Scientific INterpretation of Evidence

[GodSaves]

Am I the only one who has noticed that almost all Theistic Evolutionists believe the interpretation given by scientists is absolutely correct and cannot possible even be wrong?

I have seen that many TE's state if God created as Genesis states then God has deceived us.

Has man elevated scientific interpretation of evidence above God's Word? That if God did in fact created as said in Genesis then God is a deceiver. This sounds to me that there is no possible way that the interpretation of the evidence given by scientists could be wrong, in fact it sounds to me that it is infallible and innerant. So much so that it is above God's Word.

I am sure there are some TE's who aren't this insistant that the interpretation of the evidence is infallible and innerant that they would question God as a deceiver if they are wrong.

This is a trust issue. Faith is trust. Trust in God is essential to our faith and salvation.

 

[Remus]

I've noticed this, but I would guess that the stance of infallible science comes more from a defensive position. We’ve all been there where we are forced into defending a position that we normally wouldn’t have. Those are the “how did I get here” arguments. Why they give scientists more credit than the Bible? I don’t know. I think many of them have been convinced that evolution is responsible for diversity, which leaves them few options with how to deal with the Bible.
The “God a deceiver” argument seems to be a false dilemma. Or would that be a catch-22? I haven’t fully decided on this one yet. Basically, on what basis have they determined that God can’t be a deceiver? They can’t use the Bible since its authority would already be weakened.

 

[mhess13]

To me it all comes down to where you put your faith.

-in God and His word
OR
-man and his guesses

 

[GodSaves]

I have been surprised that many TE's dont even question whether the interpretation given by scientists, which for the most part are ungodly, is wrong. It seems to me this is not even something to consider, hence God must be a deceiver, or as Vance rather put it God created deceptively.

Deceiver, deceptively, is there really any difference?

 

[Andy D]

I think i recall many times Satan being called a deceiver...isnt it strange now that some people are making out God or His word to be the deceiver...seems more and more people are being deceived on issues that were always so clear just a few years ago but now as man 'becomes wiser' in his own wisdom, he changes the interpretation of the Bible so that not only athiests can believe in evolution now but also people from Christian backgrounds. I noticed Billy Graham's stance shows that many people dont think of the consequences of beliving in evolution:

I believe that God created man, and whether
it came by an evolutionary process and at a certain point He took this
person or being and made him a living soul or not, does not change the fact
that God did create man. ..... whichever way God did it makes no
difference as to what man is and man's relationship to God."

(Quoted in David Frost, 1997, Billy Graham: Personal Thoughts of a Public Man, p. 72-74.)

Fact is, it does make a difference because we were created soo special and in the image of God and had a soul breathed into us, life, from God. Evolution has tried to explain this but has never ever been able to give a Biblical backing to their theories of man having a soul or when we became a man in God's image as opposed to an ape. I mentioned this and one person who sat on the TE side of the fence but only just commented to me that they had NEVER thought of this before and thanked me. If evolution cannot answer the spiritual questions because science is bound by the physical realm then how can one expect to explain the actions of God using purely physical evidence?? Couldnt the scientific interpretations be incorrect even though they could look like plain facts? Afterall, put God into the equation and who knows what evidence we would have? We have to make assumptions on either side, TE's and YEC's, in order to interpret most of the physical evidence. The difference is that we who believe in the creation account generally beleive the Bible to be inerrant and infallible and 100% truth (apart from translating errors). Generally the same is not said for TE's...although I know there are some exceptions and they I know have questioned their theory a lot when it comes to what parts of the Bible are to be read in what ways.

Remember that we fight against not flesh, but principalities and powers of darkness and our Commander is God so let us keep on teaching what we believe God has shown us and never stop studying and searching for more truth within the Word. I am blessed to have brothers and sisters who dont question the Bible (as to it's accuracy), but rather the interpretation and man's evidence. I think it says in Peter that Scripture is not for private interpretation...maybe someone can explain this more to me...but it was an interesting verse...does that mean we should be open to the Holy Spirit's interpretation alone? In that case, why do so many get it wrong? We cant all be right. Anyhow, I am classed as a fundie and I dont mind hehe.

Why is it, I pray to God to show me clearly if I am wrong on my interpretation of the Scripture and yet I still have no problem with believing Genesis to be a 100% literal account? I am opening myself to the Holy Spirit to lead me...I dont feel anyway lead to look to the world and their scientists to teach me the Scriptures as they should be interpreted....anyhow...you understand me

Blessings
Andy

Would love to hear more on some of these verses

 

[Bushido216]

I would ask, again, that this be put into the general OT (Origins Theology) forum so that TE's can actually comment on this.

