “Those put to death by the Lord on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Ez 32:4-5
I will leave you on the land;
I will hurl you on the open field.
And I will cause all the birds of the sky to nest on you,
And I will satisfy the animals of the whole earth with you.
5 I will lay your flesh on the mountains
And fill the valleys with your refuse.


Zeph 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Which happens first in the Adventist understanding?

- the New Jerusalem coming from heaven
- the casting of the wicked into the lake of fire.

1. Earth is desolate for 1000 years.
2. One thousand years end...
3. New Jerusalem comes down
4. The wicked are raised and surround the camp of the saints
5. The great white throne judgment
6. Lake of fire, earth destroyed, New Jerusalem not in Lake of fire.
7. Earth made new
8. New Jerusalem comes down to the New Earth.



What Adventists Believe about the Millennium and the End of Sin - Adventist.org

Belief 27: The Millennium and the End of Sin
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

Belief 28: The New Earth
On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; 2 Peter 3:13; Rev. 11:15; 21:1-7; 22:1-5.)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,682
6,105
Visit site
✟1,046,087.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1. Earth is desolate for 1000 years.
2. One thousand years end...
3. New Jerusalem comes down

The Bible doesn't say that the New Jerusalem comes down at this time. It only shows it coming down in the new earth.
4. The wicked are raised and surround the camp of the saints

The Scriptures do not speak of a resurrection until verse 13. It does not say the resurrected wicked surround the camp, rather it says the nations surround the camp. The same nations that satan could not deceive while he was locked in the pit of the abyss are still there at the end of the 1k years, When he came out they were still there.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,


You change the order of the various events as stated in Scripture, and add to them. Upon what basis do you do that?


BobRyan said:
Rev 19 shows us that nothing but a desolate earth is left after the appearing of Christ in Rev 19


Revelation 19-20 does not show that only a desolate earth is left after Jesus' appearance in chapter 19.

The angel summons the birds to a particular place to gather for the battle:

Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.”


This is then explained, as John sees the armies of the kings of the earth also gathered to one place to resist Jesus. This is why the list above includes kings, mighty men, captains, horses, horsemen, and all the others, slave and free, among the armies that were gathered at the battle. The angel announces ahead of time the outcome of the battle, the slaying of the armies gathered to resist the Lord.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.


From these armies two members are captured, the beast and the false prophet, which are placed in the lake of fire, and the rest of the members of the armies are slain:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.


The birds now eat of the bodies of those in the armies that were slain.

However, while these kings and their armies were slain, the earth is not said to be empty at this time.

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.


Satan is bound in the pit so that he might not deceive the nations, which are still present. But they are reigned over by Christ:

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

The nations are still there at the end of the 1k years as well

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.


BobRyan said:

All who are not saved - are destroyed as we see in 2 Thess 1

All who are saved are eventually destroyed. However, this does not prove a desolate earth with no people after Rev. 19, as is seen by the text of Rev. 20. The nations are still there. And the text in 1 Thessalonians summarizes all of the events from the coming of Jesus to the final destruction of the wicked, which happens after the 1k years:

2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

This passage indeed shows the suffering of the saints at the hand of the wicked being relieved when He comes on that day. But the destruction of the wicked in this passage is described as "punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord", which even you do not see as happening until after the 1k years.


Regarding Jeremiah 4, you have divorced the passage from its context, and inserted it into Rev. 19-20, even though Rev. 19-20 do not quote or reference this at all.

The context makes clear it is speaking of earlier events, where the Lord brings judgment from the north against Judah:

Jer 4:5 Declare in Judah, and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say, “Blow the trumpet through the land; cry aloud and say, ‘Assemble, and let us go into the fortified cities!’
Jer 4:6 Raise a standard toward Zion, flee for safety, stay not, for I bring disaster from the north, and great destruction.


This is continuing the theme that started even in chapter 1:

Jer 1:13 The word of the LORD came to me a second time, saying, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see a boiling pot, facing away from the north.”
Jer 1:14 Then the LORD said to me, “Out of the north disaster shall be let loose upon all the inhabitants of the land.
Jer 1:15 For behold, I am calling all the tribes of the kingdoms of the north, declares the LORD, and they shall come, and every one shall set his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, against all its walls all around and against all the cities of Judah.
Jer 1:16 And I will declare my judgments against them, for all their evil in forsaking me. They have made offerings to other gods and worshiped the works of their own hands.


