SATAN...Know your enemy

[Tkjjc]

I just wanted to actually ask this question and get some different input. If the Jews for over 3000 years didn't think or conceive of a literal being called Satan,,is there really such a being?

Would God actually create such a being, and for what purpose.

 

[Macca]

I just wanted to actually ask this question and get some different input. If the Jews for over 3000 years didn't think or conceive of a literal being called Satan,,is there really such a being?

Would God actually create such a being, and for what purpose.

As the Bible says; Satan (the accuser) was created as a guardian of the Most High.
14 I ordained and anointed you
as the mighty angelic guardian.
You had access to the holy mountain of God
and walked among the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in all you did
from the day you were created
until the day evil was found in you.
New Living Translation. Eze 28:14-15
He was known as Lucifer. Pride was his downfall. The same major temptation he brings to us. "Did God really say you could not do that;you can be like God.' (You have god in you all things around are god; etc. etc.
Yes he is real. Even Job, the earliest book of the OT mentions him.

 

[armothe]

As the Bible says; Satan (the accuser) was created as a guardian of the Most High.
14 I ordained and anointed you
as the mighty angelic guardian.
You had access to the holy mountain of God
and walked among the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in all you did
from the day you were created
until the day evil was found in you.
New Living Translation. Eze 28:14-15

I don't believe this is speaking of Satan in the first place.

-A

 

[prodromos]

Satan is not my enemy. Sin is my enemy because it separates me from God (though not God from me). Satan can't do anything to me unless I allow him to, which I do each time I fail to do the will of God.

Thus my struggle is not against Satan but against my sin.

 

[Macca]

I don't believe this is speaking of Satan in the first place.

-A

Whether you believe it or not doesn't change anything.

 

[armothe]

Whether you believe it or not doesn't change anything.

Perhaps you should read all of chapter 13 & 14 and find out who the recipeint of Isaiah's admonishment is. I don't see the word Satan or Adversary in that passage anywhere.

-A

 

[Macca]

That does not prove your disbelief.
Many highly respected Bible commentaries agree that it is Satan in Is 14, and also Ezek.

 

[Spade48d]

That does not prove your disbelief.
Many highly respected Bible commentaries agree that it is Satan in Is 14, and also Ezek.

Hello Macca,
I happen to agree with armothe, regardless of whoever these "respected commentaries" are that you speak of. Read for yourself and draw your own conclusions. Lucifer does not appear to be satan.

The adversary is spoken of very clearly in John 8:44.

Joh 8:44 Ye, are, of your father—the adversary, and, the covetings of your father, ye choose to be doing. He, was, a murderer, from the beginning, and, in the truth, he stood not; because truth is not in him: Whensoever he speaketh falsehood, of his own, he speaketh; because, false, he is, and, the father of it.

The adversary was never good. He was a murderer and liar from the beginning. How does that compare with the description of this so called Lucifer which you say is really satan in the verses of Ezek?

 

[Tkjjc]

Well, breaking down the Hebrew and Greek definitions first let us have a look...

satan in hebrew
1) adversary, one who withstands
a) adversary (in general - personal or national)
2) superhuman adversary



in greek
1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act)



So again I ask,,,who or what is Satan or satan?
Why would Jesus call Peter Satan? Was he? How would God in the OT use this Satan,,,as a means to an end? Because this word was used many times,,,and here is just 1 example:



Num 22:22

And God's anger was kindled because he went : and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary =(satan in Hebrew) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants with him.



So if we are to know what we are fighting against,,,this ememy we call satan...who or what is he? I have some thoughts myself from reading and studying, but I am curious if anyone else has drawn any conclusions or thoughts.

 

[stranger]

I just wanted to actually ask this question and get some different input. If the Jews for over 3000 years didn't think or conceive of a literal being called Satan,,is there really such a being?

Would God actually create such a being, and for what purpose.

People have difficulty conceiving of the Messiah, the Christ, as being spirit , people have difficulty in not seeing God as a man ... the problem is the same with Satan , but worse because he was created, unlike God or the Word [Logos] that menifested as Jesus the Messiah of Israel ...

So many Jews do not yet accept their messiah because he is not their king yet and christians see that he has returned to spirit and puzzle over how a man could be God ...

