SBC statement on Calvinism and Arminianism

SeventhValley · Jun 25, 2013

Samuel_Rigby said:
I believe scripture teaches a balance in much the same way scripture teaches a balance between God's sovereignty and man's free will. How can both exist together? I don't know, but they must because both are clearly taught in scripture.

Yup the Bible teaches paradox in many places. From a human rationalist perspective it can be either only total antimonianist predestination where life has no rules or meaning or where God gives all grace to come to himself freely.

So the only options are divine paradox, antimonianist meaninglessness,or graced enabled free will.

busdriver72 · Jun 25, 2013

Yup the Bible teaches paradox in many places. From a human rationalist perspective it can be either only total antimonianist predestination where life has no rules or meaning or where God gives all grace to come to himself freely.

So the only options are divine paradox, antimonianist meaninglessness,or graced enabled free will.

Dag-nabbit! Will you quit using them $40 words? Made my head hurt!

JM · Jun 25, 2013

If God chooses everything then rape,murder,adultery,worship of other gods is all part of God's will. You would have to rejoice every time someone was raped. Also if we do not have free will then we are not made in God's image.Yup the Bible teaches paradox in many places. From a human rationalist perspective it can be either only total antimonianist predestination where life has no rules or meaning or where God gives all grace to come to himself freely.

So the only options are divine paradox, antimonianist meaninglessness,or graced enabled free will.

This is a wonderful example of the either or fallacy.

I posted this before:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isa. 45.7

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it? Amos 3.6

As Don Fortner noted in a sermon not so long ago, God still did it.

No matter what you do with the word evil, translate rah it to "wicked," "bad," "hurt," "harm," "ill," "sorrow," "mischief," "displeased," "adversity," "affliction," "trouble," "calamity," "grievous," "misery," and "trouble."

God still did it. The wickedness, the bad, the hurt, the harm, the ill, the sorrow, the mischief, the displeased, the affliction, the trouble, etc. God did it. God does all things.

God: Author of Sin? | Feileadh Mor

Jerome Zanchius:

God, as the primary and efficient cause of all things, is not only the Author of those actions done by His elect as actions, but also as they are good actions, whereas, on the other hand, though He may be said to be the Author of all the actions done by the wicked, yet He is not the Author of them in a moral and compound sense as they are sinful; but physically, simply and sensu diviso as they are mere actions, abstractedly from all consideration of the goodness or badness of them.

Although there is no action whatever which is not in some sense either good or bad, yet we can easily conceive of an action, purely as such, without adverting to the quality of it, so that the distinction between an action itself and its denomination of good or evil is very obvious and natural.

In and by the elect, therefore, God not only produces works and actions through His almighty power, but likewise, through the salutary influences of His Spirit, first makes their persons good, and then their actions so too; but, in and by the reprobate, He produces actions by His power alone, which actions, as neither issuing from faith nor being wrought with a view to the Divine glory, nor done in the manner prescribed by the Divine Word, are, on these accounts, properly denominated evil. Hence we see that God does not, immediately and per se, infuse iniquity into the wicked; but, as Luther expresses it, powerfully excites them to action, and withholds those gracious influences of His Spirit, without which every action is necessarily evil. That God either directly or remotely excites bad men as well as good ones to action cannot be denied by any but Atheists, or by those who carry their notions of free-will and human independency so high as to exclude the Deity from all actual operation in and among His creatures, which is little short of Atheism. Every work performed, whether good or evil, is done in strength and by the power derived immediately from God Himself, in whom all men live, move, and have their being (Acts 17.28). As, at first, without Him was not anything made which was made, so, now, without Him is not anything done which is done. We have no power or faculty, whether corporal or intellectual, but what we received from God, subsists by Him, and is exercised in subserviency to His will and appointment. It is He who created, preserves, actuates and directs all things. But it by no means follows, from these premises, that God is therefore the cause of sin, for sin is nothing but auomia, illegality, want of conformity to the Divine law (1 John 3.4), a mere privation of rectitude; consequently, being itself a thing purely negative, it can have no positive or efficient cause, but only a negative and deficient one[end quote]

Before Zanchius brought us to this point, showing that God acting directly or remotely is not the Author of them in a moral and compound sense, he teaches in Position 2;

