Scripture Question

[Struggler]

Chosen by God

The idea of election goes back to Abraham (Gen. 12:1-3). God chose to make a nation of that patriarch’s descendants. He chose Israel to be his people. He worked his purposes out through that one nation and in due course sent his Messiah as a Jew. After that, God continued to choose, or elect, people in accordance with his purpose (Rom. 9:11), grace (Rom. 11:5), love (1 Thess. 1:4), and foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2). The “elect” can rely on God’s concern for them (Luke 18:7) and on their sure salvation (Rom. 8:33). They are to live lives befitting their status (Col. 3:12-14). Mystery is inherent in the concept of election, because we also know that God desires the salvation of all persons (1 Tim. 2:4).
Source unknown

Rom 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.


How does a person know if God hates them or loves them?

Or in other words, Did Esau know God hated him? And if so, how did he know?

 

[Ormly]

Chosen by God

The idea of election goes back to Abraham (Gen. 12:1-3). God chose to make a nation of that patriarch’s descendants. He chose Israel to be his people. He worked his purposes out through that one nation and in due course sent his Messiah as a Jew. After that, God continued to choose, or elect, people in accordance with his purpose (Rom. 9:11), grace (Rom. 11:5), love (1 Thess. 1:4), and foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2). The “elect” can rely on God’s concern for them (Luke 18:7) and on their sure salvation (Rom. 8:33). They are to live lives befitting their status (Col. 3:12-14). Mystery is inherent in the concept of election, because we also know that God desires the salvation of all persons (1 Tim. 2:4).
Source unknown

Rom 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.


How does a person know if God hates them or loves them?

Or in other words, Did Esau know God hated him? And if so, how did he know?

To get this off on a more correct footing I believe the emphasis must be placed upon the foreknowledge of God when thinking of election [selection] that it not begin with Abraham but before the foundation of the world was laid. With that in mind, it can be said that in the fulness of time God chose/selected Abraham whom He foreknew.... Following that same reasoning it can be said that God rejected Esau because He forekew Esau didn't care what God thought or about God's blessings except for his own "'self'-preservation".. which God hated from/in anyone.

 

[Struggler]

Ok, I'm not arguing Predestination. I don't have a problem with that. I know the Bible says that He knew us even before the foundations of the world.

My question is, How does a person know if he's a Jacob or an Esau? How do you know if God loves you or He hates you?

If one is not of the elect, what's the sense of sticking around? If God hates me, I just as soon go to hell now than wait.

 

[ContentInHim]

If you love God, you are one of the elect. It's that simple, really. Because He has placed a soft heart in you. If he had not done so, you would not love Him. Do those who do not love Him question themselves the way you are doing? Nope!

 

[BrotherDave]

Before God saves us, we do not know if we are one of His elect because we are spiritually dead. We do know that God is not a respecter of persons and He saves people from all over the world. So, we want to stick around because there is a chance I may be one of His. We can pray and learn about God (Col1:10) and spend time in scripture since that is the environment in which He will save us (Eph: 1:13, Ro10:17). But, we have to leave it all in Gods hands knowing his will is perfect. He will call his people (draw them to Himself) they will hear him, He will save them and then they will do good works and truly love him. But God is in control and does all this on His timeframe, not ours. We can do nothing to “lock in” in our salvation. That is why we have to wait on the Lord (Psalm 62:1, 5).

Now we all were made in His image and have God’s law written on our hearts so everyone “knows” right from wrong and deep down everyone knows someday they will have to answer for their sin. This is why God said we must constantly test ourselves (Gal 6:4, I Thess 5: 17). Are we living for God or for ourselves? Do we put God first? Do we continue in the same sins over and over? Esau knew that God hates sin and the sinner (Ezekiel 18:20, Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5). If he took a hard look at himself and if he was elected to salvation he would have acknowledged the sinful desires in his heart and cried out to God for help.

If we are saved we have a strong desire to put God first and in so doing we will keep his commands (I John 2:3). We will truly love our neighbor and be a witness for God so others may hear the gospel call and be saved if it is God’s will for them. The key to knowing where you stand is to take an honest look at yourself and evaluate your findings against what God teaches in scripture (Eph 5:10). Do I love Him and his word and am I pleading for forgiveness from the heart (I Thess 2:4) and soul or is it just a mental exercise now and then? Do I say one thing on Sunday and all week do the opposite (Mat 15:8)?

