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Sins of the individuals of the whole world. That is not the nation(s).
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Sins of the individuals of the whole world. That is not the nation(s).tell that to John who says
And he is the propitiation/atonement for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Leviticus 16:5-10
5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Leviticus 16:15-22
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. 18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Lets take a look at the two goats and who they represent.
Take note of what it says in verse 5 two kids of the goats for a sin offering. The two goats constituted ONE sin offering. Therefore the two goats represent ONE man , JESUS CHRIST.
So lets look at how both goats represent Jesus Christ.
. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
The first goat shows us that Jesus Christ died for our sins, the scapegoat shows us that Jesus Christ made atonement for us and now we stand without sin before God in Christ. The scapegoat shows us that we are resurrected with Christ. The reason that two goats were used was because the one goat was killed (Jesus Christ dying on the cross) and one goat (the scapegoat) represents the resurrected Lord, for Jesus Christ must both die and be resurrected in order for our atonement.
Nu.29:11 speaks of this.
Numbers 29:11
11ONE kid of the goats for a SIN OFFERING; beside the SIN OFFERING of ATONEMENT, and the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering of it, and their drink offerings.
Heb.9:15-28 brings this out very well, lets look at it.
Hebrews 9:15-28
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Note that there is only ONE sacrifice mentioned here , not two, the two goats represent Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The word PROPITIATION means ATONEMENT , and the goat killed and the scapegoat was for the ATONEMENT of the world. This show us that the two goats are a representation of Jesus Christ.
John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world.
This clearly show that the two goats in reference to Jesus Christ, and as the scapegoat took the sins of all upon its head, even as our head (Jesus Christ) took the sins of all upon himself.
You cannot separate the two goats, they must represent the same person or you make someone other than Jesus Christ our ATONEMENT.
Leviticus 16:30
For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
so according to you then Satan is the second goat and is our atonement.
As ONE goat could not be a representation of both life and death two goats were use to represent ONE sacrifice.
Leviticus 16:5-10
5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Leviticus 16:15-22
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. 18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Lets take a look at the two goats and who they represent.
Take note of what it says in verse 5 two kids of the goats for a sin offering. The two goats constituted ONE sin offering. Therefore the two goats represent ONE man , JESUS CHRIST.
So lets look at how both goats represent Jesus Christ.
. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
The first goat shows us that Jesus Christ died for our sins, the scapegoat shows us that Jesus Christ made atonement for us and now we stand without sin before God in Christ. The scapegoat shows us that we are resurrected with Christ. The reason that two goats were used was because the one goat was killed (Jesus Christ dying on the cross) and one goat (the scapegoat) represents the resurrected Lord, for Jesus Christ must both die and be resurrected in order for our atonement.
Nu.29:11 speaks of this.
Numbers 29:11
11ONE kid of the goats for a SIN OFFERING; beside the SIN OFFERING of ATONEMENT, and the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering of it, and their drink offerings.
Heb.9:15-28 brings this out very well, lets look at it.
Hebrews 9:15-28
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Note that there is only ONE sacrifice mentioned here , not two, the two goats represent Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The word PROPITIATION means ATONEMENT , and the goat killed and the scapegoat was for the ATONEMENT of the world. This show us that the two goats are a representation of Jesus Christ.
John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world.
This clearly show that the two goats in reference to Jesus Christ, and as the scapegoat took the sins of all upon its head, even as our head (Jesus Christ) took the sins of all upon himself.
You cannot separate the two goats, they must represent the same person or you make someone other than Jesus Christ our ATONEMENT.
Leviticus 16:30
For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
Agreed on both... and I would suggest that Azazel, where the sin of Israel is symbolically heaped, is a picture of satan rather than messiah. The idea being that the sin goes back to where it came and then is driven away for good.
Ah, sorry Hammy. In that case, I would think my answer is no.Actually, the question was could it be something other than that.
The problem is, most people don't really understand what their oral tradition is. If they took the time to study it, they would come to understand the truth in what you said.You have no idea how accurate their oral tradition was. It was extremely accurate; way beyond anything today.
So every time “world” is used it has the same definition? That will make for some interesting reading.Ah, sorry Hammy. In that case, I would think my answer is no.
Yes I believe John 3:16 qualified “world” as those who believe in Him. So there’s a distinction there.You should probably do a study on “world” and the various ways John uses the word.
Keep forgetting this one. Should do better to fend off the privy demons.Read all about it in the Talmuds.
