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SDA and Israel

FaithfulPilgrim

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How do the SDA see Israel and Zionism?

It's something I'm curious about as IIRC, Adventists don't believe in dispensationalism. Would you be historic "post-trib" premillennialists?

The SDA is one of the denominations I'm looking into. I have had some experience with the SDA as used to occasionally attend an SDA church and went to an SDA run private school.
 

BobRyan

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It's something I'm curious about as IIRC, Adventists don't believe in dispensationalism. Would you be historic "post-trib" premillennialists?

What is IIRC? "Image and Identity Research Collective"??

We are post trib premill - but we do not believe in the "big bounce" where saints fly up in the air and the float softly back to earth at the 2nd coming. Rather we believe the saints are raptured up to God and taken to heaven at the 2nd coming "I go to prepare a place for you...I will come again and receive you to myself"

We use the historical grammatical method of Bible interpretation - hermeneutic

We are neither pretereist or futurist - but are historicist in our approach to eschatology and prophecy

Romans 2 and 9 makes the case for JEWS and Israel as follows --

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.


You can start with classic "Seventh-day Baptist" and then build from there to get the SDA definition.

In Feb 2005 Christianity Today refers to Seventh-day Adventists as the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct...ts-can-ben-carson-church-stay-separatist.html

see this thread -

Nov 4, 2015 #1
 
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BobRyan

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How do the SDA see Israel and Zionism?

.

We stick with the Bible on this one.

Romans 2
26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Paul had endless compassion and efforts for evangelism directed toward his unbelieving Jewish brothers - yet he never downplayed the seriousness of the position that they had put themselves in.


1 Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.


===============================

Matt 23

. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Lament over Jerusalem

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Daniel 9
24 `Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.

==============================
Seal up, fill up the measure

Matt 23. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

Dan 9 24 `Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins,


1 Thess 2
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

===========================================
Acts 3
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. 14 But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.

Acts 4
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people, 9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone.

Acts 5
27 When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, 28 saying, “We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” 29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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How do the SDA see Israel and Zionism?

It's something I'm curious about as IIRC, Adventists don't believe in dispensationalism. Would you be historic "post-trib" premillennialists?

The SDA is one of the denominations I'm looking into. I have had some experience with the SDA as used to occasionally attend an SDA church and went to an SDA run private school.
Zionism if the false belief system that usurped Judaism by the converted Kazars during the dark ages. 90%+ of "Jews today are not Sephardic but Ashkenazi... note the suffix to their name 'nazi'
Zionism is a political movement that controls the religious... the beast riding the woman, if you will.
 
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bloodygrace

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Zionism if the false belief system that usurped Judaism by the converted Kazars during the dark ages. 90%+ of "Jews today are not Sephardic but Ashkenazi... note the suffix to their name 'nazi'
Zionism is a political movement that controls the religious... the beast riding the woman, if you will.

I thought the beast was Rome and the woman was Rome and even the little horn was Rome. Everything is Rome in your prophetic schema. Are we changing our tune now?
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I thought the beast was Rome and the woman was Rome and even the little horn was Rome. Everything is Rome in your prophetic schema. Are we changing our tune now?
Pay attention and read things carefully.... that's probably part of your issue is not taking the time to let the words absorb into your mind. The Beast of Revelation is the woman (church) riding the beast (government). The same with the image to the beast...

Zionism is a beast (government) riding a woman (church)... see the difference?
 
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masmpg

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How do the SDA see Israel and Zionism?

It's something I'm curious about as IIRC, Adventists don't believe in dispensationalism. Would you be historic "post-trib" premillennialists?

The SDA is one of the denominations I'm looking into. I have had some experience with the SDA as used to occasionally attend an SDA church and went to an SDA run private school.

