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Andrew · Feb 17, 2003

Salvation isn't a single moment, it's a lifestyle that spans a lifetime.

you're mixing up salvation (born again) with working out your salvation. you are saved in an instant (nobody takes a lifetime to get born) but you take a lifetime to understand, appreciate and walk in the fullness of your salvation.

Romans 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

this doesnt seem like its describing a lifetime process.

4Jesus · Feb 17, 2003

14th February 2003 at 01:00 AM Serving4Christ said this in Post #47

hmmm....don't know what to say about that one.  Your head aint spinning 360 degrees is it?  No split pea soup yet?  just wondering...

Actually, panic attacks have been linked to low levels of serotonin in the brain, it is also shown to be a genetic process, passed down from generation to generation.  The same medication used to treat depression has been proven to rid people of panic disorders.  Several new developments in treating panic disorders have come within the past couple of years.  Paxil seems to be the choice for ridding unwanted panic attacks, and a nice long prayer to God for the development of such great medicine!

 

 

As to why you have them?     

This post has made the most sense I have read so far! I personally was taking medication (too long of a story) and started having panic attacks. I realized it was the medication and when I stopped taking it the attacks stopped. If it was just a matter of prayer, then the example of Paul praying three times for relief and not getting it, is a lie. Thank God He has put a burden on the hearts of good men and women to become doctors.

4Jesus · Feb 17, 2003

14th February 2003 at 01:21 AM Michie said this in Post #50

Ok Andrew.

But i still think we disagree.

Not all illnesses or disorders are attributed to demons.

Christians do get ill, they do fear & they do suffer.

Some do not get healed.

There are those in different countries that are hungry & persecuted.

God promised us eternal life.

But I don't think He ever said things will always be easy here.

It is according to His will, not ours.

Sometimes things that according to our flesh are not pleasant but God seems to have the knack for turning these situations to His glory.

I have a real propblem with some of these lines of thinking because it seems to point the finger at the hurting.

I do not think it is possible for a believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit to be possessed with demons.

I don't see the two co-opting someone.

A house divided cannot stand.

Hey Michie!

I don't think I could have said it better. Paul was a prime example that Chrisitians suffer while they are on this earth but the Lord told him that His grace was sufficient for him. Some don't want to live by God's grace they want to believe they can control God with prayer or laying on of hands and correct everything "they" see as wrong.    

Michie · Feb 17, 2003

4Jesus!

You said:
"I don't think I could have said it better. Paul was a prime example that Chrisitians suffer while they are on this earth but the Lord told him that His grace was sufficient for him. Some don't want to live by God's grace they want to believe they can control God with prayer or laying on of hands and correct everything "they" see as wrong."

Exactly!

Thank's!

SpiritPsalmist · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 01:52 PM Michie said this in Post #85

4Jesus!

You said:
"I don't think I could have said it better. Paul was a prime example that Chrisitians suffer while they are on this earth but the Lord told him that His grace was sufficient for him. Some don't want to live by God's grace they want to believe they can control God with prayer or laying on of hands and correct everything "they" see as wrong."

Exactly!

Thank's!

As far as I can see no-one believes they can control God.  If God says it that means it's the truth.  Would anybody argue with that statement.

Since God is the One Who says it, that means that I can bank on the truth that God promised me healing, "by His stripes we are/were healed".

Yes, as long as we are on this earth we will suffer, but that does not involve sickness.  Sickness may come, we may suffer, but that is not the suffering that was being referred to.  The suffering being referred to in the scriptures is suffering for "the gospel", "for His Name sake".   That goes way deeper than physical sickness.

By His grace being sufficient, God was saying, "Paul, everything you need is found in Me."  Paul had a "thorn".  As Paul learned to direct his attention more and more on the face of Jesus (we all could learn to do more of that. Paul was not exempt from being human), that "thorn"  would no longer be a distraction because Paul's attention would be on the Lord.  The Lord did not tell him "No". He told him to re-direct his attention.  Off the thorn and on to Him.

SnuP · Feb 17, 2003

Yesterday at 06:55 PM humblejoe said this in Post #81

I'm sorry, but psychoses don't vanish in the blink of an eye. Coping is a step in the right direction, toward deliverance. You ask any person that's been through Alcoholics Anonymous if there is such a thing as instant deliverance.