That God often lets the wicked go on to more ungodliness, which He does (a) negatively by withholding that grace which alone can restrain them from evil; (b) remotely, by the providential concourse and mediation of second causes, which second causes, meeting and acting in concert with the corruption of the reprobates unregenerate nature, produce sinful effects; (c) judicially, or in a way of judgment. The Kings heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of waters; He turneth it whithersoever He will (Prov. 21.1); and if the Kings heart, why not the hearts of all men? Out of the mouth of the Most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lam. 3.38). Hence we find that the Lord bid Shimei curse David (2 Sam. 16.10); that He moved David himself to number the people (compare 1 Chron. 21.1 with 2 Sam. 24.1); stirred up Josephs brethren to sell him into Egypt (Genesis 50.20); positively and immediately hardened the heart of Pharaoh (Exod. 4.21); delivered up Davids wives to be defiled by Absalom (2 Sam. 12.11; 16.22); sent a lying spirit to deceive Ahab (1 Kings 22.20-23), and mingled a perverse spirit in the midst of Egypt, that is, made that nation perverse, obdurate and stiff-necked (Isa. 19.14). To cite other instances would be almost endless, and after these, quite unnecessary, all being summed up in that express passage, I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things (Isa. 45.7). See farther, 1 Sam. 16.14; Psalm 105.25; Jer. 13.12,13; Acts 2.23, & 4.28; Rom. 11.8; 2 Thess. 2.11, every one of which implies more than a bare permission of sin. Bucer asserts this, not only in the place referred to below, but continually throughout his works, particularly on Matt. 6. § 2, where this is the sense of his comments on that petition, Lead us not into temptation: It is abundantly evident, from most express testimonies of Scripture, that God, occasionally in the course of His providence, puts both elect and reprobate persons into circumstances of temptation, by which temptation are meant not only those trials that are of an outward, afflictive nature, but those also that are inward and spiritual, even such as shall cause the persons so tempted actually to turn aside from the path of duty, to commit sin, and involve both themselves and others in evil. Hence we find the elect complaining, O Lord, why hast Thou made us to err from Thy ways, and hardened our hearts from Thy fear? (Isaiah 63.17). But there is also a kind of temptation, which is peculiar to the non-elect, whereby God, in a way of just judgment, makes them totally blind and obdurate, inasmuch as they are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. (See also his exposition of Rom. 9.)[end quote]

"But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him." 1 Samuel 16:14-23

Now consider Gen. 50: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Here we have one sinful event: The selling of Joseph into slavery and lying to their father about it. Man is sinful. God is righteous...'ye meant...God meant.'

A portion from the quote by Zanchius,

"God, as the primary and efficient cause of all things, is not only the Author of those actions done by His elect as actions, but also as they are good actions, whereas, on the other hand, though He may be said to be the Author of all the actions done by the wicked, yet He is not the Author of them in a moral and compound sense as they are sinful; but physically, simply and sensu diviso as they are mere actions, abstractedly from all consideration of the goodness or badness of them."

Sin found in the decree of God, not by permission but *efficaciously so. It was decreed and willed as a good deed for "he willed it not as sin, but as a mean of glorifying his grace and mercy, justice and holiness: and that this was not a bare and inefficacious permission, but attended with influence." (see Baptist John Gill's Complete Body of Doctrinal and Practical Divinity)

jm

JM · Jun 25, 2013

PS: Many folks believe you can retreat to 'paradox' to explain what appears to be scriptural difficulties. Considering the following:

Quote:

Robert Reymond poses three insuperable obstacles that those averring such an errant view must deal with (Preach the Word, 30-31):

(1) As noted above, the issue of what is and what is not a paradox is totally subjective. To universally claim that such and such a teaching is a paradox would thus require omniscience. How could any one know that this teaching had not been reconciled before the bar of someones human reason?

2) Even when one claims that the seeming contradiction is merely apparent, there are serious problems. f actually non-contradictory truths can appear as contradictories and if no amount of study or reflection can remove the contradiction, there is no available means to distinguish between this apparent contradiction and a real contradiction (ibid.). How then would man know whether he is embracing an actual contradiction (which if found in the Bible [an impossibility; 1 Corinthians 14:33], would reduce the Scriptures to the same level as the contradictory Koran of Islam) or a seeming contradiction?

3) Once one asserts (with Barth and Brunner) that truth may come in the form of irreconcilable contradictions, then, he has given up all possibility of ever detecting a real falsehood. Every time he rejects a proposition as false because it contradicts the teaching of Scripture or because it is in some other way illogical, the propositions sponsor only needs to contend that it only appears to contradict Scripture or to be illogical, and that his proposition is one of the terms...of one more of those paradoxes which we have acknowledged have a legitimate place in our little systems(ibid.). This being the case, Christianitys uniqueness as the only true revealed religion will die the death of a thousand qualifications.

