Saved In Sin Or Saved From Sin

[Arthur57]

I want to know your ideas regarding the condition of salvation.

What is the condition of a man, when he enters the Kingdom of God? A sinner justified by grace through faith, or a holy righteous man justified for his righteousness by faith?

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“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

[Tim Myers]

I would have to say "Saved In Sin," because sin is not what we have been saved from........

 

[EphesiaNZ]

[SIZE=-0]Aren't we all sinners, no matter who we are?

1 John 2:2 - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.


[/SIZE]

 

[Arthur57]

How about this:

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48.

 

[Arthur57]

I would have to say "Saved In Sin," because sin is not what we have been saved from........

How about this?

Matthew 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

 

[Tim Myers]

Okay, Arthur....so what do you think that means??......

 

[Arthur57]

Okay, Arthur....so what do you think that means??......

Hm... I like to get more opinion about this before I present my own view.

 

[Arthur57]

OK, seems I wouldn't get new opinions, let’s share my thought.

The Scripture says that Christ would save his believers from sin and not in their sin.
Matthew 1:21 - And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

This is a very great truth of the Gospel that had been overlooked by so many Christians from major denomination.

Jesus will save people (his believers) from their sin. This is saving grace.
Jesus will save people (his believers) in their sin. This is cheap grace.

Let’s start with cheap grace first.

What is cheap grace? Have been answered, it is a belief among Christian that Christ will save them in their sin because they are unable to become holy, righteous and sinless.

OK. Stop here first. Any comment?

 

[Tim Myers]

"......because they are unable to become holy, righteous and sinless."

The world "holy" simply means "set apart"....
The word "righteous" is much harder to define because it has taken on so many meanings over the years....
The word "sinless" presents a problem as well, because are we referring to actually being sinless or to merely being seen as sinless??

 

[Arthur57]

Meanwhile what does the Scripture say?

Regarding perfection:
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect - Matthew 5:48.
Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. Colossians 1:28.
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 2 Peter 3:14.
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thes 5:23.

Regarding holiness:
Because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:16
But as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 1 Peter 1:15
Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 2 Peter 3:11.
so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. 1 Thess 3:13
Blessed are the pure in heart,For they shall see God.Matthew 5:8.

Regarding sinless:
Christ said: "Don't sin anymore!" John 5:14; 8:11; 1 Corrinthians 15:34.

Regarding righteousness:
In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life. Luke 1:75
[FONT=&quot]He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let [/FONT]him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11

Does all these verses indicates or promotes and idea that man enter the kingdom of God as an unholy person, an unrighteous man in himself, not perfect and marred with imperfection of character?

What do you think?

 

[ghendricks63]

Meanwhile what does the Scripture say?

Regarding perfection:
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect - Matthew 5:48.
Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. Colossians 1:28.
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 2 Peter 3:14.
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thes 5:23.

Regarding holiness:
Because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:16
But as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 1 Peter 1:15
Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 2 Peter 3:11.
so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. 1 Thess 3:13
Blessed are the pure in heart,For they shall see God.Matthew 5:8.

Regarding sinless:
Christ said: "Don't sin anymore!" John 5:14; 8:11; 1 Corrinthians 15:34.

Regarding righteousness:
In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life. Luke 1:75
[FONT=&quot]He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let [/FONT]him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11

Does all these verses indicates or promotes and idea that man enter the kingdom of God as an unholy person, an unrighteous man in himself, not perfect and marred with imperfection of character?

What do you think?

Since Paul seems to clearly indicate he is still in bondage to the sin nature it seems to me these verses are only possible to fullfull through the atoning work of Christ which makes us perfect in the sight of God even though there is still sin present within us.

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 7:23-25

 

[Arthur57]

Since Paul seems to clearly indicate he is still in bondage to the sin nature it seems to me these verses are only possible to fullfull through the atoning work of Christ which makes us perfect in the sight of God even though there is still sin present within us.

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 7:23-25

Interesting thought. But is it what the Scripture says?

 

[ghendricks63]

Interesting thought. But is it what the Scripture says?

Interesting question. Especially considering you provided no other view.

Obviously this is exactly what the scripture says since it was a direct quote, (or as accurate as we can be in present times) and my thoughts on it definitely represent what I believe it means.

 

[Arthur57]

Interesting question. Especially considering you provided no other view.

Obviously this is exactly what the scripture says since it was a direct quote, (or as accurate as we can be in present times) and my thoughts on it definitely represent what I believe it means.

Quoted from your earlier post:
Since Paul seems to clearly indicate he is still in bondage to the sin nature it seems to me these verses are only possible to fullfull through the atoning work of Christ which makes us perfect in the sight of God even though there is still sin present within us.

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 7:23-25.

If you continue your reading, you will find out that Paul have find the solution of his problem. it is written in Romans 8:1-4.

So, my question remains.

 

[ghendricks63]

Quoted from your earlier post:
Since Paul seems to clearly indicate he is still in bondage to the sin nature it seems to me these verses are only possible to fullfull through the atoning work of Christ which makes us perfect in the sight of God even though there is still sin present within us.

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 7:23-25.

If you continue your reading, you will find out that Paul have find the solution of his problem. it is written in Romans 8:1-4.

