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Scripture as my measure

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Bible2

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ortho_cat said:

See with the creed, u can instantly rule out the JW's because they don't profess the Trinity, but with scripture as rule, JW's can profess the same, yet still deny the Trinity.

Note that it can be shown from the scriptures themselves that the JW's don't truly have scripture as their rule, for their denial of the Trinity contradicts the scriptures' teaching of the Trinity: Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1,14, Matthew 1:23), and he's uncreated God just as God the Father is uncreated God, for everything that has been created has been created by Jesus (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17). Because Jesus is uncreated, there was never a time when he was not; he has always existed: he is YHWH the Holy One, from everlasting (Habakkuk 1:12a, Acts 3:14, Micah 5:2c).

Jesus is YHWH the only Savior (Isaiah 43:11, Titus 2:13), YHWH the good shepherd (Psalms 23:1, John 10:11, Mark 10:18), YHWH who will set his feet on the Mount of Olives at his return (Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12), YHWH who is the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6, Revelation 2:8), YHWH the great I AM (Exodus 3:14, John 8:58), the great God (Titus 2:13b), the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), one God with God the Father (John 10:30, John 20:28), equal in divinity with God the Father (Philippians 2:6).

Just as the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19b) is the three distinct, co-existing Persons (Mark 1:9-11) of God the Father (Galatians 1:3), God the Son (Hebrews 1:8), and God the Holy Spirit (cf. Mark 13:11 & Matthew 10:19-20; Acts 5:3-4), so the Trinity is YHWH the Father, YHWH the Son, and YHWH the Holy Spirit, for YHWH is the only God (Isaiah 45:5-6).

While there's no sufficient analogy to completely explain God (Isaiah 40:18), how he can be one God and yet three Persons at the same time, the Bible does refer to God speaking things into existence (e.g. Genesis 1:3; Hebrews 11:3). What God spoke was his Word, who is that Person of the Trinity who has become flesh in Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14, 1 Timothy 3:16, Luke 24:39). But God the Word existed even before God the Father spoke anything into existence, because all things created were created by God the Word (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17). And the original Greek word in John 1:1,14 for "Word" is "Logos", which refers not only to spoken words, but also to any ordered thoughts. Clearly, God has always had ordered thoughts, so God the Word has always existed.

So a human analogy for God would have God the Father as the mind, and God the Word as the ordered thoughts, speech, and writings (incarnate words) of that mind. God the Holy Spirit would then be analogous to the breath (spirit) which is inextricable from human speech, and also inextricable from ordered thought, in that a non-breathing person is dead and his brain has no thoughts. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) is one God with God the Father and God the Word because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father (cf. Matthew 10:19-20 & Mark 13:11) and the Spirit of the Word (John 14:16-18, Romans 8:9).

While an individual human being isn't three persons, the truth about God can still be grasped by looking at man's design, for man was made in God's image (Genesis 1:26). Just as an individual man has his word (e.g. Revelation 12:11) and his spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23), so the one God has his Word (John 1:1) and his Spirit (Romans 8:9). But the one God is so infinitely greater than man (Isaiah 40:17) that the Word of God and the Spirit of God are distinct Persons within his being.

Besides the analogy of a single human's mind, thoughts/speech/writings, and breath, the Trinity can also be compared to the single sun's sphere, light, and heat. The Father would be analogous to the sphere of the sun, which is invisible to humans except for its visible light, which is analogous to the incarnate, visible Word (Colossians 1:15, John 14:9). And the sun is felt by humans via its invisible, infrared rays, which would be analogous to the Holy Spirit.

Another analogy of how God can be one God and yet three Persons at the same time would be H20 (subscript 2), which even though it's only one substance, it can exist in three distinct states of solid, liquid, and gas at the same time (such as in one glass two-thirds full with water and ice cubes, and with water vapor filling the top third of the glass).

Another analogy of how God can be one God and yet three Persons at the same time would be space, which even though it's only one area, it consists of three distinct dimensions at the same time.

Another analogy of how God can be one God and yet three Persons at the same time would be 1x1x1=1, or 1a x 1b x 1c = 1abc.