What is our conclusion? Simply this: The Bible does not contain logical paradox. Clark is correct; any so-called logical paradoxes found in Holy Scripture are little more than charley-horses between the ears that can be removed by rational massage; they are the result of faulty exegesis, not Gods Word. Any stumbling in this area will lead to (at least) a fall into neo-orthodox nonsense.

- See more at: The Trinity Foundation - Does the Bible Contain Paradox?

SeventhValley · Jun 25, 2013

Exactly as the above posts stated according to the Calvinist view we are not made in God's image and all is God's will. Therefore sin dose not exist (sin being missing the mark) and their is nothing that displeased God. And rape,murder,and godlessness are all not sin but God's will. All non biblical stances but are enlightenment liberalism used to justify sin.

SeventhValley · Jun 25, 2013

JM said:
PS: Many folks believe you can retreat to 'paradox' to explain what appears to be scriptural difficulties. Considering the following:

Quote:

Robert Reymond poses three insuperable obstacles that those averring such an errant view must deal with (Preach the Word, 30-31):

(1) As noted above, the issue of what is and what is not a paradox is totally subjective. To universally claim that such and such a teaching is a paradox would thus require omniscience. How could any one know that this teaching had not been reconciled before the bar of someones human reason?

2) Even when one claims that the seeming contradiction is merely apparent, there are serious problems. f actually non-contradictory truths can appear as contradictories and if no amount of study or reflection can remove the contradiction, there is no available means to distinguish between this apparent contradiction and a real contradiction (ibid.). How then would man know whether he is embracing an actual contradiction (which if found in the Bible [an impossibility; 1 Corinthians 14:33], would reduce the Scriptures to the same level as the contradictory Koran of Islam) or a seeming contradiction?

3) Once one asserts (with Barth and Brunner) that truth may come in the form of irreconcilable contradictions, then, he has given up all possibility of ever detecting a real falsehood. Every time he rejects a proposition as false because it contradicts the teaching of Scripture or because it is in some other way illogical, the propositions sponsor only needs to contend that it only appears to contradict Scripture or to be illogical, and that his proposition is one of the terms...of one more of those paradoxes which we have acknowledged have a legitimate place in our little systems(ibid.). This being the case, Christianitys uniqueness as the only true revealed religion will die the death of a thousand qualifications.

What is our conclusion? Simply this: The Bible does not contain logical paradox. Clark is correct; any so-called logical paradoxes found in Holy Scripture are little more than charley-horses between the ears that can be removed by rational massage; they are the result of faulty exegesis, not Gods Word. Any stumbling in this area will lead to (at least) a fall into neo-orthodox nonsense.

- See more at: The Trinity Foundation - Does the Bible Contain Paradox?

What is a logical paradox to man is not to God. Unless you believe you are equal to God and can know his mind.

SeventhValley · Jun 25, 2013

Anyways I think the SBC is correct either you don't put a big emphasis on it, or you have to split up the convention.

Btw I still love my calvinist brothers and sisters they live like Arminians or open theists. Lol

JM · Jun 25, 2013

SeventhValley said:
Btw I still love my calvinist brothers and sisters they live like Arminians or open theists. Lol

I appreciate the sentiment of loving your brothers and sisters in Christ and I believe the razz is a play on Spurgeon who said that all believers are Calvinists when on their knees in prayer.

98cwitr · Jun 26, 2013

SeventhValley said:
If God chooses everything then rape,murder,adultery,worship of other gods is all part of God's will. You would have to rejoice every time someone was raped.

I dont rejoice over rapes or murders or sin, but I rejoice at the purpose that they happened and the change for Good they bring. Everything happens for a reason.

98cwitr · Jun 26, 2013

SeventhValley said:
Also if we do not have free will then we are not made in God's image.

Same can be said if we are with sin!

If God is eternally perfect, then He cannot sin. There is a fundamental misunderstanding with the phrase "made in our image." Genesis 1:26 says "our," not "My" Thus being plural we are made in the image of heavenly beings...that is physical image, not metaphysical nor emotional, nor psychological...but simply physical and cognitive.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

And the reason and proof of this is above...we are made in their image so we can rule over the animals and earth...we are superior knowledge and construction to all the other animals. The proof of this is that we are, and have been, the top of the food chain.

This phrase does not mean that we have all the attributes of God.

JM · Jun 26, 2013

98cwitr said:
I dont rejoice over rapes or murders or sin, but I rejoice at the purpose that they happened and the change for Good they bring. Everything happens for a reason.

Yeah, it was the either or fallacy if I ever seen it. Placing us on the horns of a bull to get a predetermined answer.

MrJim · Jun 26, 2013

98cwitr said:
I dont rejoice over rapes or murders or sin, but I rejoice at the purpose that they happened and the change for Good they bring. Everything happens for a reason.