The solution can be expressed that God is spirit, not flesh and bones and yet can manifest in the flesh , just as angels have been mistaken for men :-

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

The scriptural understanding of Satan comes from the understanding of Jesus now standing at the right-hand of God, a position symboilised in the OT as that of the right-hand covering cherub [mistranslated as 'cherbim' in some scripts and even the double plural 'cherubims' in KJV and other bibles] at the throne of God

Each cherubim has at one stage [manifestation] the face of a man :-

Ezekiel 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

Thus one might expect a period of destructive power in the life of Logos , the so-called 'Wrath of the Lamb of God' ... and to return to spirit 'on eagle's wings'

What then has this to do with Satan? Note that he was in Eden as the serpent and that God goes to great lengths indeed to PROVE justly his blaspheny [2Thes 2:4] before condemning him to death for his sin:-

How can Satan die and be locked away, powerless over his death, for a thousand years? the answer in Ezek 28 :-

Ezekiel 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no god, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
....
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
...
16 ... and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
...
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

...

Ther are but TWO covering cherubs at the mercy seat, the throne of God [founded on love and thus mercy ...! ]

So why then is Satan in effect half of the manifestation of God in this world, but the created half not the uncreated half [John 1:1]

It is very different what the scripture says than is the popular image of Satan...

What is then acheived once God has destroyed Satan the men indeed what is acheived to the glory of God when Satan as a CREATURE accepts Jesus as Lord, as does all creation :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

What God acheived in Jesus is to show that love is the way back to Him , perfect love without iniquity :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

What God acheives in Satan is to show there is no alternative way and that He is the only god ..

These two then are complementary together making up the full glory of God as the one god which works in the ned to redeem all creation to Himself ... both are necessary , both are as important as each other , thus to god they are alike in importance though completely opposte in manifestation :-

Psalms 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Men mostly cannot yet accept this, that God created evil for sake of good in the end to all creation through establishing that he is the ONLY god :-

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

 

[Spade48d]

People have difficulty conceiving of the Messiah, the Christ, as being spirit , people have difficulty in not seeing God as a man ... the problem is the same with Satan , but worse because he was created, unlike God or the Word [Logos] that menifested as Jesus the Messiah of Israel ...

So many Jews do not yet accept their messiah because he is not their king yet and christians see that he has returned to spirit and puzzle over how a man could be God ...

The solution can be expressed that God is spirit, not flesh and bones and yet can manifest in the flesh , just as angels have been mistaken for men :-



The scriptural understanding of Satan comes from the understanding of Jesus now standing at the right-hand of God, a position symboilised in the OT as that of the right-hand covering cherub [mistranslated as 'cherbim' in some scripts and even the double plural 'cherubims' in KJV and other bibles] at the throne of God

Each cherubim has at one stage [manifestation] the face of a man :-



Thus one might expect a period of destructive power in the life of Logos , the so-called 'Wrath of the Lamb of God' ... and to return to spirit 'on eagle's wings'

What then has this to do with Satan? Note that he was in Eden as the serpent and that God goes to great lengths indeed to PROVE justly his blaspheny [2Thes 2:4] before condemning him to death for his sin:-

How can Satan die and be locked away, powerless over his death, for a thousand years? the answer in Ezek 28 :-

...

Ther are but TWO covering cherubs at the mercy seat, the throne of God [founded on love and thus mercy ...! ]

So why then is Satan in effect half of the manifestation of God in this world, but the created half not the uncreated half [John 1:1]

It is very different what the scripture says than is the popular image of Satan...

What is then acheived once God has destroyed Satan the men indeed what is acheived to the glory of God when Satan as a CREATURE accepts Jesus as Lord, as does all creation :-



What God acheived in Jesus is to show that love is the way back to Him , perfect love without iniquity :-



What God acheives in Satan is to show there is no alternative way and that He is the only god ..

These two then are complementary together making up the full glory of God as the one god which works in the ned to redeem all creation to Himself ... both are necessary , both are as important as each other , thus to god they are alike in importance though completely opposte in manifestation :-


Men mostly cannot yet accept this, that God created evil for sake of good in the end to all creation through establishing that he is the ONLY god :-

Hello stranger,

I don't get the same message from Ezekiel 28. That whole discussion was about a man, the leader, prince, king of Tyre.