This power from the North is going to lay waste to the cities:

Jer 4:7 A lion has gone up from his thicket, a destroyer of nations has set out; he has gone out from his place to make your land a waste; your cities will be ruins without inhabitant.
Jer 4:8 For this put on sackcloth, lament and wail, for the fierce anger of the LORD has not turned back from us.”


The cities in Judah will be laid waste because of the anger of the Lord, who brings armies from the north.

This is referring to the soon coming judgment brought against Judah by Babylon.

Jer 4:9 “In that day, declares the LORD, courage shall fail both king and officials. The priests shall be appalled and the prophets astounded.”
Jer 4:10 Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD, surely you have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘It shall be well with you,’ whereas the sword has reached their very life.”
Jer 4:11 At that time it will be said to this people and to Jerusalem, “A hot wind from the bare heights in the desert toward the daughter of my people, not to winnow or cleanse,
Jer 4:12 a wind too full for this comes for me. Now it is I who speak in judgment upon them.”
Jer 4:13 Behold, he comes up like clouds; his chariots like the whirlwind; his horses are swifter than eagles— woe to us, for we are ruined!
Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash your heart from evil, that you may be saved. How long shall your wicked thoughts lodge within you?
Jer 4:15 For a voice declares from Dan and proclaims trouble from Mount Ephraim.
Jer 4:16 Warn the nations that he is coming; announce to Jerusalem, “Besiegers come from a distant land; they shout against the cities of Judah.


A power that besieges, again a reference to Babylon. It does not describe the judgment in Rev. 19. There is no siege there.


Jer 4:17 Like keepers of a field are they against her all around, because she has rebelled against me, declares the LORD.
Jer 4:18 Your ways and your deeds have brought this upon you. This is your doom, and it is bitter; it has reached your very heart.”


They will be surrounded. This is happening because of their deeds.

Jer 4:19 My anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain! Oh the walls of my heart! My heart is beating wildly; I cannot keep silent, for I hear the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
Jer 4:20 Crash follows hard on crash; the whole land is laid waste. Suddenly my tents are laid waste, my curtains in a moment.
Jer 4:21 How long must I see the standard and hear the sound of the trumpet?
Jer 4:22 “For my people are foolish; they know me not; they are stupid children; they have no understanding. They are ‘wise’—in doing evil! But how to do good they know not.”


Crash upon crash, the whole land laid waste, describing the conquest of the cities.

Now you claim the following verses are a contextual island and speak of the 1k years. But that doesn't follow at all.

Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro.
Jer 4:25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, and all the birds of the air had fled.
Jer 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a desert, and all its cities were laid in ruins before the LORD, before his fierce anger.


He uses language of the pre-creation earth to emphasize the extent of the devastation. The cities are destroyed, as foretold at the beginning of the chapter. It is showing the aftermath of the siege of the cities.

Jer 4:27 For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation; yet I will not make a full end.
Jer 4:28 “For this the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above be dark; for I have spoken; I have purposed; I have not relented, nor will I turn back.”


The heavens and earth are said to mourn because of the judgment poured out. But He will not make a full end.

Jer 4:29 At the noise of horseman and archer every city takes to flight; they enter thickets; they climb among rocks; all the cities are forsaken, and no man dwells in them.


The cities are abandoned as it is seen the forces are overwhelming.

Jer 4:30 And you, O desolate one, what do you mean that you dress in scarlet, that you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold, that you enlarge your eyes with paint? In vain you beautify yourself. Your lovers despise you; they seek your life.
Jer 4:31 For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor, anguish as of one giving birth to her first child, the cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath, stretching out her hands, “Woe is me! I am fainting before murderers.”


This theme has been stated before by the prophets. God's idolatrous people who turned to the gods of the nations are now being destroyed by the adulterous lovers they turned to instead of the Lord.

So Jeremiah makes sense in its own context. But you have tried to apply it to Rev. 19-20, even though Jeremiah 4 is not quoted or referenced there, and the details of Rev. 19-20 do not match up with your take on these verses from Jeremiah 4.

There is no statement of destruction of cities in Rev. 19-120. There is no statement of a desolate earth. In fact, when Satan is let out of his prison there are not only nations still there, but there is a city that is intact, not desolate, and it is surrounded.

And to explain this you postulate it is the new Jerusalem. But the New Jerusalem is only described in the text as coming down in the new earth.

So because you can't explain anything in 19-20 in line with what the text actually says, you base all of your argument on an out of context proof text, and even that doesn't match what Rev. 19-20 says.