Some people think that Jesus Christ can't possibly be God because he prays to God the Father. But the answer to this is that Jesus prays to God the Father (e.g. John 11:41-42) because even though Jesus is God (John 1:1,14), he at the same time is also fully human just like us (Hebrews 2:17), and so he has a God and Father just like us (John 20:17). Before Jesus became our eternally-human mediator/high priest (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:17, Hebrews 7:24-26), and the only-begotten (only-born) Son of God (John 3:16), the only human born without any human father (Luke 1:34-35), Jesus pre-existed (John 17:5, John 8:58) from all eternity as God the Word (John 1:1,14, 1 Timothy 3:16). Jesus has always been, and still is, even now in human flesh (Luke 24:39), one God with God the Father (John 10:30, John 20:28, Titus 2:13). Jesus has always been, and still is, even now in human flesh (1 John 4:3), equal in divinity with God the Father (Philippians 2:6, Revelation 2:8, Isaiah 44:6).

Christians must in no way encourage those who claim to be Christians yet deny the true, Biblical doctrine regarding Jesus Christ (2 John 1:7-11). Denying the doctrine of the full-divinity of Jesus is a very serious problem, just as serious as denying the doctrine that Jesus remains fully human (1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7), now and forever in the flesh (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 7:24-26, Hebrews 2:17, 1 Timothy 2:5). Denying either the full-divinity or the full-humanity of Jesus denies his ability to save us sinful humans from hell, for Jesus' human suffering during his Passion had to satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11).

Jesus' suffering during his Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2) because Jesus isn't just a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28): his soul is infinite, and so the suffering of his soul (Isaiah 53:11) was infinite in amount (even though it wasn't infinite in duration), and so his suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46). Every human has sinned (Romans 3:9-10,23) except Jesus (Hebrews 4:15b, 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11b) an infinite amount, when the elect believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28) while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11).
 
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Bible2

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While it's impossible to elevate too highly either God (Revelation 5:13, Hebrews 7:26, Ephesians 1:21) or the scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16, Isaiah 55:9, Psalms 138:2b), this doesn't mean that Christians need to offer animal sacrifices to either God or the scriptures (cf. Hebrews 10:8). Instead, Christians should be offering their own bodies as living sacrifices (Romans 12:1-2, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). And Christians must be willing to be killed before they would ever deny either God or the scriptures (Revelation 6:9, Mark 8:35-38, John 8:31b, Revelation 20:4).
 
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Rick Otto

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ortho_cat said: See with the creed, u can instantly rule out the JW's because they don't profess the Trinity, but with scripture as rule, JW's can profess the same, yet still deny the Trinity.
Note that it can be shown from the scriptures themselves that the JW's don't truly have scripture as their rule,
I hear that false accusation repeatedly,... like a vainly repetitious prayer.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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I hear that false accusation repeatedly,... like a vainly repetitious prayer.

Ya, we all know Jesus was againt repetitious prayer, wasn't he?
Matthew 26:39, 42, 44 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt." . . . [42] Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done." . . . [44] So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words.

Mark 14:39 And again he went away and prayed, saying the same words.​
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Note that it can be shown from the scriptures themselves that the JW's don't truly have scripture as their rule

Ya, good luck convincing them that! You can get scripture to read anything you want it to, armed with the right arsenal of verses...
 
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Ortho_Cat

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so do you worship the scriptures, then?
 
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Rick Otto

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Ya, good luck convincing them that! You can get scripture to read anything you want it to, armed with the right arsenal of verses...
Pretty much the state of the orthodoxies & most of the Prot denoms as well.
 
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Rick Otto

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We should all know Jesus was against vainly repetitious prayer.
The 2nd time was different words with the same meaning. Maybe the 3rd time was like that.
Ya,... you're right. He was against vainly repetitious prayer. Matt6:7
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Pretty much the state of the orthodoxies & most of the Prot denoms as well.

No, as in the early days of Christianity, the traditional Christians can point to tradition and say how and why it was never understood to be that way by any of the early church fathers or other influential christians. Of course Protestants can do the same, but that wouldn't be solely relying on scripture for teaching authority...
 