Eze 28:2 `Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre:Thus said the Lord Yahweh:Because your heart has been high, And you do say:A el I [am], The habitation of Elohim I have inhabited, In the heart of the seas, And you [are] man, and not El, And you give out your heart as the heart of Elohim,
and...
Eze 28:12 `Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, And you have said to him:Thus said the Lord Yahweh:You are sealing up a measurement, Full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."

For me this passage in Ezekiel does not speak to the origin of Satan. However the most descriptive passages I could find were from Revelations:

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out,—the ancient serpent, he that is called Adversary and the Satan, that deceiveth the whole habitable world,—he was cast to the earth, and his messengers, with him, were cast.
Rev 20:1 And I saw a messenger, coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain upon his hand;
Rev 20:2 and he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is Adversary and the Accuser, and bound him for a thousand years,—
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and fastened and sealed it over him,—that he might not deceive the nations any more, until the thousand years, should be ended: after these, must he be loosed for a short time.
Rev 20:10 and, the Adversary that had been deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where were both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented, day and night, unto the ages of ages.

I get from the above passages a sense that Satan is a spiritual being. Also from Jude:
Jud 1:9 Whereas, Michael, the chief-messenger, when, with the adversary, disputing, he was reasoning about the body of Moses, durst not impose on him a defamatory sentence, but said—The Lord rebuke thee!

I would seem that Michael would not be reasoning with a non entity so Satan must be a spirit being. If so, then he is a creation of God.

What do you think?

 

[stranger]

Hello stranger,

I don't get the same message from Ezekiel 28. That whole discussion was about a man, the leader, prince, king of Tyre.

Eze 28:2 `Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre:Thus said the Lord Yahweh:Because your heart has been high, And you do say:A el I [am], The habitation of Elohim I have inhabited, In the heart of the seas, And you [are] man, and not El, And you give out your heart as the heart of Elohim,
and...
Eze 28:12 `Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, And you have said to him:Thus said the Lord Yahweh:You are sealing up a measurement, Full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."

For me this passage in Ezekiel does not speak to the origin of Satan. However the most descriptive passages I could find were from Revelations:

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out,—the ancient serpent, he that is called Adversary and the Satan, that deceiveth the whole habitable world,—he was cast to the earth, and his messengers, with him, were cast.
Rev 20:1 And I saw a messenger, coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain upon his hand;
Rev 20:2 and he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is Adversary and the Accuser, and bound him for a thousand years,—
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and fastened and sealed it over him,—that he might not deceive the nations any more, until the thousand years, should be ended: after these, must he be loosed for a short time.
Rev 20:10 and, the Adversary that had been deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where were both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented, day and night, unto the ages of ages.

Please read the whole of Ezekiel 28 ... some have troubled even to quote it for you here, but you did not take it all in yet :-

We know this is Satan because this 'leader of Tyre' was in Eden [as the serpent] and is the only one of the two covering cherubs at the very throne of God, the only one of the two who sins... God explains in other passages who is the leader [because of the enormous commercial trade at] Tyre , and it is Satan again , leading men because men cannot save themselcves from their greed which he exploits ...

So ask yourself which leader of Tyre was in Eden ... was it God, Adam, Eve, or Satan the serpent?

Revelation 20:2 .... the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, ...

I get from the above passages a sense that Satan is a spiritual being. Also from Jude:
Jud 1:9 Whereas, Michael, the chief-messenger, when, with the adversary, disputing, he was reasoning about the body of Moses, durst not impose on him a defamatory sentence, but said—The Lord rebuke thee!

I would seem that Michael would not be reasoning with a non entity so Satan must be a spirit being. If so, then he is a creation of God.

What do you think?

As Ezek 28 says, Satan was created and perfect at creation... and is indeed spiritual as a cherub, just as Jesus was translated to spirit at the right hand of God, thus is the right-hand covering cherub...

We can thus see that Satan is the left hand [sinister!] covering cherub and as such the prodigal craeated son of God , unlike the uncreated perfectly loving right-hand cherub...