The SDA denomination see Israel as Paul describes in his gospels. We are told that they were cut off the parent stock so the gentiles could be grafted in as a witness against them to shame them into accepting Jesus so they can be grafted back in. Romans 11

As for the Zionists I do not believe the church has a stand on them. The Zionists historically are those who supported hitler against the shepardic and askenazi jews. The Zionists are the banksters of the world. The Rothchilds are Zionists and they donated much $$$ to hitler and his cause to rid the world of the real biblical jews.
 
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Dave-W

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The Zionists historically are those who supported hitler against the shepardic and askenazi jews.
?????

Your source? How can someone support the return of the Jews to their historic homeland (Zionism) but also support genocide against those same people? (hitler)
 
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overcomer

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?????

Your source? How can someone support the return of the Jews to their historic homeland (Zionism) but also support genocide against those same people? (hitler)

The holocaust created an environment that the displaced Jews wanted to go to their 'own country' in the land of Palestine.

Albert Pike, a 33 degree freemason claimed to receive visions from Lucifer for the plans of 3 world wars. The purpose of the 2nd world war was to get United States into a world governing body and to create a situation for the Jews to go back to Palestine.

This paves ways for the last world war where Judaeo-Christians are pitted against fundamental Muslims.
 
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Dave-W

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The holocaust created an environment that the displaced Jews wanted to go to their 'own country' in the land of Palestine.
Do you really think that was what Hitler, Himmler, Eichman and the other architects of the "Final Solution" had in mind - to send the Jews to Palestine?

The final solution was to eradicate the entire earth of all Jews. Since they were all involved in the occult (seances and the like) IMO it was a devilish plot to prevent the 2nd coming. (just like Herrod's plot to prevent the first coming by killing all the babies around Bethleham)

Any and all attempts will fail just as Herrod did.
 
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overcomer

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Do you really think that was what Hitler, Himmler, Eichman and the other architects of the "Final Solution" had in mind - to send the Jews to Palestine?
Remember these evil men were just instruments for Satan to carry out his final solution: a one-world-government and one-world-religion where Satan rules. It's the Hegelian principle where you have thesis: Judaeo-Christians and antithesis: fundamental Muslims, then the synthesis: final peaceful solution after many years of bloodshed.

This is how Rome which controls all the occults works: having her left hand fights her right hand. Have you wondered why the elite Zionist Jews and the ruling class Muslims are all masons?

The final solution was to eradicate the entire earth of all Jews. Since they were all involved in the occult (seances and the like) IMO it was a devilish plot to prevent the 2nd coming. (just like Herrod's plot to prevent the first coming by killing all the babies around Bethleham)

Any and all attempts will fail just as Herrod did.

Satan already lost and he knows it when he couldn't prevent Jesus from dying on the cross and ascending to heaven after resurrection. His only chance is to convince as many people as possible to follow him rather than following God. Then he can claim God is unfair and unfit to rule the universe. That's final battle: Christ and his people vs Satan and his people, as it has always been.

All these wars, revolutions and sufferings on earth are created by Satan for that purpose of people accepting his rules rather than God's laws. And humanity is but a collateral for Satan's purpose.
 
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Dave-W

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Satan already lost and he knows it when he couldn't prevent Jesus from dying on the cross and ascending to heaven after resurrection. His only chance is convince as many people as possible to follow him rather than following God. Then he can claim God is unfair. That's final battle: Christ and his people vs Satan and his people, as it has always been.

All these wars, revolutions and sufferings on earth are created by Satan for that purpose of people accepting his rules rather than God's laws. And humanity is but a collateral for Satan's purpose.
You missed the point. Without Jews, NEW COVENANT BELIEVING Jews, the Lord cannot return. (at least not without violating His own words)
 
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Dave-W

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Christ's return is contingent upon his bride, the church being ready for the bridegroom.
And part of that bride being ready is the Jews as I have said.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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And part of that bride being ready is the Jews as I have said.
What do you make of Galatians 3:28,29?

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Or Colossians 3:10-12

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
 
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Dave-W

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What do you make of Galatians 3:28,29?
Or Colossians 3:10-12
Probably not your take on it.

