• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

scriptures in support of an idea

bricklayer

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2009
3,928
328
the rust belt
✟5,120.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Are scriptures in support of an idea any more than someone's understanding of scriptures in support of an idea?

Does one reason any less by citing scriptures?

Do you agree that God's reasoning is "cover to cover", and man's reasoning is any portion thereof?

Have the "plain faced" meaning of scriptures ever changed for you?

Is it more important to have "scriptures in support of an idea" or sound reasoning in support of one's understanding of scriptures?
 
Last edited:
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟122,193.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hello, I will try to give a few short answers to your difficult but thoughtful questions.

Are scriptures in support of an idea any more than someone's understanding of scriptures in support of an idea?

I'm gonna say yes, because Scripture should be held as the ultimate and final authority over someone's understanding, even our own.

Does one reason any less by citing scriptures?

Depends on how you look at it. Citing Scripture, kind of leaves things up to God the Holy Spirit and the individual reading Scripture, so there is the mind of the Spirit, and the mind of the person.

Do you agree that God's reasoning is "cover to cover", and man's reasoning is any portion thereof?

Have the "plain faced" meaning of scriptures ever changed for you?

Well, the Scriptures themselves have not changed, but the meaning of many so called "plain faced" Scriptures has changed for me, if not in total, partial. Something I've learned along the way, is that really, there are not many plain and simple passages, I mean one can view them more simplistically, but quite often there is more going on, and like it or not, the complexity of theology is in Scripture, and if we do not pay close attention, quite often will miss something.

Is it more important to have "scriptures in support of an idea" or sound reasoning in support of one's understanding of scriptures?

Both are important, but human reasoning must always bow to the authority of Scripture, to the authority of Christ. I'd say there are serious problems for anyone trying to provide a theological argument with little to no Scripture to support their understanding. If all that were required were sound argument, then I suppose Logicians (teachers of the subject of Logic) would make the best preachers, but how many Logician/preachers have you met?

What really gets me though, is when substantial Scripture support is given, and sound Scriptural arguments, and they cry "there you Calvinists go with your systematized rational argument". As though it were extra-biblical, as though it originated from pagan philosophy. Give me a break.
 
Upvote 0

bricklayer

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2009
3,928
328
the rust belt
✟5,120.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Is the sanctification brought by enlightenment/repentance a process?

Does the process of sanctification circumnavigate: human reasoning, language, literacy, instruction, polemics, observation or experimentation?

If the word is proof, why is it tested?

I do affirm that God's reasoning is "cover to cover", and that man's reasoning is any portion thereof.
Reasoning is the ontological sequencing of ideas. It is the organizing of ideas apart from their material, spatial or temporal being.
God's reasoning organizes eternally present ideas (all ideas all at once).
Human reasoning organizes a chronological sequence of ideas (one idea at a time).
We also have one emotion at a time and one willful act at a time.

Many bible verses I might have cited in support of an idea thirty years ago
today I might cite in support of a contradictory idea. There are many bible verses I once understood as prescriptive that I now understand as descriptive, for example.

Scriptural support amounts to a claim of objectivity.
It smacks of knowing a thing as it is. It smacks of finality devoid of process.

To me, the bible is the SOURCE of the ideas I treasure most,
and my reasoning is my support for them.

To me, nothing really starts as proof. It's just that all of the other ideas that I have considered have been disproved. What remains is what I am left to believe. Then, that is tested, and so on and so on.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

dysert

Member
Feb 29, 2012
6,233
2,238
USA
✟120,484.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
These are good and deep questions. So deep, in fact, that I'm not sure what they mean! So even though I'll offer my 2 cents, what I say may be non-sensical.
Are scriptures in support of an idea any more than someone's understanding of scriptures in support of an idea?
I don't think you can separate Scriptures from our understanding of them. For example, if I told you "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet", you wouldn't simply quote it in support of an idea -- because you don't know what it means.

Does one reason any less by citing scriptures?
There may be less reasoning going on when citing Scriptures because we usually cite Scripture when we think we know what it means. So Scripture can become sort of a "label" that carries with it some meaning that we don't have to reprocess every time we cite it. Kinda like if you meet a Republican and start talking politics. You don't have to cover the basic beliefs of a Republican because you know that label implies certain basics.

Do you agree that God's reasoning is "cover to cover", and man's reasoning is any portion thereof?
I don't know what that means?

Have the "plain faced" meaning of scriptures ever changed for you?
They probably have, although I don't remember any more. Even "plain faced" text can assume a new meaning after we've had more experience, learn more about the culture, learn more about what the rest of Scripture says about things, etc. It's the whole idea of maturing in the Word and being able to understand things more fully than we did when we were only drinking milk instead of eating meat.