Now no one should “just as soon go to hell now” because as I said there is a chance they may be saved. They still have hope (think of the thief on the cross – Christ saved him in the final moments of his life). For those going to Hell, this life is the best they will ever experience. Hell will be a terrible place where those there will be punished forever and ever (Rev 14:11).


I guess this is the long answer. As ContentInHim indicated, by questioning yourself you are displaying a love for God. Spend time in the Bible and praying God for wisdom and strength to do the things He wills.

 

[Struggler]

Ok, thanks. I do spend time in the Bible. I read from the Word every day. I read commentaries. I read books on studying. I do researching. I am not complacent and I am the same every day of the week and I am the same where ever I am. I do not put on airs. I am as honest as I can be, I'm not always as tactful as I wish I were but I try to be honest.

I have been saved for 26 years. But, I am in a bad place right now. And I do not know if God hates me or not. I feel like He does.

I really just don't know anything right now. I just have no more hope left. I can't seem to find any faith.

I am not living in sin. I live alone with my dog. I am disabled and I go days and days without seeing a human being.

I feel very rejected and as I said I feel like God must hate me. And I want to know how will I know. Did Esau know God hated him? The Bible says that God hated him before he was born, before he did good or bad.

So I want to know am I a Jacob or an Esau? And how can I be absolutely sure?

 

[BigNorsk]

Ok, I'm not arguing Predestination. I don't have a problem with that. I know the Bible says that He knew us even before the foundations of the world.

My question is, How does a person know if he's a Jacob or an Esau? How do you know if God loves you or He hates you?

If one is not of the elect, what's the sense of sticking around? If God hates me, I just as soon go to hell now than wait.

I would suggest instead of wandering around in dark places trying to foretell the hidden knowledge of God to simply look to the promises of the Bible.

The jailer was in a similar place to what you are and what was he told?

Act 16:30-31 NIV
(30) He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
(31) They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."
See it there, the promise, the gospel? Believe and you will be saved.

Instead of worrying about a question of your election that you cannot fathom or understand fully, I would suggest instead that you simply look here.

Do you believe?

Then have the peace that God through scripture has promised you salvation. You can be secure in that. There rests your assurance in the gospel, the good news. He who believes shall be saved.

Martin Luther warned about how dangerous it was to dwell on election and he believed in election. But he also understood that if election becomes your centerpiece that at some point, and some point very soon, you go where you should not go. You might make God the author of sin, you might loose your assurance all because you want to go beyond scripture and understand things as God understands them.

No, instead the proper thing to do is receive the gift God made of his revelation in the Bible and accept it and accept it as it is. And there you will find assurance that is gone when you overlay the bible with the contemplations and philosophies of man.

There are reasons why God only reveals so much, we don't even know why, but we do know that God is sovereign, or Lord and Master. He has shown us through Jesus just how abounding his love is for us. Our place is not to thrash about and fight against that, but to submit and to accept his sovereignity and thereby we find we are assured and strenghthend.

He who believes shall be saved.

Marv

 

[JTLauder]

Hi Struggler,

We all go through dry times when we feel far from the Lord, or when we are dealing with hard times.
In such times, I can always take comfort that no matter what happens, if we don't turn away from God of our own choosing, then God's love will never leave us.

"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
- Romans 8:38-39

 

[BrotherDave]

As I said the best indication of salvation is having an internal hunger for God and his Word. A saved person hungers for the truth hidden in the Gospel and can’t get enough of it and wants to live for the glory of God. It is true that God chose those he would save before they were born (before the foundation of the world) but no one knows who the elect are. Humans, Americans especially want things now or when they think they deserve something. We all want some sort of guarantee that we are a child of God, but all one can do is rest in the Lord and wait for him to come to us (Psalm 62:1, 5). Now, that doesn’t mean we run off and be an unlawful rebel until God draws us. His law is written in our hearts and as a person wanting salvation we should be living as “good” as we can.