It's the same thing as the concept of salvation. Salvation isn't a single moment, it's a lifestyle that spans a lifetime. It would be foolish to think that a person goes from completely sinful to a perfect saint in a single instant by saying a single prayer and "getting saved". Besides, what led up to that prayer? What things happened in that person's life that led up to that moment? How many times did God caress their heart gently, letting them know He was there, ready for them the moment that they were ready to acknowledge Him? Delivered in an instant? I don't think so...

Coping is trusting in man, deliverance is trusting in God.

Caedmon · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 10:25 PM SnuP said this in Post #87 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659800#post659800)

Coping is trusting in man, deliverance is trusting in God.

Ah, well our definitions must differ, because using your statement, I believe that I am being delivered, by God, a little more every day.

Now if you see deliverance as an instantaneous event, again, I'll recommend that you ask anyone that's been through Alcoholics Anonymous whether or not instantaneous deliverance is a common reality.

The fact is, no matter what you call it, if a person is trying to get help for a problem that she has, then she is doing something, which is more than nothing, and I don't believe that a proactive mentality such as that can be anything but from God.

SnuP · Feb 17, 2003

Jesus is the only real answer. Any answer that does not include His way of delivering is not of God. Coping is mans answer that allows man to exist within life without having his darkness dealt with. It is darkness, do you really believe that God is satisfied with you just coping with it, when the prurpose of sending His Son was to remove all darkness from our lives.

And yes God does deliver achololics instantly.

Caedmon · Feb 17, 2003

Today at 11:22 PM SnuP said this in Post #89 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659901#post659901)

Jesus is the only real answer.

Jesus's a cool guy. He gave me his Mother.

Any answer that does not include His way of delivering is not of God.

Don't I know it!

By the way, who "delivered" Jesus?

Coping is mans answer that allows man to exist within life without having his darkness dealt with.

Man's answer?

Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household. - John 19:27, NASB

It is darkness, do you really believe that God is satisfied with you just coping with it, when the prurpose of sending His Son was to remove all darkness from our lives.

Darkness?

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; - Revelation 12:1, NASB

And yes God does deliver achololics instantly.

I thought that alcoholism was an incurable condition that could only be coped with. But don't take my word for it, ask your family physician.

Andrew · Feb 18, 2003

Hey humblejoe,

Have you become a Catholic? I see your signatures have a lot to do with Mary. I find it strange for a protestant to be so 'in love' with Mary.

Caedmon · Feb 18, 2003

Today at 02:52 AM Andrew said this in Post #91 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=660148#post660148)

Have you become a Catholic?

Not yet... but I'm not a Protestant either.

I see your signatures have a lot to do with Mary. I find it strange for a protestant to be so 'in love' with Mary.

Why? Martin Luther was "in love" with her too.

SnuP · Feb 19, 2003

I do not rely upon a physician to determine spiritual truths.

Nor will I get in a discussion about your perticular way of coping, as it will only lead to a debate about the validity of certain dotrinal beliefs that can only result in one of us being warned by a moderator.

Let it suffice to say that I do not perticurally agree with your use of the persona of Mary as a tool for deliverance, as being biblical.

And that any coping method is substandard to the will of God for man to be free of darkness, and only leave the user of those methods inslaved to a deeper bondage.

After stating this I believe that this line of discussion should be terminated since we are obviouly at an impass and also for the reasons stated earlier.

But be blessed, and I hope you will not take this as comdemning of your beliefs.

Caedmon · Feb 19, 2003

Today at 12:13 AM SnuP said this in Post #93 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=662164#post662164)

I do not rely upon a physician to determine spiritual truths.

Nor will I get in a discussion about your perticular way of coping, as it will only lead to a debate about the validity of certain dotrinal beliefs that can only result in one of us being warned by a moderator.

Let it suffice to say that I do not perticurally agree with your use of the persona of Mary as a tool for deliverance, as being biblical.

And that any coping method is substandard to the will of God for man to be free of darkness, and only leave the user of those methods inslaved to a deeper bondage.

After stating this I believe that this line of discussion should be terminated since we are obviouly at an impass and also for the reasons stated earlier.