Is it more important to have "scriptures in support of an idea" or sound reasoning in support of one's understanding of scriptures?
I think this is a false dichotomy. I think they're blocks that build on one another. So you must have sound reasoning in support of your understanding of Scripture, and then the Scripture can provide support of an idea. If your understanding of Scripture is wrong, then using it to support an idea will be invalid.

Does the sanctifying enlightenment/repentance process, through which Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, circumnavigate the very human reasoning process?
Certainly there are times when what we believe to be true may go against human reason. After all, God's ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. I think, though, that going outside human reasoning should be the exception instead of the rule. We are told to love God with all our *mind*, too, so human reasoning, as tempered with the Holy Spirit's enlightenment, should typically play a role.

Does the process sanctification circumnavigate: human reasoning, language, literacy, instruction, polemics, observation or experimentation?
I think what I wrote above addresses this, too. But I would emphasize that the Word is the ultimate authority over other things (like experimentation). The Word is true, and if our experience doesn't line up with it, it probably means we're misunderstanding what Scripture means, what our experience means, or both.

If the word is proof, why is it tested?
Not sure what you mean by "tested", but you can test something in order to "prove" it out. For example, if you build a bridge under correct engineering principles to hold a 10-ton load, you could then "test" the bridge by putting a 10-ton load on it -- not to see if it will collapse, but rather to verify that it won't.
 
Upvote 0

bricklayer

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2009
3,928
328
the rust belt
✟5,120.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Although the truth exists, there is more than one way to look at anything,
and each is left to believe something.

What is implied by the written word of God is what it is objective.
What is inferred from those words is subjective.

I am loath to cite scriptures as the proof of an idea because, to me, it smacks of a claim of objectivity.

To me, scriptures are a source of ideas that cannot be found anywhere else,
not the least of which is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

In addition to being well spring of unique ideas, the scriptues are also a negative check on mis-perceptions of those ideas.

To me, the bible is primarily a unique source of hypothesis, and secondarily a negative check on error, a source of antithesis to wrong inferences. Support in confirmation, although comforting and encouraging in its guidance, is ancillary and proves nothing.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,474
✟94,054.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Understanding in the Scriptures, the objective truth that comprise the Scriptures, comes only by revelation not by reason. Reason is flawed and by man's reason the Jews hung the Son of God on a treein the name of God. By man's reason the Roman Catholics burnt thousands at the stake in the name of God. By man's reason every heresy tyhat has ever popped up comes. Paul clearly tells us that the natural man cannot even percieve the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. 1Cor. 2:14 All these questions forget or leave out the necessity bof the Spirit as the revealer of truth. The Scriptures are not a set of ideas to be proved they are a body of truth to be bowed to and believed.
 
Upvote 0

bricklayer

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2009
3,928
328
the rust belt
✟5,120.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Understanding in the Scriptures, the objective truth that comprise the Scriptures, comes only by revelation not by reason. Reason is flawed and by man's reason the Jews hung the Son of God on a treein the name of God. By man's reason the Roman Catholics burnt thousands at the stake in the name of God. By man's reason every heresy tyhat has ever popped up comes. Paul clearly tells us that the natural man cannot even perceive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. 1Cor. 2:14 All these questions forget or leave out the necessity bof the Spirit as the revealer of truth. The Scriptures are not a set of ideas to be proved they are a body of truth to be bowed to and believed.

The sanctifying enlightenment/repentance work of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God is a process. It is, as are all processes, a prescribed sequence of changes. It does not circumnavigate the reasoning, language, literacy, instruction, polemic, emotional or willful processes. He leads us into all truth; He doesn't transport us there.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,474
✟94,054.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I am loath to cite scripture as proof of an idea because
the more sure I am of what I see, the less sure I am of what I saw,
and everything that I now see will soon be what I saw.
So the things you believed yesterday are not the same things that you believe today? The Scriptures never change and neither does our understsnding of the truth that they embody. I still believe exactly what I believed from the Scriptures 20 years ago. I have added to that knowledge more understanding but the simple truth has never changed.
If the truth of the Scriptures changes for you it is because you didn't/don't know the truth of the Scriptures.
 
Upvote 0

bricklayer

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2009
3,928
328
the rust belt
✟5,120.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
So the things you believed yesterday are not the same things that you believe today? The Scriptures never change and neither does our understanding of the truth that they embody. I still believe exactly what I believed from the Scriptures 20 years ago. I have added to that knowledge more understanding but the simple truth has never changed.
If the truth of the Scriptures changes for you it is because you didn't/don't know the truth of the Scriptures.