Since God does all the saving it is difficult to know for sure exactly when He gives an individual a new heart (Ezek 11:19, Ezek 36:27). But someone that has been saved should see sin decreasing in their life as they grow in grace. They are very humble because they know they are a sinner and not worthy of salvation. It is only because of God’s grace (Eph 2:8) that He chose to save them. While they take comfort and have great joy for their spiritual state they also have increasing feelings of sadness and fear as they see all the sin in this world and even within their on life as they struggle with sinful desires of their body (I Peter 2:11, Rom 8:10,13), as Paul (Rom 7:24) and David did.

As a loving father, God may chastise an individual (Deut 8:5, Heb 12:11)) which is an extremely tough lesson but a child of God will turn to prayer for strength and understand why he was chastised and turn away from the sin. So, what you interpret as hate may be just the opposite. It is how you respond that is important. Questioning how God sees you is always a good thing to do. It keeps a person humble and searching for truth. Look at what is good in your life and be thankful for it. For example, You have time to spend getting deep into the Word and divide it by comparing scripture with scripture (2 Tim 3:16 Col 1:10). There are many, myself included that do not have that blessing. We are torn between supporting and caring for family and can be distracted by sin that seems to challenge us everywhere we turn. It is a challenge to put God first every day. It takes so many long quiet hours to truly study God’s word. You could even learn some Greek and Hebrew and read the original autographs.

Personally, I would be careful about learning from what other men teach no matter how “holy” they may appear. You really do not need anything (in my opinion) except a King James Bible – the oldest and most accurate translation and God.

We can take comfort knowing that all of God’s people will be saved (John 6:37) and He is not a respecter of persons and if we believe with all heart, then our name may also be in the Lambs book of life. I find it helpful to read Psalm 119; it describes the mentality of a child of God verse 71 -77 may be of particular interest. Remember, once saved we belong to Christ (Eph 3:1, 4:1), He is always with us and will not lose us (John 10:28). Continue in your studies, it is amazing how scripture becomes so clear the more we study it, believe it and share it. Pray to God often, He never grows weary of pleas for help

 

[pippa]

[
i havent come across the view expressed on this thread that we dont know for sure if we're saved. i thought that was one of the things Christianity has over other religions, that we CAN know. somewhere in John or the epistles of John it says something like 'these things are written that you might know that Jesus is the Son of God, and that, believing, you might have life in his name.'

 

[pippa]

Ok, thanks. I do spend time in the Bible. I read from the Word every day. I read commentaries. I read books on studying. I do researching. I am not complacent and I am the same every day of the week and I am the same where ever I am. I do not put on airs. I am as honest as I can be, I'm not always as tactful as I wish I were but I try to be honest.

I have been saved for 26 years. But, I am in a bad place right now. And I do not know if God hates me or not. I feel like He does.

I really just don't know anything right now. I just have no more hope left. I can't seem to find any faith.

I am not living in sin. I live alone with my dog. I am disabled and I go days and days without seeing a human being.

I feel very rejected and as I said I feel like God must hate me. And I want to know how will I know. Did Esau know God hated him? The Bible says that God hated him before he was born, before he did good or bad.

So I want to know am I a Jacob or an Esau? And how can I be absolutely sure?

Struggler, i'm sorry that you're feeling so alone and hopeless. i can relate to that very much myself. there are two yahoo forums i belong to where there are nice people who encourage each other. one is avoidant sanctuary. i would have told you this in PM but i dont know how to do it. sorry about that.
pippa

 

[ozell]

Chosen by God

The idea of election goes back to Abraham (Gen. 12:1-3). God chose to make a nation of that patriarch’s descendants. He chose Israel to be his people. He worked his purposes out through that one nation and in due course sent his Messiah as a Jew. After that, God continued to choose, or elect, people in accordance with his purpose (Rom. 9:11), grace (Rom. 11:5), love (1 Thess. 1:4), and foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2). The “elect” can rely on God’s concern for them (Luke 18:7) and on their sure salvation (Rom. 8:33). They are to live lives befitting their status (Col. 3:12-14). Mystery is inherent in the concept of election, because we also know that God desires the salvation of all persons (1 Tim. 2:4).
Source unknown

Rom 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.


How does a person know if God hates them or loves them?

Or in other words, Did Esau know God hated him? And if so, how did he know?

hi

you ask

How does a person know if God hates them or loves them?

Jesus said

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Did Esau know God hated him? And if so, how did he know?

Rv 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rv 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.