I feel that it is highly unfair, and frustrating, to be talked about as a group without being able to respond in anyway to what is being said. Now, I am not saying that you are wrong, or that you are right, only that I would like to be able to put my input in without recieving a warning.

 

[GodSaves]

I would ask, again, that this be put into the general OT (Origins Theology) forum so that TE's can actually comment on this.

I feel that it is highly unfair, and frustrating, to be talked about as a group without being able to respond in anyway to what is being said. Now, I am not saying that you are wrong, or that you are right, only that I would like to be able to put my input in without recieving a warning.

I understand you feel this way. THe only outcome that would happen by this being put into the Origins Theology is arguing and bickering.

You are free to repond, but just don't argue and bicker. There is a way you can actually state your opinion without debating. This is why I put this in this forum. It is so hard to talk in the OT part of the forum because everyone wants to try and prove that they are right and someone else is wrong. And it is done through arguing.

 

[GodSaves]

I think i recall many times Satan being called a deceiver...isnt it strange now that some people are making out God or His word to be the deceiver...seems more and more people are being deceived on issues that were always so clear just a few years ago but now as man 'becomes wiser' in his own wisdom, he changes the interpretation of the Bible so that not only athiests can believe in evolution now but also people from Christian backgrounds. I noticed Billy Graham's stance shows that many people dont think of the consequences of beliving in evolution:

I believe that God created man, and whether
it came by an evolutionary process and at a certain point He took this
person or being and made him a living soul or not, does not change the fact
that God did create man. ..... whichever way God did it makes no
difference as to what man is and man's relationship to God."

(Quoted in David Frost, 1997, Billy Graham: Personal Thoughts of a Public Man, p. 72-74.)

Fact is, it does make a difference because we were created soo special and in the image of God and had a soul breathed into us, life, from God. Evolution has tried to explain this but has never ever been able to give a Biblical backing to their theories of man having a soul or when we became a man in God's image as opposed to an ape. I mentioned this and one person who sat on the TE side of the fence but only just commented to me that they had NEVER thought of this before and thanked me. If evolution cannot answer the spiritual questions because science is bound by the physical realm then how can one expect to explain the actions of God using purely physical evidence?? Couldnt the scientific interpretations be incorrect even though they could look like plain facts? Afterall, put God into the equation and who knows what evidence we would have? We have to make assumptions on either side, TE's and YEC's, in order to interpret most of the physical evidence. The difference is that we who believe in the creation account generally beleive the Bible to be inerrant and infallible and 100% truth (apart from translating errors). Generally the same is not said for TE's...although I know there are some exceptions and they I know have questioned their theory a lot when it comes to what parts of the Bible are to be read in what ways.

Remember that we fight against not flesh, but principalities and powers of darkness and our Commander is God so let us keep on teaching what we believe God has shown us and never stop studying and searching for more truth within the Word. I am blessed to have brothers and sisters who dont question the Bible (as to it's accuracy), but rather the interpretation and man's evidence. I think it says in Peter that Scripture is not for private interpretation...maybe someone can explain this more to me...but it was an interesting verse...does that mean we should be open to the Holy Spirit's interpretation alone? In that case, why do so many get it wrong? We cant all be right. Anyhow, I am classed as a fundie and I dont mind hehe.

Why is it, I pray to God to show me clearly if I am wrong on my interpretation of the Scripture and yet I still have no problem with believing Genesis to be a 100% literal account? I am opening myself to the Holy Spirit to lead me...I dont feel anyway lead to look to the world and their scientists to teach me the Scriptures as they should be interpreted....anyhow...you understand me

Blessings
Andy

Would love to hear more on some of these verses

First, Andy it is nice to see you back posting again! I agree with what you have said here. I too have been praying more often lately to be corrected by God. I do not want to speak wrongly or against Him. I pray that He will correct me, rebuke me, and discipline me if I have been standing up for something that is not true. I too am very open to being corrected. I have asked many TE's here to present scripture that shows God used evolution, the big bang theory, or abiogenesis. None have presented scripture for it. I will only be corrected by scripture or God. I will not just follow any man who says something differently.

The Holy Spirit is the one who is to lead us and teach us in God's Word and God's Love. Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as the teacher. The Holy Spirit is who should be doing the interpretation for us, not us. Unfortunately, many of us have allowed ourselves to become to important. We allow our knowledge to fill our egos. We then don't deny ourselves, we rejoice in ourselves.