But be blessed, and I hope you will not take this as comdemning of your beliefs.

Not at all.

And with your permission, I'd like to start a new thread in IDD with your post.

SnuP · Feb 19, 2003

Please post the address to that discousion. I'd would be interested in whatever comes from it.

Caedmon · Feb 20, 2003

Here is my new thread in IDD: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=664325#post664325

4Jesus · Feb 20, 2003

17th February 2003 at 02:11 PM Quaffer said this in Post #86

Yes, as long as we are on this earth we will suffer, but that does not involve sickness.  Sickness may come, we may suffer, but that is not the suffering that was being referred to.  The suffering being referred to in the scriptures is suffering for "the gospel", "for His Name sake".   That goes way deeper than physical sickness.

By His grace being sufficient, God was saying, "Paul, everything you need is found in Me."  Paul had a "thorn".  As Paul learned to direct his attention more and more on the face of Jesus (we all could learn to do more of that. Paul was not exempt from being human), that "thorn"  would no longer be a distraction because Paul's attention would be on the Lord.  The Lord did not tell him "No". He told him to re-direct his attention.  Off the thorn and on to Him.

What else could:

"a thorn in the flesh" 2Cor.12:5-7

mean  

And my tempation which was in my flesh ye dispised not, nor rejected; but recieved me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Galatians 4:14

Paul's physical ailment may have been repulsive to the Galatians who viewed it. The purpose of his statement was: since you have treated me so well when I looked physically offensive, will you now mistreat me by embracing a false gospel?

SnuP · Feb 20, 2003

The problem is that you are making an asumption on this scripture. Why not just take the scripture at face value.

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

A messenger of satan. If sickness is a messenger of satan, what massage from satan would it be carring. For that matter, what message from satan is your sickness carring. And how does sickness deliver that message. Doesn't satan have better messengers then sickness to deliver his message? Like a messenger that can accually speak? Like a demon. How great is it a leap of logic to believe that the messenger of satan what an accually being that delivered messages, like say... a demon?

In addition the word buffet means to harrass, to prod, or poke. what sickness behaves in that matter?

4Jesus · Feb 21, 2003

Yesterday at 11:44 PM SnuP said this in Post #98

The problem is that you are making an asumption on this scripture. Why not just take the scripture at face value.

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

A messenger of satan. If sickness is a messenger of satan, what massage from satan would it be carring. For that matter, what message from satan is your sickness carring. And how does sickness deliver that message. Doesn't satan have better messengers then sickness to deliver his message? Like a messenger that can accually speak? Like a demon. How great is it a leap of logic to believe that the messenger of satan what an accually being that delivered messages, like say... a demon?

In addition the word buffet means to harrass, to prod, or poke. what sickness behaves in that matter?

Don't frustrate the word of God. Galatians 4:14...the temptation that was in my flesh, ye despised not....how could they see a prod or poke? It had to be something they could see for them to despise it. How could Paul be buffeted by a messenger of satan if it was not for the fact that God allowed it just as He did with Job.

SnuP · Feb 22, 2003

I can consede that these two scriptures might be related, but I will not make the assuption that they deffinately are. It is also not much of a logical leap to believe that what ever ailment Paul was refering to in Galations, he got over and was therefore able to leave. Since it was the ailment that caused him to stay and therefore giving position to the preaching of the gospel to them. Or one could say that Paul, like Jonah, wasn't listening to God, when he first attempted to leave and out of the lack of light God allowed a temperary ailment to hinders Paul's plans so that the message could go forth to the Galations also.

In any case, it does not mean that what is described in 2 cor is the exact same problem presented in Galations. And it would be another assumption on your part to say with certainty that it is.

SpiritPsalmist · Feb 22, 2003

20th February 2003 at 05:07 PM 4Jesus said this in Post #97

What else could:

mean  

Paul's physical ailment may have been repulsive to the Galatians who viewed it. The purpose of his statement was: since you have treated me so well when I looked physically offensive, will you now mistreat me by embracing a false gospel?

"my temptation which was in my flesh". Sounds to me like it was something he got over. 

As previously pointed out it's two different ref's in two different books, and there is nothing that signifies they were the same issue.  And if it was, well. . .then we see it did not go to the grave with him.

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