Scriptural Evidence?

Quasicentennial · Dec 13, 2005

Adam and Eve. It's hard to believe that every one on this planet are all related to these two people. Because of one race of people who were curious of where God is and their bad ways (immorality), God had to change their one language suddenly into many kinds of complex languages so they wouldn't understand each other. If God hadn't done this language change Satan would have succeeded in making one race of people reach heaven through advanced space technology. In the bible, the story about men who built a "tall tower to reach God in the sky" in today's version that would be some towering spaceship that is capable of using solar power and plant life to convert carbondioxide into oxygen - like the plant dome ship in Battlestar Galactica - and that the ship will take several thousand years to reach God's heaven.

vipertaja · Dec 13, 2005

Quasicentennial said:
Adam and Eve. It's hard to believe that every one on this planet are all related to these two people. Because of one race of people who were curious of where God is and their bad ways (immorality), God had to change their one language suddenly into many kinds of complex languages so they wouldn't understand each other. If God hadn't done this language change Satan would have succeeded in making one race of people reach heaven through advanced space technology. In the bible, the story about men who built a "tall tower to reach God in the sky" in today's version that would be some towering spaceship that is capable of using solar power and plant life to convert carbondioxide into oxygen - like the plant dome ship in Battlestar Galactica - and that the ship will take several thousand years to reach God's heaven.

Well that's certainly a new way to put it.

Morallyangelic · Dec 13, 2005

Remus said:
There is nothing in Scripture that says that you must hold the YEC opinion.

Sounds like you're OEC.

If you have other questions, feel free to pm me. I may be able to help.

I would but I don't know how to PM anyone. lol

Remus · Dec 13, 2005

Morallyangelic said:
I would but I don't know how to PM anyone. lol

Just click on my name at in the header of this post and a menu will show up. Then select "Send a private message to Remus".

Oliver · Dec 13, 2005

To send a PM, left click on the person's name. A popup menu will appear. On the third or fourth line is the option: send a private message to X.

Concerning the OP, I would second the suggestion to read the works of St Augustine.

To respond your question on what you are if you believe in an old Earth, I'd say you are either an OEC (Old Earth Creationist) or a TE (Theistic Evolutionist), depending on whether or not you believe each "kind" was the result of a special act of creation by God or that each species was created by God by means of Evolution.

Morallyangelic · Dec 13, 2005

Oliver said:
To send a PM, left click on the person's name. A popup menu will appear. On the third or fourth line is the option: send a private message to X.

Concerning the OP, I would second the suggestion to read the works of St Augustine.

To respond your question on what you are if you believe in an old Earth, I'd say you are either an OEC (Old Earth Creationist) or a TE (Theistic Evolutionist), depending on whether or not you believe each "kind" was the result of a special act of creation by God or that each species was created by God by means of Evolution.

What is the difference in supporting evidence between someone who believes in OEC or in Evolution?

Wouldn't their evidence be the same?

Oliver · Dec 13, 2005

No they wouldn't. Take the example of human evolution: a creationist would assert that humans and modern chimps are two different kinds and are not related. An evolutionists would point do several lines of evidence (for example ERVs) that point to humans and modern chimps having a common ancestor. This kind of evidence is not explained by creationists, AFAIK.

Morallyangelic · Dec 13, 2005

Oliver said:
No they wouldn't. Take the example of human evolution: a creationist would assert that humans and modern chimps are two different kinds and are not related. An evolutionists would point do several lines of evidence (for example ERVs) that point to humans and modern chimps having a common ancestor. This kind of evidence is not explained by creationists, AFAIK.

What is AFAIK?

Oliver · Dec 13, 2005

As Far As I Know

Oliver · Dec 13, 2005

To be clearer, an OEC would accept the results of Geologists that show the Earth to be old, but not the results of biologists that show how species are related and change due to evolution. A TE would accept both, while seing evolution as God's method of creating. A TE believes in Creation. Just not in special Creation of all kinds.

Morallyangelic · Dec 13, 2005

Oliver said:
No they wouldn't. Take the example of human evolution: a creationist would assert that humans and modern chimps are two different kinds and are not related. An evolutionists would point do several lines of evidence (for example ERVs) that point to humans and modern chimps having a common ancestor. This kind of evidence is not explained by creationists, AFAIK.

So one says we came from God and one says we came from Monkeys?