Although the truth exists in scriptures, there is more than one way to look at anything, and each is left to believe something.

There are scriptures I once inferred as prescriptive that I now infer as descriptive.

Even as I come to trust the truths in the bible more and more,
I come to trust my initial inferences less and less.

Enlightenment/repentance is a process.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,474
✟94,054.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Although the truth exists in scriptures, there is more than one way to look at anything, and each is left to believe something.
Careful there. If I didn't know better I would think that you are one of those who hold to the view that Scriptures are not truth but contain truth. But Peter makes it very clear that the Scriptures are be believed even above what we have seen with our eyes or experienced in our lives. 2Pet.1:16-21 Truth doesn't depend on our view of it, it simply is truth. We are to view it as such. It is not necessary to understand truth to know it as truth. The Spirit speaks it to my heart as truth and that is enough. Is my mind and reason involved? Sure but only to the extent that I know that truth agrees with itself.

There are scriptures I once inferred as prescriptive that I now infer as descriptive.
Could you give us examples please?

Even as I come to trust the truths in the bible more and more,
I come to trust my initial inferences less and less.
The Scriptures mean what they say and that never changes. However we are given more and more light to understand their spiritual significance as we grow in grace and knowledge. It isn't that I trust less in what I initially thought but that I have added to that thought more understanding.

Enlightenment/repentance is a process.
We do grow in grace and knowledge, 2Pet. 3:18, and that is a continual process.
 
Upvote 0

bricklayer

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2009
3,928
328
the rust belt
✟5,120.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Careful there. If I didn't know better I would think that you are one of those who hold to the view that Scriptures are not truth but contain truth. But Peter makes it very clear that the Scriptures are be believed even above what we have seen with our eyes or experienced in our lives. 2Pet.1:16-21 Truth doesn't depend on our view of it, it simply is truth. We are to view it as such. It is not necessary to understand truth to know it as truth. The Spirit speaks it to my heart as truth and that is enough. Is my mind and reason involved? Sure but only to the extent that I know that truth agrees with itself.

Could you give us examples please?

The Scriptures mean what they say and that never changes. However we are given more and more light to understand their spiritual significance as we grow in grace and knowledge. It isn't that I trust less in what I initially thought but that I have added to that thought more understanding.

We do grow in grace and knowledge, 2Pet. 3:18, and that is a continual process.

Truth is not relative. Truth is that which corresponds to its predicate.
Truth is necessarily implied; it is contingently inferred.
In other words, what is implied is not necessarily inferred.

Example:
The various scriptures that state, along the line, that those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. For many years I was left to believe that verses along that line to be prescriptive. I was left to believe that the cause was calling on the name of the Lord and the effect was being saved. Now, I am left to believe verses along that line to be descriptive. I am left to believe that being saved is the cause and calling on the name of the Lord is the effect. In this way, the "plain faced obvious" meaning of many scriptures have changed over the decades.

God given faith involves the entire person: intellect, emotion and will.

Intellectually, there are long standing truths that I have come to trust.
However, intellectually, nothing is really ever proved to me as much as all of the other ideas that I've considered have beed disproved. What remains is what I am left to believe. Then, that is tested, and so on, and so on.

If the bible started out as proof, it would not need to be tested. The word is always tested. The bible is only proof to the extent that it has been proved.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,474
✟94,054.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Truth is not relative. Truth is that which corresponds to its predicate.
Truth is necessarily implied; it is contingently inferred.
In other words, what is implied is not necessarily inferred.

Example:
The various scriptures that state, along the line, that those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. For many years I was left to believe that verses along that line to be prescriptive. I was left to believe that the cause was calling on the name of the Lord and the effect was being saved. Now, I am left to believe verses along that line to be descriptive. I am left to believe that being saved is the cause and calling on the name of the Lord is the effect. In this way, the "plain faced obvious" meaning of many scriptures have changed over the decades.

God given faith involves the entire person: intellect, emotion and will.

Intellectually, there are long standing truths that I have come to trust.
However, intellectually, nothing is really ever proved to me as much as all of the other ideas that I've considered have beed disproved. What remains is what I am left to believe. Then, that is tested, and so on, and so on.

If the bible started out as proof, it would not need to be tested. The word is always tested. The bible is only proof to the extent that it has been proved.
How about using some simple plain language that a bumpkin like me can understand. You tend to talk way over the head of this old bricklayer. :confused:
 
Upvote 0

bricklayer

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2009
3,928
328
the rust belt
✟5,120.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
How about using some simple plain language that a bumpkin like me can understand. You tend to talk way over the head of this old bricklayer. :confused:

Excuse me please.

