Scottish Independence

lismore · Jan 13, 2012

Dragons87 said:
Yes. But this was in 1916. A lot has changed since then.

True. England has lost it's Empire and it's great power status. There are international bodies that would intervene.

However the similarities are there too. A party which wants Independence won an overall majority in Scotland. Cameron and Clegg should butt out of what doesn't concern them............lest they make an inevitable process bumpier.

SithDoughnut · Jan 13, 2012

lismore said:
True. England has lost it's Empire and it's great power status. There are international bodies that would intervene.

However the similarities are there too. A party which wants Independence won an overall majority in Scotland. Cameron and Clegg should butt out of what doesn't concern them............lest they make an inevitable process bumpier.

Thing is, it does concern them, at the very least on a logistical level. We'd have to move all UK government property out of Scotland to start with, as well as dealing with the concept of citizenship and a myriad of other issues.

theFijian · Jan 14, 2012

lismore said:
One positive note is that the Tory scallywags and their Liberal hirelings have absolutely no authority in Scotland. The Tories hold only one seat in Scotland and have no mandate for any say in any decisions here.

How many Conservative and Lib Dem MSPs are there?

camperdown9 · Jan 14, 2012

Hi

I don't know what I really feel about an independent Scotland. I mean "if" it happens how long before an independent Wales, maybe then Northern Ireland. What next there is a group of people in Cornwall calling for independents. If we get that far which I am sure we won't then how long before the people of London and the South East start ask why are we paying for the less wealthy parts England?

Alex

Nabobalis · Jan 14, 2012

lismore said:
In that case it would be a referendum to decide between independence and 'devolution max'.

That one should be a UK wide referendum.

HantsUK · Jan 14, 2012

SithDoughnut said:
Thing is, it does concern them, at the very least on a logistical level. We'd have to move all UK government property out of Scotland to start with, as well as dealing with the concept of citizenship and a myriad of other issues.

Agreed.

It's not just about Scotland being an independent country but also the all the many logistical issues in the divorce settlement. The biggest divorce settlement in history? And the biggest divorce bill to go with it? This will have costs and implications for the remainder of the UK (R-UK). So, shouldn't the R-UK also have some say? Or perhaps Scotland would pay all the costs? It's not about splitting everything, but the costs and difficulty of doing so.

Businesses with operations in both countries would need to decide where to put their HQ, and then go through all the legal and accounting difficulties in setting up a foreign operation. Many, at this very difficult economic time, would not be able to afford this.

This would be a very good time to be a lawyer or accountant working in this highly specialist area.

Mind you, there could be some big benefits to the R-UK. I would assume that, for example, RBS would remain Scottish? In which case, Scotland would have to repay to R-UK approx £41B to take over the entire bail-out costs paid by the UK (estimated £45B).

UK Fred · Jan 14, 2012

Dragons87 · Jan 14, 2012

In my opinion the SNP seems to be rushing things a bit. Devolution is less than 20 years old, and too much of Scotland is still tied in with England. Yes, the SNP were elected to form a majority government for the first time etc. etc. But how much of that is actually down to a desire for independence? Did it simply reflect the then UK-wide distaste for the main national parties?

But I understand the SNP's urge. The next election is but a few years away, and if they don't push for a referendum now, it might never happen. But I think they'd lose, whether it is held now or held in 2014. Independence sounds brilliant, and although relations between the Scots and the English aren't the best, best, best in the world, they are far better than the relations that led to break-ups in the past. Once people see past the waffly "glory" that independence brings to the land and start crunching the numbers, they might lose appetite.

And if someone's going to mess about with the constitutional arrangements of my country, I would very much like to have a say. I don't count myself English - I count myself a Londoner.

GodsDaughter1981 · Jan 14, 2012

Paradoxum said:
Hi,

How do you feel about the SNP pushing for Scottish Independence from the UK?

I think it'll be good, actually. Did you know that the Fossil Fuel Levy imposed on Scottish oil fields is given directly to Westminster? Then out of that - only PART of it, mind - comes our pocket money, or "block grant": UK Coalition pressed over Fossil Fuel Levy

Nabobalis said:
If the Scottish people want to leave, I won't stop them but I feel that this current push is just for Alex Salmond ego and wanting to be called President/Prime Minister. I think people should be able to call them selves, Scottish, English, welsh etc and British, just like Americans. I think it is a shame that people won't do that.

Admittedly, I did for a long time think that Alex Salmond was a bit pompous and arrogant. But I've come to realise that it's pride in his country, no some sort of personal aggrandizement. When David Cameron acts all smug, nobody accuses him of being pompous and arrogant, he's "proud to be the British Prime Minister". So why the different when it comes to Alex Salmond?

If they do leave, I think we should give them nothing, no military hardware of any kind, everything that belongs to the RAF, Navy and Army should be moved out of Scotland and they can start from scratch. I admit, it is extreme. But hey, I'm not breaking up the Union.

What, not even if we've paid tax towards it since the inception of each of these forces? That seems unfair.

seeking_perfection said:
Looking at the proposal realistically, it is a shockingly bad idea for Scottish people. Except for some kind of initial rush of adrenaline at being independent, I don't see any of the benefits. Small population (smaller than London!) with a much reduced ability to spend, provide services, compete on a world stage politically or economically, sustain a military defence. The union is good for all members, despite the usual anti-English nonsense.

No. The union is good for the South East of England. Everyone else is worse off because of it, as all revenues end up sucked into the black hole known as the City, and relatively little makes it back out to the "regions" again.