Man more often then not gives glory to himself. He thinks how smart he is, how wise he is, how much money he has, how much power he has. This is what man does all the time. We have all done this before in some way or another. You get an A on a test in school and you think wow I am smart, I did good. Fact is, all we have is not ours. All we have didn't come from us. All we have is from God. Our intellect, our bodies, our soul, our everything but sin, has come from God. We created the sin, by going against God. And in sin we wallow praising ourselves in our efforts that we did not attain by ourselves.

Jesus asked the disciples 'who do you say I Am?' Peter responded, "You are the Son of God." Jesus said you know this because My Father has told you.

All we know we praise ourselves for. We turn to someone and say why don't you give me the credit I deserve? Why can't you see I am wise?

We are nothing apart from God. Everything we have is from God, and if anyone deserves thanks, it is God and God alone. This is denying yourself. Realizing that God has given you everything and that the real thanks, He deserves, not us.

The last shall be first and the first shall be the last. To be the greatest in the kingdom you need to be the least. Seek not the rewards here on earth, but the riches that await you in heaven.

Everything in this world is foolishness. I am wicked and evil, the wretch the song speaks of. Only God can deliver me. Wisdom comes from God, not from man and his theories. Wisdom is of God. God said seperate yourselves from this world, for you are not apart of it. Evolution is part of this world because it does not give God Glory. It purposely leaves God out of the creation.

 

[Bushido216]

I understand you feel this way. THe only outcome that would happen by this being put into the Origins Theology is arguing and bickering.

You are free to repond, but just don't argue and bicker. There is a way you can actually state your opinion without debating. This is why I put this in this forum. It is so hard to talk in the OT part of the forum because everyone wants to try and prove that they are right and someone else is wrong. And it is done through arguing.

Yes. But then someone is going to be like "oh can you say that with this, or that" and then what do I do?

I'll probably just ignore this now, so continue. Overall I'd ask that everyone here respect the fact that we don't appreciate being called compromisers and science worshippers anymore than creationists like being called whatever creationists are called.

 

[notto]

As a TE (and I can only speak for myself), I don't accept that science is absolutely correct and cannot possibly be wrong. I accept science that is supported by multiple independent lines of evidence and I reject science that has been falsified. I also understand that even if evolution is wrong, that doesn't automatically make young earth creation right. That would be a fallacy. Evolution could be falsified tommorrow and I would accept that. It hasn't been falsified after many attempts. If it was falsified, it would be replaced by new scientific hypothesis and theory. It would not be replaced by young earth special creation because that has already been falsified.

 

[GodSaves]

Notto, you have shown a great example of how a TE can post in here without trying to debate and/or argue. I thank you!

I wasn't trying to say the if evolution is wrong that creationism is right. I was mainly focusing on the fact that many TE's express themselves to say that if evolution is wrong then God is a deceiver or created deceptively. Both mean the same to me, the outcome still being God deceived. This really makes it sound as if these people believe that the interpretation of the evidence cannot be wrong and if it is God is wrong.(liar, deceiver, deceptive, whatever negative word you would like to equate God with)
God Bless

 

[notto]

Notto, you have shown a great example of how a TE can post in here without trying to debate and/or argue. I thank you!

I wasn't trying to say the if evolution is wrong that creationism is right. I was mainly focusing on the fact that many TE's express themselves to say that if evolution is wrong then God is a deceiver or created deceptively. Both mean the same to me, the outcome still being God deceived. This really makes it sound as if these people believe that the interpretation of the evidence cannot be wrong and if it is God is wrong.(liar, deceiver, deceptive, whatever negative word you would like to equate God with)
God Bless

Personally when I state what you are commenting on, I would state it as "If creationism is right, then God is a deceiver", not "If Evolution is wrong, then God is a deceiver". There is a big difference that goes back to my comment on falsification and acceptance of scientific theories. As I stated in my previous post that evolution could be wrong but that doesn't make creation right. Creation has already been falsified.

 

[Vance]

As a TE (and I can only speak for myself), I don't accept that science is absolutely correct and cannot possibly be wrong. I accept science that is supported by multiple independent lines of evidence and I reject science that has been falsified. I also understand that even if evolution is wrong, that doesn't automatically make young earth creation right. That would be a fallacy. Evolution could be falsified tommorrow and I would accept that. It hasn't been falsified after many attempts. If it was falsified, it would be replaced by new scientific hypothesis and theory. It would not be replaced by young earth special creation because that has already been falsified.