 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Number 8 is the only coming down of the New Jerusalem stated in Scripture. You change the order of the various events, and add to them. And upon what basis do you do that?

first clue is that a desolate Earth does not have the camp of the saints, the holy city, the wicked alive and ready to surround the camp of the saints...

in fact it has "no human"

Jeremiah 4
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

So all of that has to be put in place after the 1000 years ends.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,682
6,105
Visit site
✟1,046,087.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
first clue is that a desolate Earth does not have the camp of the saints, the holy city, the wicked alive and ready to surround the camp of the saints...

The earth after the 1k years does have those per Rev 20:

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.


Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


No mention is yet made of the New Jerusalem coming down. And it is not mentioned until Rev. 21. So you have just inserted it.


Regarding Jeremiah 4:

You have divorced this passage from its context, and inserted it into Rev. 19-20, even though Rev. 19-20 do not quote or reference this at all.

The context makes clear it is speaking of earlier events, where the Lord brings judgment from the north against Judah:

Jer 4:5 Declare in Judah, and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say, “Blow the trumpet through the land; cry aloud and say, ‘Assemble, and let us go into the fortified cities!’
Jer 4:6 Raise a standard toward Zion, flee for safety, stay not, for I bring disaster from the north, and great destruction.


This is continuing the theme that started even in chapter 1:

Jer 1:13 The word of the LORD came to me a second time, saying, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see a boiling pot, facing away from the north.”
Jer 1:14 Then the LORD said to me, “Out of the north disaster shall be let loose upon all the inhabitants of the land.
Jer 1:15 For behold, I am calling all the tribes of the kingdoms of the north, declares the LORD, and they shall come, and every one shall set his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, against all its walls all around and against all the cities of Judah.
Jer 1:16 And I will declare my judgments against them, for all their evil in forsaking me. They have made offerings to other gods and worshiped the works of their own hands.


This power from the North is going to lay waste to the cities:

Jer 4:7 A lion has gone up from his thicket, a destroyer of nations has set out; he has gone out from his place to make your land a waste; your cities will be ruins without inhabitant.
Jer 4:8 For this put on sackcloth, lament and wail, for the fierce anger of the LORD has not turned back from us.”


The cities in Judah will be laid waste because of the anger of the Lord, who brings armies from the north.

This is referring to the soon coming judgment brought against Judah by Babylon.

Jer 4:9 “In that day, declares the LORD, courage shall fail both king and officials. The priests shall be appalled and the prophets astounded.”
Jer 4:10 Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD, surely you have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘It shall be well with you,’ whereas the sword has reached their very life.”
Jer 4:11 At that time it will be said to this people and to Jerusalem, “A hot wind from the bare heights in the desert toward the daughter of my people, not to winnow or cleanse,
Jer 4:12 a wind too full for this comes for me. Now it is I who speak in judgment upon them.”
Jer 4:13 Behold, he comes up like clouds; his chariots like the whirlwind; his horses are swifter than eagles— woe to us, for we are ruined!
Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash your heart from evil, that you may be saved. How long shall your wicked thoughts lodge within you?
Jer 4:15 For a voice declares from Dan and proclaims trouble from Mount Ephraim.
Jer 4:16 Warn the nations that he is coming; announce to Jerusalem, “Besiegers come from a distant land; they shout against the cities of Judah.


A power that besieges, again a reference to Babylon. It does not describe the judgment in Rev. 19. There is no siege there.


Jer 4:17 Like keepers of a field are they against her all around, because she has rebelled against me, declares the LORD.
Jer 4:18 Your ways and your deeds have brought this upon you. This is your doom, and it is bitter; it has reached your very heart.”


They will be surrounded. This is happening because of their deeds.

Jer 4:19 My anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain! Oh the walls of my heart! My heart is beating wildly; I cannot keep silent, for I hear the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
Jer 4:20 Crash follows hard on crash; the whole land is laid waste. Suddenly my tents are laid waste, my curtains in a moment.
Jer 4:21 How long must I see the standard and hear the sound of the trumpet?
Jer 4:22 “For my people are foolish; they know me not; they are stupid children; they have no understanding. They are ‘wise’—in doing evil! But how to do good they know not.”


Crash upon crash, the whole land laid waste, describing the conquest of the cities.

Now you claim the following verses are a contextual island and speak of the 1k years. But that doesn't follow at all.

Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro.
Jer 4:25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, and all the birds of the air had fled.
Jer 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a desert, and all its cities were laid in ruins before the LORD, before his fierce anger.