Celtic D said:
England stands to loose more than us, or else they would have let us break away long ago!!!

Agree. If we're such a bunch of subsidy-junkie, sponging Jocks (according to the daily mail), why haven't we been kicked out of the Union and made to pay our own way by now??

I can't help but feel that the natural state for any nation is to be independent. It's not anti-Englishness, or anti-anything for that matter. After all, we all celebrated when South Sudan became independent, so why the horror and outrage when Scotland wants to do the same?

Also, why all the over-emotive language? "separation"? "divorce"? "tearing our fine nation to pieces"? What, seriously? I've never heard such language used before when other nations were achieving their independence, so I'm confused as to why it applies here?

lismore · Jan 14, 2012

Dragons87 said:
In my opinion the SNP seems to be rushing things a bit. Devolution is less than 20 years old, and too much of Scotland is still tied in with England.

There are a lot of English people who live in Scotland, particularly the Highlands, I know some of them- lovely people. Hope more English people migrate up here.

Hopefully good relations between Scottish and English people will continue, no matter what happens.

The proposed referendum is almost three years away. A lot could happn before then!

The Queen is a popular Monarch but a very old lady. If she were to pass away and Charles and Camilla became monarchs, I think this would be very unpopular in Scotland.

lismore · Jan 14, 2012

Nabobalis said:
That one should be a UK wide referendum.

I don't think it would be. Unless the English people were to ask for their own Parliament in which Scottish MPs couldn't vote on English matters?

But the issue I think is that now Scotland has a parliament pulling in a different direction from Westminster the long-term breakup of the union is inevitable. Devolution was the death knell of the Union.

lismore · Jan 14, 2012

Dragons87 said:
Once people see past the waffly "glory" that independence brings to the land and start crunching the numbers, they might lose appetite.

That's why the referendum is planned to be so far away, there are many changes that have to happen first.

I think the SNP are hoping Ian Duncan Smith will cut the huge Social Security Bill for Glasgow and take the flak for the perceived heartlessness. Then an independent Scotland would have a smaller benefit bill? The Thatcher Government turned much of Scotland into a post-industrial wasteland.

Much in the same way of the Ulster Peace Process. The Republic Of Ireland realised it would be unable to pay the benefits bill for Ulster in a United Ireland, therefore came Devolution and Peace. If there is to be a United Ireland in the future Northern Ireland would have to be de-toxed.

Judy02 · Jan 14, 2012

I wonder how long I'll be allowed to have a Union Jack flag up for on CF...?

Nabobalis · Jan 14, 2012

lismore said:
I don't think it would be. Unless the English people were to ask for their own Parliament in which Scottish MPs couldn't vote on English matters?

But the issue I think is that now Scotland has a parliament pulling in a different direction from Westminster the long-term breakup of the union is inevitable. Devolution was the death knell of the Union.

You can not have devo max without having that everywhere.

lismore · Jan 14, 2012

Nabobalis said:
You can not have devo max without having that everywhere.

But then if Defence was shared would there not still be a shared parliament?

I think Devolution has opened up a situation that is unworkable in the long term.

Nabobalis · Jan 14, 2012

lismore said:
But then if Defence was shared would there not still be a shared parliament?

I think Devolution has opened up a situation that is unworkable in the long term.

If we are to have devo max, the UK would become similar to the USA. State governments (England,Wales,Scotland and Northern Ireland) and a feudal government which handles international affairs. It can't work any other way.

GodsDaughter1981 · Jan 14, 2012

True, that, Nabobalis. Although, I do think it's entirely right that the English people should be jumping up and down and screaming at their MP's to form an English Parliament. I think it's a disgrace that such a lovely country as England (I'm totally in love with rural Kent after visiting last year!) doesn't have a democratically elected parliament of its own.

It seems to me that just lumping England as "British" while the Scots, Welsh and Irish all have our own parliaments or assemblies is doing the English people a huge disservice.

Also, and this is for everyone - when deciding whether or not Scottish independence is a good or bad thing, have a look at this report; it's a bit of an eye-opener: Professor Andrew Hughes Hallett explains why Scotland subsidises the UK, not the other way round - Go Lassie Go

There's also this one, the McCrone Report. In the case of this one, it's the outright lies that were told by the British Government that really get to me
- bit of info on wiki here: McCrone report - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- and here's the actual report if anyone fancies a bit of reading http://www.oilofscotland.org/MccronereportScottishOffice.pdf

GodsDaughter1981 · Jan 14, 2012

DeanPaul545 said:
I think you will find that it is Scotland that has too much say in the affairs of England. A recent example would be University fees, where Scottish MP's voted in favour of rising fees for English students, but the sneaky bugars made sure that it remained free for their own Scottish students. Yet English MP's had no say in the fees of Scotland. How is that fair? I find that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland receive more attention than England at times. They are given the special treatment

Indeed. The "West Lothian Question". Note how most if not all of the MP's who voted yes to rising fees for English students but no to fees for Scottish students were Labour MP's. They're a disgrace both sides of the border.

But I digress. Rant over

GeminiMoon · Jan 14, 2012

GodsDaughter1981 said:
Indeed. The "West Lothian Question". Note how most if not all of the MP's who voted yes to rising fees for English students but no to fees for Scottish students were Labour MP's. They're a disgrace both sides of the border.

But I digress. Rant over

Couldn't agree more. Labour are the scum of the entire UK!

UK Fred · Jan 14, 2012

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