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Much more suspect.Vatican papers are equally suspect.
No--the 1st goat represents Jesus.
Lev_16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
Dictionaries - Easton's Bible Dictionary - Scapegoat
Scapegoat [N]
Leviticus 16:8-26 ; RSV, "the goat for Azazel" (q.v.), the name given to the goat which was taken away into the wilderness on the day of Atonement ( 16:20-22 ). The priest made atonement over the scapegoat, laying Israel's guilt upon it, and then sent it away, the goat bearing "upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited."
At a later period an evasion or modification of the law of Moses was introduced by the Jews. "The goat was conducted to a mountain named Tzuk, situated at a distance of ten Sabbath days' journey, or about six and a half English miles, from Jerusalem. At this place the Judean desert was supposed to commence; and the man in whose charge the goat was sent out, while setting him free, was instructed to push the unhappy beast down the slope of the mountain side, which was so steep as to insure the death of the goat, whose bones were broken by the fall. The reason of this barbarous custom was that on one occasion the scapegoat returned to Jerusalem after being set free, which was considered such an evil omen that its recurrence was prevented for the future by the death of the goat" (Twenty-one Years' Work in the Holy Land). This mountain is now called el-Muntar.
Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
The Lord's goat was sacrificed for the sins of the congregation---
Lev 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses from sin. It is the slain goat that represents Jesus. The second got originally was not killed--it was left to go put into the wilderness to die bearing the sins of the people that had been transferred from the Lord's goat to the scapegoat.
Lev 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Jesus pays the price for our sins--He is the Redeemer---without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. The scapegoat was not killed in sacrifice nor his blood offered as a sin offering, he was let go alive to die in the wilderness. It also represents Satan in the bottomless pit for 1000 years before he is destroyed and all remnant of sin with him. Later, when the goat was thrown over the mountain--his bones were all broken and he died--Jesus never had broken bones.
Satan bears the blame for all sin. Jesus paid the price for all sin. All the sins that Jesus paid for will be cast unto Satan and destroyed with him.
It is idiomatic... and Yeshua does remove our sin... but the picture is placing it back where it came from. That goat is sent away from the camp never to return... never to return! That is sin being sent back to hasatan and him be permanently exiled from God and His people.
That's how I see it, there are other reasons I see it this way. But if you see it differently, that's fine. It will be whatever it will be and perhaps we're both wrong.
That is sin being sent back to hasatan and him be permanently exiled from God and His people.
I’ll try this. It’s common knowledge (or should be) that John uses the word “world” in at least 8 different ways. So could his use, grammatically, be different than what you think it is?
For instance, could the use be “people from all tongues, tribes, and nations?
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of people from every tongue, tribe, and nation.
You have no idea how accurate their oral tradition was. It was extremely accurate; way beyond anything today.
Azazel was taken out and driven into the wilderness where it met its death either by wild carnivore or (in later years) being driven over a cliff to its death.
No--the 1st goat represents Jesus.
Lev_16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
Dictionaries - Easton's Bible Dictionary - Scapegoat
Scapegoat [N]
Leviticus 16:8-26 ; RSV, "the goat for Azazel" (q.v.), the name given to the goat which was taken away into the wilderness on the day of Atonement ( 16:20-22 ). The priest made atonement over the scapegoat, laying Israel's guilt upon it, and then sent it away, the goat bearing "upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited."
At a later period an evasion or modification of the law of Moses was introduced by the Jews. "The goat was conducted to a mountain named Tzuk, situated at a distance of ten Sabbath days' journey, or about six and a half English miles, from Jerusalem. At this place the Judean desert was supposed to commence; and the man in whose charge the goat was sent out, while setting him free, was instructed to push the unhappy beast down the slope of the mountain side, which was so steep as to insure the death of the goat, whose bones were broken by the fall. The reason of this barbarous custom was that on one occasion the scapegoat returned to Jerusalem after being set free, which was considered such an evil omen that its recurrence was prevented for the future by the death of the goat" (Twenty-one Years' Work in the Holy Land). This mountain is now called el-Muntar.
All that to say you believe the scapegoat is not in reference to Jesus but to another.
It was the scapegoat who took away the sins of the people so please tell me who this scapegoat is if not Jesus Christ?
it is two goats, ONE sacrifice
The fall feasts including Yom Kippur have yet to be fulfilled.
On the personal level, yes; but not the national level.Huh? and here I thought Jesus was the fulfillment of the sacrificial laws.
Wrong--sorry it is hard to read, but I can't get rid of the lines. My computer gets the hiccups. If you would read Leviticus you would get it. Can't be said in 3 words or less.
The one goat was called the Lord's goat--that was the goat slain and whose blood was sprinkled on the veil for a sin offering, it is his blood that is shed--representing the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Without blood there can be no remission of sins.
All the sins of the congregation were placed on the scapegoat after the Lord's goat was slain. Then the goat was led out into the wilderness to die. Later, after a goat had found it's way back to the camp, they started to take the goat and throw it over a mountain, it was dashed to pieces bones broken. Jesus bones were never broken.
Jesus paid the price for our sins--His blood washes our sins away. Satan will bear the blame for those sins. The wilderness also represents the 1000 years Satan will spent in the bottomless pit before being destroyed and all sin with him. The scapegoat is Satan.
On the personal level, yes; but not the national level.
That is what Yom Kippur is about.
For all the individuals in the nations but not for the nations themselves.Yom kipper was once a year for the whole nation. It is a done deal, over kaput in Christ who did it ONCE for ALL
For all the individuals in the nations but not for the nations themselves.
All types of people from all nations.well that might fit if John just said world, but he said WHOLE world and that tells me it is not just for some people out of each nation but for the WHOLE of ALL nations.
agreed so far.
the wilderness is a idiom meaning that the one sins are gone and Satan has no involvement on the day of atonement. Read Heb. 9 again , it is JESUS who bore our sins or takes away our sins.
The sins of the congregation are placed on the Lord's goat--only one goat is called the Lord's, the one slain who's blood is sprinkled on the veil and alter.
Lev_16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
The scapegoat sheds no blood and would not be needed if Jesus paid the price and the blame for our sins. It is the scapegoat that is shed without blood sacrifice. The sins are cleansed by the blood of the Lord's goat--the High Priest then transfers those sins to the scapegoat and he is led away to the wilderness---later thrown over a mountain and dashed to pieces. Jesus, as our High Priest. will lay the blame for all sin right on the head of Satan and he and all sin are destroyed. Jesus is not to blame for our sins--He aid the price and cleanses us from them. Satan is to blame. But if you prefer to have your non biblical version---go right ahead.
All types of people from all nations.
That fits just fine.
No, in context, Paul is stating all types of men. Same thing Paul does in Titus 2:11.not really. John is making the same distinction here as Paul does in 1 tim. 4:10 and Paul makes it clear it is for ALL MEN.
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