He uses language of the pre-creation earth to emphasize the extent of the devastation. The cities are destroyed, as foretold at the beginning of the chapter. It is showing the aftermath of the sieging of the cities.


Jer 4:27 For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation; yet I will not make a full end.
Jer 4:28 “For this the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above be dark; for I have spoken; I have purposed; I have not relented, nor will I turn back.”


The heavens and earth are said to mourn because of the judgment poured out. But He will not make a full end.

Jer 4:29 At the noise of horseman and archer every city takes to flight; they enter thickets; they climb among rocks; all the cities are forsaken, and no man dwells in them.

The cities are abandoned as it is seen the forces are overwhelming.


Jer 4:30 And you, O desolate one, what do you mean that you dress in scarlet, that you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold, that you enlarge your eyes with paint? In vain you beautify yourself. Your lovers despise you; they seek your life.
Jer 4:31 For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor, anguish as of one giving birth to her first child, the cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath, stretching out her hands, “Woe is me! I am fainting before murderers.”


This theme has been stated before by the prophets. God's idolatrous people who turned to the gods of the nations are now being destroyed by the adulterous lovers they turned to instead of the Lord.

So Jeremiah makes sense in its own context. But you have tried to apply it to Rev. 19-20, even though Jeremiah 4 is not quoted or referenced there, and the details of Rev. 19-20 do not match up with your take on these verses from Jeremiah 4.

There is no statement of destruction of cities in Rev. 19-120. There is no statement of a desolate earth. When Satan is let out of his prison there are not only nations still there, but there is a city that is intact.

So because you can't explain anything in 19-20 in line with what the text actually says, you base all of your argument on an out of context proof text, and even that doesn't match what Rev. 19-20 says.

I will explain the other OT texts you reference shortly
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The earth after the 1k years does have those per Rev 20:

Not if the "rest are killed" as Rev 19 says
Not if the earth is "desolate" with "no humans" as Jer 4 says
Not if all the saints are raptured as 1 Thess 4:13-18 says and all the lost are slain as 2 Thess 1 says.

======================


Jeremiah 4
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

So all of that has to be put in place after the 1000 years ends

a desolate Earth does not have the camp of the saints, the holy city, the wicked alive and ready to surround the camp of the saints...

in fact it has "no human"

==========================

It fits Rev 19 - perfectly

where once again we don't need to downsize Rev 19
  • from "all people" to "some people"
  • , and downsize the "rest were killed" into "the rest of some of the people were killed"
  • or "the rest of the army that is not -- all people"
And that is because there is "no human" and there is only ruined cities on earth after that event Jer 4:23-26

Rev 19
"the rest" includes all that is left over - in Rev 19 -- so also "the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

==============

Which is the case as well for 2 Thess 1 - where all unbelievers are slain at Christ's appearing -

2 Thess 1:
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,682
6,105
Visit site
✟1,046,087.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Rev 19 shows us that nothing about a desolate earth is left after the appearing of Christ in Rev 19

It is not in fact clear that Rev. 19 is speaking of destroying all people, as the context is the armies. They are gathered, the birds are gathered, two of the members of the armies, the beast and the false prophet are captured, and the rest of the armies are killed.

Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.”
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.


The armies were gathered in one place and so were the birds who eat them in one place.

Now you objected to a poster in another thread that mentioned that it lists classes of people, but that is exactly what it does. All kinds of people, kings, captains, might men, horses, horsemen, all slave and free, small and great. These are all the various people in the armies gathered against Christ. And they are all destroyed. It even includes the horses because they were part of the armies.

All who are not saved - are destroyed as we see in 2 Thess 1

Already addressed. The text says:

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

While elements of the passage refer to the time of His coming, this eternal destruction of the wicked refers to the final judgment where they are shut out from God's presence. Even you admit the eternal destruction of the wicked is after the 1k years.

Because of the rapture that also happens at that time 1 Thess 4:13-18 - this leaves earth with no humans

Except that it does not in fact state that we go to heaven in 1 Thess. 4. It says we meet Him in the air. It does not say whether we go to heaven, come to earth, etc.

Combine this with no reference to Jesus returning to heaven in Revelation 19-20, He is said to be reigning, and there are still nations on the earth when Satan is released from his prison (which is not the earth, and he goes up across the earth after he is released), this presents a lot of differences from what you claim and what the Scripture text says.