What Notto said.

And really, if you want to know why a TE believes something, why would you not just ask the TE?

The problem of bickering comes in when the question is the "when did you stop beating your wife" type of question, such as "hey, why do you trust man's word over God's?" Well, this will inevitably create an immediate problem because it is begging the question, and implies a false statement: that TE's DO trust man's word over God's. So, when you ask those questions elsewhere, what can you expect?

Instead, ask something like "hey, do you trust man's word over God?" We would say "no, of course not". And that would be the end of that and we could move on.

 

[mhess13]

Why does it kill you guys for us to have our own little forum where people of like mind can sit around and shoot the bull? I don't even go on the TE forum to look even out of curiousity. Why can't we have our own forum without you guys being such babies? Sometimes we don't wanna talk to you guys. You TEs can be VERY tiresome. Go away, let us have our little forum and talk about whatever we want!

 

[notto]

Why does it kill you guys for us to have our own little forum where people of like mind can sit around and shoot the bull? I don't even go on the TE forum to look even out of curiousity. Why can't we have our own forum without you guys being such babies? Sometimes we don't wanna talk to you guys. You TEs can be VERY tiresome. Go away, let us have our little forum and talk about whatever we want!

I think if you re-read this thread, the others participating might disagree with you. I was simply clarifying my personal beliefs as a TE so that when you are shooting the bull in here, you are clearly representing my beliefs when your conversation uses it as a topic. I assumed it would be useful to the discussing to clarify the point of view first hand.

My understanding of this forum was one where creationists could discuss creationist ideas and thought amongst themseves. My understaning of the forum is also that ANYONE can pariticpate, but no debating is to take place. I was not debating, but sharing my personal opinion as a TE, which was the topic of conversation. If you feel any of the posts were against forum rules, then report them. Otherwise, I would encourage you to engage in the discussion if you wish, or start a new tread on creationist ideas.

 

[Andy D]

Personally when I state what you are commenting on, I would state it as "If creationism is right, then God is a deceiver", not "If Evolution is wrong, then God is a deceiver". There is a big difference that goes back to my comment on falsification and acceptance of scientific theories. As I stated in my previous post that evolution could be wrong but that doesn't make creation right. Creation has already been falsified.

But by taking this stance it is leaving no room for any error with regards to YEC being correct. We look at evidence purely from a physical perspective and all have some element of bias. To state that YEC has been falsified, or a global flood, is to state that there is no error at all with any assumptions or interpretation of the evidence. What if a lot of the evidence could be used to prove creation wrong but if there were some factors even of a miraculous nature that we cannot see then creation could be correct?

I think a lot of the decieving is from the devil. Once sin entered this world and the devil was active in decieving people, this world has decayed because of sin just as Adam died when he ate of the fruit....the dying started...his body began to decay and eventually die. I dont think we can ever look at the issue of YEC V TE from purely a physical scientific perspective. It isnt that if YEC is correct, God is a deciever but rather that Satan is the deceiver as we know and the evidence could be deceiving us. Our ways are not God's ways.

I believe God created everything as perfect at the start. Nothing God creates will be anything less than perfect because He is a perfect God. He even said as He created, 'It is good'.

I dont see anything that proves that creation has been falsified. Even though the YEC's can have a thread to just chat amongst themselves I believe we shouldnt say things that directly attack TE's but rather the thoery of evolution. In the normal OT threads we cant discuss Biblical issues regarding creation without been told to present scientific evidence so this is great to have a place we can discuss scientific evidence and compare to the Bible.

 

[notto]

But by taking this stance it is leaving no room for any error with regards to YEC being correct. We look at evidence purely from a physical perspective and all have some element of bias. To state that YEC has been falsified, or a global flood, is to state that there is no error at all with any assumptions or interpretation of the evidence. What if a lot of the evidence could be used to prove creation wrong but if there were some factors even of a miraculous nature that we cannot see then creation could be correct?

I think a lot of the decieving is from the devil. Once sin entered this world and the devil was active in decieving people, this world has decayed because of sin just as Adam died when he ate of the fruit....the dying started...his body began to decay and eventually die. I dont think we can ever look at the issue of YEC V TE from purely a physical scientific perspective. It isnt that if YEC is correct, God is a deciever but rather that Satan is the deceiver as we know and the evidence could be deceiving us. Our ways are not God's ways.