Morallyangelic · Dec 13, 2005

Oliver said:
To be clearer, an OEC would accept the results of Geologists that show the Earth to be old, but not the results of biologists that show how species are related and change due to evolution. A TE would accept both, while seing evolution as God's method of creating. A TE believes in Creation. Just not in special Creation of all kinds.

So a TE believes in the evolution of monkeys but COULD also believe that those monkeys were originally created by God?

Mystman · Dec 13, 2005

Morallyangelic said:
So a TE believes in the evolution of monkeys but COULD also believe that those monkeys were originally created by God?

As a side note: I don't think you should concern yourself with "labels" too much at this point. Just look at the Bible and at the evidence, and draw your own conclusions from it. Those conclusions will probably fall into a group (TE/OEC/YEC/whatever). If not: who cares?

Freodin · Dec 13, 2005

Morallyangelic said:
So one says we came from God and one says we came from Monkeys?

No, both say that we came from God - only the method differed.

The creationist says that God "created" us - via an unexplained method, usually something miraculous/magical.

The theistic evolutionist says that God "created" us by guiding evolution along or allowing it to happen and acting on the results.

Kinseek · Dec 13, 2005

Morallyangelic said:
So a TE believes in the evolution of monkeys but COULD also believe that those monkeys were originally created by God?

Well, it`s more a case of believing that God created life on earth (or created the conditions of the universe so that life could appear), which evolved to these monkeys.

A TE is usually someone who believes that God initiated the mechanism of evolution (and *might* have given it a push in the right direction by selecting what mutations will occur and what enviromental pressure will happen, by virtue of "magic") and then let this evolution run its course for the last billions of years.

A TE is not someone who believes God created monkeys "as they appear now".

EDIT: Darn, beaten to it .

Oliver · Dec 13, 2005

Morallyangelic said:
So one says we came from God and one says we came from Monkeys?

No, both believe we where created by God, as well as every other species, but not by the same method (as Freodin rightly said).

Mystman as a point though: it's much more important to focus on what you believe and why you believe it than the label associated to these beliefs. There's hardly a clear definition of each of those labels, anyways, and many differences between people of the same group. Two YECs may not have the axact same view of Creation, and the same is true of OECs, TES, etc...

Morallyangelic · Dec 13, 2005

Kinseek said:
Well, it`s more a case of believing that God created life on earth (or created the conditions of the universe so that life could appear), which evolved to these monkeys.

A TE is usually someone who believes that God initiated the mechanism of evolution (and *might* have given it a push in the right direction by selecting what mutations will occur and what enviromental pressure will happen, by virtue of "magic") and then let this evolution run its course for the last billions of years.

A TE is not someone who believes God created monkeys "as they appear now".

EDIT: Darn, beaten to it .

So then what are people called who don't believe God had anything to do with anything?

Morallyangelic · Dec 13, 2005

Oliver said:
No, both believe we where created by God, as well as every other species, but not by the same method (as Freodin rightly said).

Mystman as a point though: it's much more important to focus on what you believe and why you believe it than the label associated to these beliefs. There's hardly a clear definition of each of those labels, anyways, and many differences between people of the same group. Two YECs may not have the axact same view of Creation, and the same is true of OECs, TES, etc...

Problem clearly is that I'm having a hard time knowing what to believe.

Loudmouth · Dec 13, 2005

Morallyangelic said:
So one says we came from God and one says we came from Monkeys?

Speaking as a former Christian and current agnostic. Young Earth Creationists, Old Earth Creationists, and Theistic Evolutionists all claim that God created humans and all life on Earth. YEC's and OEC's claim that all life came about through God speaking them into existence. TE's claim that God used Evolution just as God uses Gravity to keep the planets in orbit. I have a lot of respect for the Catholic Churche's semi-official position: God used evolution to make man's physical body while God used His supernatural force to give man a soul. This is a position that even agnostics and atheists will never have a problem with.

Just so you know, evolution had nothing to do with me leaving the church. It had to do more with faith than scientific evidence. I would feel sorry for you if you gave up your faith over something as spiritually insignificant as a scientific theory. Us agnostics aren't miserable, so we don't need company.

Oliver · Dec 13, 2005

You mean people who think God exists but had no hand whatsoever in Creation? Well, I don't know if there are many people sharing this belief, but I guess they'd be classified as TEs too since they are theists and accept evolution.

But in my experience, people who think God had nothing to do with Creation tend to not be Christians, and are usually agnostic or atheists (at least on these forums). There may be other religions though who don't ascribe (is it good english?) a creative role to their god(s), I honestly don't know.

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