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Ortho_Cat

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We should all know Jesus was against vainly repetitious prayer.
The 2nd time was different words with the same meaning. Maybe the 3rd time was like that.
Ya,... you're right. He was against vainly repetitious prayer. Matt6:7

I'm glad you recognize the distinction
 
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sunlover1

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If you butter me on one side & drop me,
I'll land butterside down.
What if i butter you on both sides.. and don't drop you LOL
But don't let that go to your head!

Ya, good luck convincing them that! You can get scripture to read anything you want it to, armed with the right arsenal of verses...
You can claim Scripture says something that it doesn't
(Is that what God REALLY said?)
That's a very good reason that we need to STUDY..
to show ourselves approved..that we might RIGHTLY
divide the word of truth.
And eventually, we become mature to the point we can
discern the truth from the lie.

...seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12For when for the time ye
ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again
which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are
become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.



Scripture is a real treasure to me.
 
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Bible2

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ortho_cat said:

Ya, good luck convincing them that!

If JW's become convinced to believe the truth of the Trinity, it will be the scriptures themselves which will miraculously convince them (cf. Romans 10:17, Isaiah 55:11) through the Holy Spirit wielding the scriptures within them (Ephesians 6:17b, Hebrews 4:12), not through any mortal-human wisdom (1 Corinthians 2:11b-16), or through any idea of a purportedly infallible church, which in fact consists of fallible people (e.g. Galatians 2:11-14, John 18:17) who can wrongly employ their free will to veer away from the truth of the scriptures (2 Timothy 4:2-4, 1 Timothy 4:1, Mark 8:35-38). So if JW's don't believe the scriptures themselves teaching the Trinity, they won't be convinced to believe the Trinity no matter what anyone in the church says (cf. Luke 16:31, John 5:47).

ortho_cat said:

You can get scripture to read anything you want it to, armed with the right arsenal of verses...

Note that that claim hasn't been proven. For the misinterpretation of some verses should be able to be corrected by other verses (2 Timothy 3:16, Isaiah 28:9-10).

ortho_cat said:

so do you worship the scriptures, then?

No. For while it's impossible to elevate too highly either God (Revelation 5:13, Hebrews 7:26, Ephesians 1:21) or the scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16, Isaiah 55:9, Psalms 138:2b), the latter aren't elevated in the sense of worshipping them as if they were some fourth Person of the Trinity, but rather are elevated in the sense of acknowledging that because they're God's Word they're infallible (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Timothy 4:2), and in the sense that because they're God's Word we must be willing even to be killed before we would ever deny them (Revelation 6:9, Mark 8:35-38, John 8:31b, Revelation 20:4).
 
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Rick Otto

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Since Monty isn't here, I'll play Duck's Advocate:
Isn't "the norm that norms" cicular logic?

To which I would reply, "You make it sound like a bad thing, but it is exactly how a dictionary works. You use the dictionary to find out what the words in it mean.
It's like how a ruler works. To measure inches, you have to use inches.
 
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Thekla

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A language is not "dictionary alone".

(Even the use of a dictionary brings the question "which dictionary" ? Webster's concise or the 12 volume Oxford ?)

Nor will a dictionary stand in for an actual dialogue - in dialogue, the "dictionary" of the dialogue is created by the participation of those conversing.

It is again the analytical instead of interaction. (Hence, Scholasticism and legalism.)
 
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razeontherock

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Ya, we all know Jesus was againt [vainly] repetitious prayer, wasn't he?

Yes, we do. Please don't try to use Jesus' prayers as an example of anything futile. The passage you quoted is a GREAT example of both how to pray, and what our focus is to be. Shouldn't an Orthodox know that?
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Yes, we do. Please don't try to use Jesus' prayers as an example of anything futile. The passage you quoted is a GREAT example of both how to pray, and what our focus is to be. Shouldn't an Orthodox know that?

I was being facetious in my OP...
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Good analogy, sister
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Someday, you'll begin to understand the practice of Sola Scriptura. I'm confident of that. Try reading this...

Like I said earlier, your definition of SS is but one variation of many. Who says your definition is the correct one?

Some can interpret scripture to be the sole teaching authority, and say that to rely on tradition to prove a point from scripture is straying from the purpose and intention of SS, and "puts tradition above scripture", so to speak.

BTW, do you not affirm scripture to be your sole teaching authority?
 
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