I believe God created everything as perfect at the start. Nothing God creates will be anything less than perfect because He is a perfect God. He even said as He created, 'It is good'.

I dont see anything that proves that creation has been falsified. Even though the YEC's can have a thread to just chat amongst themselves I believe we shouldnt say things that directly attack TE's but rather the thoery of evolution. In the normal OT threads we cant discuss Biblical issues regarding creation without been told to present scientific evidence so this is great to have a place we can discuss scientific evidence and compare to the Bible.

If you care to debate this then feel free to start a topic in the open forums. I won't debate it here. I simply shared my personal opinions as a TE. As far as mainstream science is concerned, young earth creationism has been falsified. Until evidence points to that not being the case, or that the theory of evolution has been falsified, I will continue to look at it as the best explanation for the reality of creation and remain a TE.

 

[GodSaves]

Personally when I state what you are commenting on, I would state it as "If creationism is right, then God is a deceiver", not "If Evolution is wrong, then God is a deceiver". There is a big difference that goes back to my comment on falsification and acceptance of scientific theories. As I stated in my previous post that evolution could be wrong but that doesn't make creation right. Creation has already been falsified.

Wow. This really is the heart of TE thinking, I think in my opinion. This is the real problem. Not whether evolution is true, or creationism is true. It is the simple fact that if someone is wrong, and another interpretation is correct, a person who believes in God will call God a deceiver.

In any case, how do you get off calling God a deceiver in the 'if...then...' case? If I am wrong in my understanding and evolution is how God created, I would never label God a deceiver in a 'if...then..' scenario. That is basically equating God with Satan.

How do you do this as Christian? How do you label God a deceiver if creationism is correct? The only answer I can think of is pride. Man is so prideful in his accomplishments and knowledge that if anything disputes it or disproves it then someone else is to blame.

How do you get off calling God a deceiver if something could be actually true? Are you willing to stand and judge God? That is what you are doing by saying if creationism is true then God is a deceiver. You have judged the Almighty God.

Humility is something man desperately needs. To be humble enough to say that if creationism(or evolution or gap, whatever -- basically if I am wrong) then I misunderstood, I deceived myself and God is not the one who deceived me.

You want to know why creationists do not identify with TE's? It is because almost all TE's on this forum have stated in one way or another that if creationism is true then God is a deceiver or deceptive. I cannot identify with any Christian who will blantantly say that if they are wrong then God is the problem. I guess people have no problem putting themselves in as the one who judges God.

 

[notto]

Wow. This really is the heart of TE thinking, I think in my opinion. This is the real problem. Not whether evolution is true, or creationism is true. It is the simple fact that if someone is wrong, and another interpretation is correct, a person who believes in God will call God a deceiver.

In any case, how do you get off calling God a deceiver in the 'if...then...' case? If I am wrong in my understanding and evolution is how God created, I would never label God a deceiver in a 'if...then..' scenario. That is basically equating God with Satan.

How do you do this as Christian? How do you label God a deceiver if creationism is correct? The only answer I can think of is pride. Man is so prideful in his accomplishments and knowledge that if anything disputes it or disproves it then someone else is to blame.

How do you get off calling God a deceiver if something could be actually true? Are you willing to stand and judge God? That is what you are doing by saying if creationism is true then God is a deceiver. You have judged the Almighty God.

Humility is something man desperately needs. To be humble enough to say that if creationism(or evolution or gap, whatever -- basically if I am wrong) then I misunderstood, I deceived myself and God is not the one who deceived me.

You want to know why creationists do not identify with TE's? It is because almost all TE's on this forum have stated in one way or another that if creationism is true then God is a deceiver or deceptive. I cannot identify with any Christian who will blantantly say that if they are wrong then God is the problem. I guess people have no problem putting themselves in as the one who judges God.

I know God can't be a deceiver so I know that young earth creation is not correct because the creation looks old in a hundred ways. Young earth creation has been falsified by a hundred independent lines of evidence. You are seriously misunderstanding the position and misrepresenting the faith and beliefs of TE's. I would encourage you to continue dialog and discussion before jumping to condemnation and judgement. I am in no way judging God. I am judging the young earth creationists interpretation of the bible. I am as faithful as a Christian as you are and I take issue with your assertions about MY beliefs. They are wrong.

 

[Remus]

I know God can't be a deceiver

How do you know? What led you to this conclusion? Feel free to respond in the OT forum if you are more comfortable there.