Oh, I'll tell that to the next rape victim and molested child I meet

SeventhValley · Jun 26, 2013

JM said:
I appreciate the sentiment of loving your brothers and sisters in Christ and I believe the razz is a play on Spurgeon who said that all believers are Calvinists when on their knees in prayer.

Yup I was wondering if anyone would catch that.

SeventhValley · Jun 26, 2013

JM said:
Yeah, it was the either or fallacy if I ever seen it. Placing us on the horns of a bull to get a predetermined answer.

Bazinga

JM · Jun 26, 2013

Nice....way to misunderstand a false dilemma (either-or-fallacy)...

now faith · Jun 27, 2013

JM said:
PS: Many folks believe you can retreat to 'paradox' to explain what appears to be scriptural difficulties. Considering the following:

Quote:

Robert Reymond poses three insuperable obstacles that those averring such an errant view must deal with (Preach the Word, 30-31):

(1) As noted above, the issue of what is and what is not a paradox is totally subjective. To universally claim that such and such a teaching is a paradox would thus require omniscience. How could any one know that this teaching had not been reconciled before the bar of someones human reason?

2) Even when one claims that the seeming contradiction is merely apparent, there are serious problems. f actually non-contradictory truths can appear as contradictories and if no amount of study or reflection can remove the contradiction, there is no available means to distinguish between this apparent contradiction and a real contradiction (ibid.). How then would man know whether he is embracing an actual contradiction (which if found in the Bible [an impossibility; 1 Corinthians 14:33], would reduce the Scriptures to the same level as the contradictory Koran of Islam) or a seeming contradiction?

3) Once one asserts (with Barth and Brunner) that truth may come in the form of irreconcilable contradictions, then, he has given up all possibility of ever detecting a real falsehood. Every time he rejects a proposition as false because it contradicts the teaching of Scripture or because it is in some other way illogical, the propositions sponsor only needs to contend that it only appears to contradict Scripture or to be illogical, and that his proposition is one of the terms...of one more of those paradoxes which we have acknowledged have a legitimate place in our little systems(ibid.). This being the case, Christianitys uniqueness as the only true revealed religion will die the death of a thousand qualifications.

What is our conclusion? Simply this: The Bible does not contain logical paradox. Clark is correct; any so-called logical paradoxes found in Holy Scripture are little more than charley-horses between the ears that can be removed by rational massage; they are the result of faulty exegesis, not Gods Word. Any stumbling in this area will lead to (at least) a fall into neo-orthodox nonsense.

- See more at: The Trinity Foundation - Does the Bible Contain Paradox?

Very nice dissertation,

I might add to the Bible does not contain a logical paradox: that man is able to comprehend.

God is the author and finisher of our faith.

98cwitr · Jun 27, 2013

MrJim said:
Oh, I'll tell that to the next rape victim and molested child I meet

At least you'll be telling them the truth and not some sugar coated lie.

JM said:
Yeah, it was the either or fallacy if I ever seen it. Placing us on the horns of a bull to get a predetermined answer.

We're born on the horns of the bull, sir.

Keachian · Jun 27, 2013

SeventhValley said:
Exactly as the above posts stated according to the Calvinist view we are not made in God's image and all is God's will. Therefore sin dose not exist (sin being missing the mark) and their is nothing that displeased God. And rape,murder,and godlessness are all not sin but God's will. All non biblical stances but are enlightenment liberalism used to justify sin.

Yeah, nice misrepresentation of Calvinism there.

MrJim · Jun 27, 2013

Originally Posted by 98cwitr
I dont rejoice over rapes or murders or sin, but I rejoice at the purpose that they happened and the change for Good they bring. Everything happens for a reason.

MrJim said:
Oh, I'll tell that to the next rape victim and molested child I meet

98cwitr said:
At least you'll be telling them the truth and not some sugar coated lie.

A sugar coated lie is telling them they are an innocent victim of an evil crime?

DeaconDean · Jun 28, 2013

Also if we do not have free will then we are not made in God's image.

If the above is the standard by which we are supposed to accept, if/then, to be created in God's image would also entail that we be endued with the same powers as God.

WHich means, if man is created in God's image, then God has a free will, men should have the same free will. (If the above statement is the standard) If man is created in God's image, God as creator, who has the ability to merely think something into existance, man created in His image would have to be able to have the same ability.

You gotta love that kind of logic.

God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the only ones who truly have a "free will", man being created in God's image, should have the same "free will".

Yep, you gotta love that logic.

God Bless

Till all are one.

SBC statement on Calvinism and Arminianism

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