SBC statement on Calvinism and Arminianism

JM · Jun 30, 2013

98cwitr said:
But there is a Law...Christ's Law enacted now, and Mosaic Law shows us still what sin is. So there is no such thing as non-imputed sin. To suggest otherwise is to say the polytheistic indigenous island tribes are rather spot free in the sight of God, since they don't know they are sinning...doesn't make sense.

Exactly.

SeventhValley · Jun 30, 2013

False the tribes children have non-imputed sin. Plus In order for Christ's laws to be understood by this tribes adults and have imputed sin in their hearts Christ must have given grace to all just as Adam gave sin to all. The sinners just resist God's grace and therefore sin.

JM · Jun 30, 2013

One quick example of law before the republication of the covenant of works on Sinai, "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth." (Gen 6:11-12)

How were they 'corrupt before God' without law?

"(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"

Paul uses 'therefore' because he is drawing a logical conclusion to what he had just written.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Rom 5:13-18)

The imputation of guilt for Adam's sin is an inescapable conclusion.

jm

Don Maurer · Jun 30, 2013

JM, you include verse 14 with the context of verse 13 and I think that is very proper. If it were true that before the Mosaic Law, people did not have imputed sin, then infants would not have died before Moses. Yet was not Moses, as an infant himself, in danger of death? Just as verse 14 says, death reigned from Adam to Moses, and so there is imputed sin from Adam to Moses and the infants died. You are right, there was a law before Moses. Where there is a commandment, there is a law.

So then, you are correct, verse 13 is a demonstration that there was law before Moses. SeventhValley seems to be locked on one phrase in verse 13 to the exclusion of the context.

SeventhValley · Jul 1, 2013

Don Maurer said:
JM, you include verse 14 with the context of verse 13 and I think that is very proper. If it were true that before the Mosaic Law, people did not have imputed sin, then infants would not have died before Moses. Yet was not Moses, as an infant himself, in danger of death? Just as verse 14 says, death reigned from Adam to Moses, and so there is imputed sin from Adam to Moses and the infants died. You are right, there was a law before Moses. Where there is a commandment, there is a law.

So then, you are correct, verse 13 is a demonstration that there was law before Moses. SeventhValley seems to be locked on one phrase in verse 13 to the exclusion of the context.

You are confusing no sin(righteousness), with non-imputed sin(death enters and twists creation) and imputed sin(dammning sin) those are three different concepts.

I see your confusion but the three are sepreate things.

To show you an example of the two types of sin in another NT book.

1 John 5:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

SeventhValley · Jul 1, 2013

cont.....

also if you keep reading

Romans 5:12-17

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.(non-imputed sin) 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died(all people), much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.(also avalible to all people) 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)(Jesus Justification is availible to more people than were affected by sin aka everyone who has faith)

JM · Jul 1, 2013

If you get few responses it is because you are continuing in error and will not accept correction. Your interpretation is flawed and glaringly so.

SeventhValley said:
1 John 5:16

The wages of sin is death. All sin leads to death. 1 John 5:16 is about continuing in sin, willingly, proves you are not a believer. Pick up a commentary once in a while it will prove helpful.

abounded to many.(also avalible to all people)

Many does not equal 'all.'

(Jesus Justification is availible to more people than were affected by sin aka everyone who has faith)

What is 'Jesus Justification?' This comment doesn't even make sense. Jesus died for 'many' and not all and what you believe isn't even orthodox Arminianism but something less.

jm

98cwitr · Jul 1, 2013

SeventhValley said:
False the tribes children have non-imputed sin. Plus In order for Christ's laws to be understood by this tribes adults and have imputed sin in their hearts Christ must have given grace to all just as Adam gave sin to all. The sinners just resist God's grace and therefore sin.

So in our tribe analogy, at what age do they transfer the non-imputed sin to imputed sin?

What you're suggesting seems to contradict John 3:5 and John 14:6-7...so help me understand your position.

Don Maurer · Jul 1, 2013

SeventhValley said:
You are confusing no sin(righteousness), with non-imputed sin(death enters and twists creation) and imputed sin(dammning sin) those are three different concepts.

I am a little late to address the verses you quoted, JM already is doing that above.

Heh, how ironic the accusation of confusion above. Did it make you feel better to write that? The irony is that you make the mistake of attaching death to personal sin. That is not what Romans 5 says.

12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
In verse 12, death comes with Adams sin (imputed sin), not our individual sins.

Also, you have speculated that Adam is not the Federal Head of all mankind. You speculate that those under original sin go to hell (those in Adam), and that the leftover ones with personal sin repent and go to heaven.
This is opposite what is taught in Psalm 51:5
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
Did David go to hell? He admits that he was a sinner from his conception in the verse above. This, of course, would be the imputed sin of Adams federal headship as taught in Romans 5.

Don Maurer · Jul 1, 2013

I do not want to gang up on SeventhValley, I probably should back off here, I am the new guy.

JM · Jul 1, 2013

I'm out. I don't have anything else to add and I'm getting sarcastic so it's best I stop now.

Peace.

SBC statement on Calvinism and Arminianism

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