Now regarding your claim that Jeremiah 25 shows that the earth is without inhabitant at the time after Rev. 19, once again this passage in Jer. 25 is talking about events in his time. And if anything they note that there were a number of nations punished by the Lord at that time, as noted earlier.

Jer 25:15 Thus the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: “Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it.
Jer 25:16 They shall drink and stagger and be crazed because of the sword that I am sending among them.”
Jer 25:17 So I took the cup from the LORD's hand, and made all the nations to whom the LORD sent me drink it:
Jer 25:18 Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and officials, to make them a desolation and a waste, a hissing and a curse, as at this day;
Jer 25:19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his servants, his officials, all his people,
Jer 25:20 and all the mixed tribes among them; all the kings of the land of Uz and all the kings of the land of the Philistines (Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod);
Jer 25:21 Edom, Moab, and the sons of Ammon;
Jer 25:22 all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings of the coastland across the sea;
Jer 25:23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who cut the corners of their hair;
Jer 25:24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed tribes who dwell in the desert;
Jer 25:25 all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of Media;
Jer 25:26 all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another, and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And after them the king of Babylon shall drink.
Jer 25:27 “Then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Drink, be drunk and vomit, fall and rise no more, because of the sword that I am sending among you.’
Jer 25:28 “And if they refuse to accept the cup from your hand to drink, then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts: You must drink!
Jer 25:29 For behold, I begin to work disaster at the city that is called by my name, and shall you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth, declares the LORD of hosts.’
Jer 25:30 “You, therefore, shall prophesy against them all these words, and say to them: “‘The LORD will roar from on high, and from his holy habitation utter his voice; he will roar mightily against his fold, and shout, like those who tread grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
Jer 25:31 The clamor will resound to the ends of the earth, for the LORD has an indictment against the nations; he is entering into judgment with all flesh, and the wicked he will put to the sword, declares the LORD.’
Jer 25:32 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: Behold, disaster is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest is stirring from the farthest parts of the earth!
Jer 25:33 “And those pierced by the LORD on that day shall extend from one end of the earth to the other. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall be dung on the surface of the ground.
Jer 25:34 “Wail, you shepherds, and cry out, and roll in ashes, you lords of the flock, for the days of your slaughter and dispersion have come, and you shall fall like a choice vessel.
Jer 25:35 No refuge will remain for the shepherds, nor escape for the lords of the flock.
Jer 25:36 A voice—the cry of the shepherds, and the wail of the lords of the flock! For the LORD is laying waste their pasture,
Jer 25:37 and the peaceful folds are devastated because of the fierce anger of the LORD.
Jer 25:38 Like a lion he has left his lair, for their land has become a waste because of the sword of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger.”



He mentions nations involved, mentions that it is from the north, mentions that He is summoning the sword to do his bidding, etc.

It speaks of the land becoming waste, but again we noted that does not happen in Rev. 19-20, rather the nations are still there at the end of the 1k years, and a city still intact.

Once again the context does not support you. But it does show that the judgment carried out that Jeremiah was to proclaim was extensive, and involved a number of nations in his day. Some of which are not still around.

Your contention that Ezekiel 32 shows an empty earth is more of the same.