So, my question remains.

Since I obviously HAVE continued in my reading I am well aware of the victory in chapter 8. Of course Paul was quite aware of it as well since he wrote it......annd yet he still wrote these words pertaining to his present condition.

 

[Tim Myers]

"Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven in perfect"

"There are a couple of things we need to understand about this statement. In the first place, the word that is translated “perfect” literally means “be complete.” So often, the New Testament and the Old Testament will describe people as being upright and righteous—not in the sense that they have achieved total moral perfection, but rather that they have reached a singular level of maturity in their growth in terms of spiritual integrity. However, in this statement, it’s certainly legitimate to translate it using the English word perfect. For example, “Be ye complete as your heavenly Father is complete.” Now remember that your heavenly Father is perfectly complete! So if we are to mirror God in that way, we are to mirror him in his moral excellence as well as in other ways. In fact, the basic call to a person in this world is to be a reflection of the character of God. That’s what it means to be created in the image of God. Long before the Sermon on the Mount, God required the people of Israel to reflect his character when he said to them, “Be ye holy even as I am holy.” He set them apart to be holy ones. The New Testament word for that is saints.
Now to the question of whether we can, in fact, achieve moral perfection in this world. If Jesus says to be perfect, the assumption would be that he would not require us to do something that is impossible for us to achieve. Therefore, there are Christians, many Christians, who believe that, indeed, it is possible for a person to reach a state of moral perfection in this life. That view is called perfectionism, and people develop a theology whereby there’s a special work of the Holy Spirit that gives them victory over all sin or all intentional sin that renders them morally perfect in this world. The mainstream of Christianity, however, has resisted the doctrine of perfectionism chiefly because we see the record of the greatest saints in biblical history and in church history who to a person confessed the fact that they, to their dying day, struggled with ongoing sin in their lives. Not the least of which, of course, was the apostle Paul, who talked about his ongoing struggle with sin.
Can a person be perfect? Theoretically, the answer to that is yes. The New Testament tells us that with every temptation we meet, God gives us a way to escape that temptation. He always gives us enough grace to overcome sin. So sin in the Christian life, I would say, is inevitable because of our weakness and because of the multitude of opportunities we have to sin. But on a given occasion, it is never, ever necessary. So in that sense, we could theoretically be perfect, though none of us is."

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/when-jesus-says-be-ye-perfect-your-father-heaven-p/

 

[holyrokker]

A truly righteous person is one who lives by faith.

Abraham believed God, and God considered him righteous because of his faith.

The same standard applies to all humanity.

Faith is an obedient trust.

We don't understand our own motives all them time, nor do we always know the right thing to do, so we will always come up short.

We won't have all the "baggage" to carry around in the New Earth, so sin will not be a problem for those who live this life by faith.

 

[Arthur57]

So in that sense, we could theoretically be perfect, though none of us is."

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/when-jesus-says-be-ye-perfect-your-father-heaven-p/

I fully agree with your post above, except the last wording.

Only God knew who of us is completely perfect, but, we are not going to doubt whether we can or not, just except the word of God and believe. For this perfection is through faith and the Holy Spirit works. And Paul helped us with this text:

1 Cor. 9:24-27.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

After he brought his mind in subjection with the law of God (Romans 8:4-8), next he brought his body, his flesh into subjection to the law of God.

This brought him into complete perfection, and Romans 7 is a past story of him. A past experience.

 

[Arthur57]

Since I obviously HAVE continued in my reading I am well aware of the victory in chapter 8. Of course Paul was quite aware of it as well since he wrote it......annd yet he still wrote these words pertaining to his present condition.

What Paul wrote in Romans 7 about the struggling of the flesh inside him, is his sharing of the knowledge and experience when some on is living with the carnal mind. A past story.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. Romans 7:13-20.

Here Paul explained why if carnally minded, we will always have the struggle of sin in us and will always do what sin wanted, instead to do what we wanted, which is good? Paul explains why carnally minded people could not overcome sin, and gave the reason why.


Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. Romans 8:7.

Never can a carnally minded man live according to the righteous demands of the law, for this mind is enmity against God and not subject to the law of God. In order to overcome sin, first he must have a new mind, the mind of Christ and then live by the Spirit.

Romans 7:24,25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

With the mind of Christ now, he could serve the law of God, but if with the carnal mind, all he can do is serving the law of sin.

 

[Arthur57]

If Paul could serve the law of God with the mind of Christ and a walk after the Spirit, what would happen to him?

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:3,4.

His Master and Savior, Jesus Christ, succeeds in condemning sin in the flesh; succeeds in overcoming sin and living a sinless life. And Paul will walk according to His Spirit, to have the same victory over sin, to have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in him.

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Gal. 20:20.

Why is the law such an important factor, that is must be fulfilled in some one who believe?


Remember, that this righteousness of the law might only be fulfilled if a believer walks after the Spirit, if there is Christ (His Spirit) in him leading his life.



It is clear then, that it is not because the Spirit is in him that the righteousness of the law is automatically fulfilled in him, but it is because he walks after the Spirit, he lives a life led by the Spirit. It is works required here.


What kind of works?