My take (and that of most Messianics)
We all (Jew and gentile) have equal footing before the cross and at the throne of grace. Equal access to Eternal life and the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit.

But that does NOT mean that there are not various differing functions and callings for husband and wife, child and parent, Jew and gentile.

If you take those passages to mean that God no longer recognizes the distinction, then logically HE can no longer recognize the male-female distinction either. (so homosexuality would be ok)

But obviously HE does recognize those distinctions.

BTW - God created distinctions for MUTUAL BLESSING. To eliminate the distinction is to lose that blessing.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Probably not your take on it.

My take (and that of most Messianics)
We all (Jew and gentile) have equal footing before the cross and at the throne of grace. Equal access to Eternal life and the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit.

But that does NOT mean that there are not various differing functions and callings for husband and wife, child and parent, Jew and gentile.

If you take those passages to mean that God no longer recognizes the distinction, then logically HE can no longer recognize the male-female distinction either. (so homosexuality would be ok)

But obviously HE does recognize those distinctions.

BTW - God created distinctions for MUTUAL BLESSING. To eliminate the distinction is to lose that blessing.
I recognize that there are distinctions on temporal levels but we are talking spiritual, prophetic levels and end time events which only speak of two classes, the righteous and the wicked... the wheat and the tares. As an example, there is no mention of the Jews as a seperate entity from the rest of God's people in the book of Revelation.
 
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Dave-W

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I recognize that there are distinctions on temporal levels but we are talking spiritual, prophetic levels and end time events which only speak of two classes,
And in focusing on that too much you lose the blessings of distinction in the here-and-now.
As an example, there is no mention of the Jews as a seperate entity from the rest of God's people in the book of Revelation.
Rev is not the ONLY end-time scriptures we have.

Matt 24 has a lot of end time prophecy as well. (mixed in with 70ad prophecy)

According to Zechariah, The Lord will physically return to earth just east of the Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives. From that same location, our Lord blasts the pharisaic hypocrites and then prefaces his end-time dissertation to the apostles with these words:

Matt 23.37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Who is HE addressing? Jerusalem - i.e. the Jews that in less than a week will see him killed on the cross. Where does HE come back? Jerusalem. So we have a problem. He cannot come back until they say something. The quote is from Psalm 118 and was a major part of the Jewish wedding custom of the day. The bride would shout that out to alert the house that the wedding was about to happen. So as originally understood, it was a bride welcoming her groom.

And HE will not come back until the Jewish people say that - as a bride welcomes her groom.

In order for that to happen there needs to be at least a critical mass of distinctly Jewish believers (possibly IN Jerusalem) to say that.

 
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EastCoastRemnant

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According to Zechariah, The Lord will physically return to earth just east of the Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives. From that same location, our Lord blasts the pharisaic hypocrites and then prefaces his end-time dissertation to the apostles with these words:

Matt 23.37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Who is HE addressing? Jerusalem - i.e. the Jews that in less than a week will see him killed on the cross. Where does HE come back? Jerusalem. So we have a problem. He cannot come back until they say something. The quote is from Psalm 118 and was a major part of the Jewish wedding custom of the day. The bride would shout that out to alert the house that the wedding was about to happen. So as originally understood, it was a bride welcoming her groom.

And HE will not come back until the Jewish people say that - as a bride welcomes her groom.

In order for that to happen there needs to be at least a critical mass of distinctly Jewish believers (possibly IN Jerusalem) to say that.

Unfortunately, that proclamation is not just from the redeemed...

Romans 14:10-12
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


Philippians 2:10-11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We believe and have sound Biblical evidence to show that at the end of the thousand years with Christ, the redeemd are going to descend with Christ in New Jeruslalem, the unrighteous dead are raised, Satan is loosed a season and before their final destruction, Satan, his angels and all the host of the wicked will confess Jesus as Lord and that God merciful in judgement.
 
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