Eze 32:1 In the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 32:2 “Son of man, raise a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him: “You consider yourself a lion of the nations, but you are like a dragon in the seas; you burst forth in your rivers, trouble the waters with your feet, and foul their rivers.
Eze 32:3 Thus says the Lord GOD: I will throw my net over you with a host of many peoples, and they will haul you up in my dragnet.
Eze 32:4 And I will cast you on the ground; on the open field I will fling you, and will cause all the birds of the heavens to settle on you, and I will gorge the beasts of the whole earth with you.
Eze 32:5 I will strew your flesh upon the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcass.
Eze 32:6 I will drench the land even to the mountains with your flowing blood, and the ravines will be full of you.
Eze 32:7 When I blot you out, I will cover the heavens and make their stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light.
Eze 32:8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over you, and put darkness on your land, declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 32:9 “I will trouble the hearts of many peoples, when I bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries that you have not known.
Eze 32:10 I will make many peoples appalled at you, and the hair of their kings shall bristle with horror because of you, when I brandish my sword before them. They shall tremble every moment, every one for his own life, on the day of your downfall.
Eze 32:11 “For thus says the Lord GOD: The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon you.
Eze 32:12 I will cause your multitude to fall by the swords of mighty ones, all of them most ruthless of nations. “They shall bring to ruin the pride of Egypt, and all its multitude shall perish.
Eze 32:13 I will destroy all its beasts from beside many waters; and no foot of man shall trouble them anymore, nor shall the hoofs of beasts trouble them.
Eze 32:14 Then I will make their waters clear, and cause their rivers to run like oil, declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 32:15 When I make the land of Egypt desolate, and when the land is desolate of all that fills it, when I strike down all who dwell in it, then they will know that I am the LORD.
Eze 32:16 This is a lamentation that shall be chanted; the daughters of the nations shall chant it; over Egypt, and over all her multitude, shall they chant it, declares the Lord GOD.”
Eze 32:17 In the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 32:18 “Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and send them down, her and the daughters of majestic nations, to the world below, to those who have gone down to the pit:
Eze 32:19 ‘Whom do you surpass in beauty? Go down and be laid to rest with the uncircumcised.’
Eze 32:20 They shall fall amid those who are slain by the sword. Egypt is delivered to the sword; drag her away, and all her multitudes.
Eze 32:21 The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: ‘They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’
Eze 32:22 “Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword,
Eze 32:23 whose graves are set in the uttermost parts of the pit; and her company is all around her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living.
Eze 32:24 “Elam is there, and all her multitude around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised into the world below, who spread their terror in the land of the living; and they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit.
Eze 32:25 They have made her a bed among the slain with all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for terror of them was spread in the land of the living, and they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit; they are placed among the slain.
Eze 32:26 “Meshech-Tubal is there, and all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for they spread their terror in the land of the living.
Eze 32:27 And they do not lie with the mighty, the fallen from among the uncircumcised, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones; for the terror of the mighty men was in the land of the living.
Eze 32:28 But as for you, you shall be broken and lie among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword.
Eze 32:29 “Edom is there, her kings and all her princes, who for all their might are laid with those who are killed by the sword; they lie with the uncircumcised, with those who go down to the pit.
Eze 32:30 “The princes of the north are there, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who have gone down in shame with the slain, for all the terror that they caused by their might; they lie uncircumcised with those who are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with those who go down to the pit.
Eze 32:31 “When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 32:32 For I spread terror in the land of the living; and he shall be laid to rest among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord GOD.”

Egypt was laid waste by Babylon.

Will address Zephaniah shortly.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It is not in fact clear that Rev. 19 is speaking of destroying all people,

"the rest" includes all that is left over - in Rev 19 -- so also "the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Now you objected to a poster in another thread that mentioned that it lists classes of people,

It does not say "all types of people" or "all classes"

Just as John 12:32 says I will draw all -- and not "I will draw all types"
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,682
6,105
Visit site
✟1,046,087.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not if the "rest are killed" as Rev 19 says

Sorry, but it says the nations are there, even if you wish it didn't:


Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.


And the "rest" are the rest of the army.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

The rest were the rest of the army after the beast and false prophet were dealt with.

None of your explanations of Revelation 19-21 are matching the text.

You claim Zephaniah 1:18 indicates an empty earth after Rev. 19. Some of the context speaks of events in that day, and judgment on Jerusalem.

However, the part you highlight may indeed point forward. But it refers to the earth being consumed by the fire of his jealousy, and all the inhabitants being consumed.

Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them on the day of the wrath of the LORD. In the fire of his jealousy, all the earth shall be consumed; for a full and sudden end he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.

This again then would refer the final destruction of the wicked and the old earth as Peter speaks of in similar terms:

2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

So this does not show a desolate earth after Revelation 19. And Revelation 20 makes that clear from the reference to satan being locked up so he cannot deceive the nations, and the nations still being there when he comes out.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, but it says the nations

It only says that AFTER it tells us that "the rest did NOT come to life until AFTER the 1000 years are completed.. and then informs us that AFTER the 1000 years are completed the nations are once again there.

Exegesis demands that we not skim past these details..

the "rest are killed" as Rev 19 says
the earth is "desolate" with "no humans" as Jer 4 says
the saints are raptured as 1 Thess 4:13-18 says and all the lost are slain as 2 Thess 1 says.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,682
6,105
Visit site
✟1,046,087.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Except it doesn't say all "people in Greek", It says all, slave and free, small and great, and the text indicates it is in the armies. It describes the various types of people in the armies, including the horses.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,346
11,903
Georgia
✟1,093,084.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It does not say "all types of people" or "all classes"

Just as John 12:32 says I will draw all -- and not "I will draw all types"

Except it doesn't say all "people in Greek", It says all,

well there we have that same "insert types" idea showing up
 
Upvote 0