I don't believe anything in the bible just because it's in the bible because ultimately all I'd be believing is what I think it says. What it actually says may be quite a bit different.

I've learned not to lean on my own understanding.
The word of God is tested because it doesn't start out as proof.

There are long standing truths. Ideas that I first got from the bible are still standing while others have come up and fallen. In the end, what remains is what I am left to believe. Then that will be tested, and so on, and so on.
 
Upvote 0

bricklayer

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2009
3,928
328
the rust belt
✟5,120.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The bible does not start out as proof; that's why reasoning the scriptures, AKA bible, study is so important.

Physical evidence does not start out as proof; that's why reasoning the evidence, AKA forensic science, is so important.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,474
✟94,054.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Excuse me please.

I don't believe anything in the bible just because it's in the bible because ultimately all I'd be believing is what I think it says. What it actually says may be quite a bit different.

I've learned not to lean on my own understanding.
The word of God is tested because it doesn't start out as proof.

There are long standing truths. Ideas that I first got from the bible are still standing while others have come up and fallen. In the end, what remains is what I am left to believe. Then that will be tested, and so on, and so on.
I think I get what you are saying. If I may I would say it like this: I know the Bible to be true because I have experienced its truth by trial. Not that I have tried it but that it has tried me.
 
Upvote 0

bricklayer

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2009
3,928
328
the rust belt
✟5,120.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I think I get what you are saying. If I may I would say it like this: I know the Bible to be true because I have experienced its truth by trial. Not that I have tried it but that it has tried me.

I am comfortable with that.
 
Upvote 0

motherprayer

Elisha
Jul 12, 2012
8,470
586
Visit site
✟26,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So the things you believed yesterday are not the same things that you believe today? The Scriptures never change and neither does our understsnding of the truth that they embody.

The only thing about this that raises a question is the fact that SO MANY believers feel differently about what Scriptures say. We even have someone over on GT arguing that premarital sex and divorce are perfectly find with God - and citing Scripture to that effect (although not very convincingly lol)

I have come upon many instances, since I became a Christian, where my personal understanding of truth didn't match up with Scripture. I had to grow and learn the difference between what "I" feel is right and what Scripture says is right.

For instance, when I became a Christian, I was unmarried and living with the father of my child. I disagreed strongly with "this crazy religious notion of no sex before marriage" and so I did some studying on what the Bible says about it, and found that no matter how I felt, I was wrong. My human reasoning - the reasoning of someone who loves Jesus and desires to serve Him the best I can - was wrong. It wasn't because I wasn't saved, but because my mind is subject to the culture of this world, which differs greatly from Biblical commands.
 
Upvote 0
E

Eddie L

Guest
The only thing about this that raises a question is the fact that SO MANY believers feel differently about what Scriptures say. We even have someone over on GT arguing that premarital sex and divorce are perfectly find with God - and citing Scripture to that effect (although not very convincingly lol)

I have come upon many instances, since I became a Christian, where my personal understanding of truth didn't match up with Scripture. I had to grow and learn the difference between what "I" feel is right and what Scripture says is right.

For instance, when I became a Christian, I was unmarried and living with the father of my child. I disagreed strongly with "this crazy religious notion of no sex before marriage" and so I did some studying on what the Bible says about it, and found that no matter how I felt, I was wrong. My human reasoning - the reasoning of someone who loves Jesus and desires to serve Him the best I can - was wrong. It wasn't because I wasn't saved, but because my mind is subject to the culture of this world, which differs greatly from Biblical commands.

Our ideas are to be shaped by Scripture, over time. That's what you've described with a great example (thank you). It shaped your actions by sculpting your heart just like it's supposed to.

That's different, I think, from Mr. Brick's notion that we should create philosophical ideas within us and have them be eliminated by finding fault with them through our current understanding of Scripture. This assumes that the right idea exists in us somewhere, when in fact it doesn't until the Word has planted the idea in us.
 
Upvote 0

bricklayer

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2009
3,928
328
the rust belt
✟5,120.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Our ideas are to be shaped by Scripture, over time. That's what you've described with a great example (thank you). It shaped your actions by sculpting your heart just like it's supposed to.

That's different, I think, from Mr. Brick's notion that we should create philosophical ideas within us and have them be eliminated by finding fault with them through our current understanding of Scripture. This assumes that the right idea exists in us somewhere, when in fact it doesn't until the Word has planted the idea in us.


Please reread what I wrote. Your misunderstanding is on no small matter.

For futher clarification, please read the OP of the thread entitled "On biblical proof" in the Christian apologetics section.
 
Upvote 0