I think he is pulling our leg.I own 3 Hebrew bibles with commentary and not one of them says this.
What they do say however is that azazel is a god that accepted as property the sins as a sacrifice to himself.
So do you believe in a god called azazel?
So much for the traditions of men
Perhaps because if carried the sins?Interesting. Thanks for the patient explanation. After examining, I think you are right about the two goats, but have one question. Why was the goat that was sent away treated as "unclean" if it represented Jesus?
I know, the picture of life and death is good one and preaches well. But...
Lev. 16:6 Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering for himself and shall make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 Then he shall take the two goats and set them before the Lord at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel. 9 And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord and use it as a sin offering, 10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.
Many bibles translate the bold "as a scapegoat," it is the Hebrew la-azazel. The "la" prefix is for or of... and Azazel... so "for Azazel." This goat is case away, out of the congregation, away from the community... not to be a part of Israel. So I get the picture but sin originated with satan and will be heaped back upon him when we are perfected... an event we all await for.
Not at all. In THAT verse the context is,very clear. I am saying it can only mean that in THAT verse. If you have a verse with world in it in another verse share it, we would look at it individually.So every time “world” is used it has the same definition? That will make for some interesting reading.
Perhaps because if carried the sins?
Grammatically, is that the only use of the word?Not at all. In THAT verse the context is,very clear. I am saying it can only mean that in THAT verse. If you have a verse with world in it in another verse share it, we would look at it individually.
All I am saying is, in that verse, it is saying his work is sufficient for all people for all time.Grammatically, is that the only use of the word?
I don’t think that the wrath of God is satisfied against every person who ever lived. So the context does NOT support it. It does support the use I proposed that John meant people from every tongue, tribe, and nation.
The problem is that it doesn’t say that His work is sufficient for all people. I agree that it is. What it says is that He is a propitiation for the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s wrath is satisfied. If it’s satified against all sin, then there is no reason that any should be sent to hell. It would be unjust. But we know that His wrath remains on some (John 3:36). So you can’t have His wrath both remaining on some while at the same time be satisfied against all.All I am saying is, in that verse, it is saying his work is sufficient for all people for all time.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
World = kosmos, it is Greek and means ornaments (as in Ezekiel 23:40 in the LXX), universe, world, Earth and it's inhabitants, world affairs and a few other words not relevant to this discussion.
Of the possible words, only world or universe really fit here. The reason I believe it is for all time is because of verses like Romans 8:22 ("the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now") as that verse infers an ongoing "panging" that continues today. We also have verses like 2 Cor 5:15 (" He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again") where "all" is "pas" in Greek, which means, "all, any, every, the whole." But beyond me listing off verses, since Yeshua is the way, the truth, and the life and nobody gets to the Father save through the work He did, then we can't say that Abraham, David and others like them get in a different way when Yeshua was clear he was the only way. Since Abraham, David and others are called fathers, brethren and other terms that make them part of the same family to which we belong. We can't read Hebrews 11 knowing the just live(d) by faith and not include those listed as brothers... and therefore, the context of the bible is the work of messiah is applied to all for all time. Those that believe and those who looked forward to the redemption that would come. That all, applied to 1 John 2:2 leads me to believe that 'world' is the planet, it's inhabitants, the universe, and all who ever lived.
Biblical context is we fell and then prophecies began to mount speaking of a coming redemption for the fall. It might have happened 4000 years later, and we look back 2000 years from today... but that event was the event necessary to reverse the curse of sin and death for all who ever lived. The God of love, peace and joy didn't send His son to only save those born after 33AD, and leave off 4000 years of servants and worshipers because they were born on the wrong side of the timeline. His work is once for ALL... and thus the 2 John verse has to fit into that that context. The use of kosmos elsewhere should be taken on a case by case basis.
We don't disagree... we're just going to end up saying the same or similar things using words we are more comfortable with. The bottom line is that sin entered the world by a man (Adam) and was addressed by the second Adam which takes His work back to the first Adam. So sin "for all time" is included in that concept. Now, I don't believe all people are saved, I am not a universalist, but of those who looked forward to His coming or at least the work God would one day do, and those who now look back at the work that was done... are all part of the same family.The problem is that it doesn’t say that His work is sufficient for all people. I agree that it is. What it says is that He is a propitiation for the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s wrath is satisfied. If it’s satified against all sin, then there is no reason that any should be sent to hell. It would be unjust. But we know that His wrath remains on some (John 3:36). So you can’t have His wrath both remaining on some while at the same time be satisfied against all.
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