This then gives us a handle into scripture because we know something abour cherubim [poorly translated as 'cherubims' in KJV and other bibles ... 'cherubs' is the anglicised plural of 'cherub', 'cherubim' is the Hebrew plural ... 'cherubims' just shows how ignorant were the translators we rely upon , that they were not baptised of the spirit to know all truth (John 16:13) , at least not before their work... actually a deep cause of division in christianity ... and clearly of Satan]

Here is the scripture then :-

Ezekiel 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

The other two chrubim may well be the seraphs [seraphim, seraphims!] about which what scripture we have in the bible says very little except that they are fiery serpents , a symbol I do not understand apat from the fire being the effect of God's truth upon men, seering heat of conscience that will not be supressed as most men do in this age to permit themselves to sin against their knowledge of good and evil]

So as for the two covering cherubs , they are indeed spirtual as cherubs , Jesus is described as being Logos, the Word of God, the 'steersman' of creation' , Satan is created 'Lucifer' [seemingly anothre bad translation, but it conveys the maening of his original perfection in light not that badly ... the Hebrew does not mean 'Lucifer' at all...it is just a substitution as ofetn is done by translators, they pick the nearest thing they recognise , else few peole would be aware of the menaing of the literal translation... this misrepresentation then is not so bad really, it conveys some of the meaning even if Lucifer is a pagan mythical concept...

The imporatant thing here is the second face, both Jesus and Satan manifest as men , and die mortal deaths ... one justly for blasphemy, one completely unjustly for sake of showing men that there is a way through death, that hell cannot contain anyone beyond the thousand years at the second resurrection :-

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
...
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Men and Satan are all released from death then into the rihteous new earth, many men to do righteous works and save themselves from yet another death for sin , a second death :-

Romans 6:7 [Rotherham] For, he that hath died, hath become righteously acquitted from his sin.

2 Peter 3:13 But, new heavens, and a new earth, according to his promise, are we expecting, wherein, righteousness, is to dwell.

Ezekiel 18:21 shows then that mnay men will be saved at judgment day , whereas only few find the [only] strait narrowe way of Jesus, sainthood, sanctification, in THIS earth ...

What then of Satan... a second death for sin along with those who reject God's baptism of all flesh in the new earth...

resurrection to the lake of fire [for Satan is still a man and so are those who are most evil ] , but God has taken away all those that the evil preyed upon for benefit in this earth and the new earth, the lake of 'fire' is simply God's truth being caused by God to come home to the most evil of men, they are left to prey on ech other and there is no more gain for them, they suffer from each other because they believe in evil, and do not accept even spirit baptism to know all God's truth [Joel 2:28]

Clearly they will all sue for god's endiuring mercy and abandon Satan, there is no other way out and they are not stupid enough biot to see when God has made his point so very clearly that evil does not benefit everyone , but rather hurts more than it benefits...

Satan is then eventually left alone , a piteous creature who thought he would make a god because men and angels followed him, almost all men in fact, in sin [Rev 13:3-8]

Ezekiel 28 also points this out, so please read it all. because Satan is the prodigal son of God, his final face is of an eagle , the spirit, as a created being he does come to accept jesus as his lord and obey him by renouncing all evil and sin and turning to accept Jesus command as lord to love God and all creation...

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

Jesus own words then, all craeted beings will accept him as lord in the end , albeit not until some have died twice as mortals ad suffered their own evil on themselves in the lake of 'fire'... the final test of whether God is right or not that love is the ONLY way of life ...and leds to the spirit once one has ceased from sin completely and just loves...

 

[Spade48d]

Hello stranger,

I have read all of Ezekiel 28 and the I can see where descriptions indeed sound like the king of Tyre is Satan. However, please look back where I posted the two relevant verses 2 and 12. Verses 2 says the leader of Tyre is a man not el. and verse 12 begins the same as verse 2 with that introductory phrase `Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, And you have said to him:

I still don't think this is a depiction of the origin of Satan. The only thing solid I can find is John 8:44 that says Satan was a murderer and liar from the beginning.



What did you make of Rev 20:10? It looks like maybe Satan will be thrown back into the LOF after the millenium and the second death.

 

[stranger]

Hi my friend, here is the bit you missed then :- Ezek 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

Hello stranger,

I have read all of Ezekiel 28 and the I can see where descriptions indeed sound like the king of Tyre is Satan. However, please look back where I posted the two relevant verses 2 and 12. Verses 2 says the leader of Tyre is a man not el. and verse 12 begins the same as verse 2 with that introductory phrase `Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, And you have said to him:

I still don't think this is a depiction of the origin of Satan. The only thing solid I can find is John 8:44 that says Satan was a murderer and liar from the beginning.



What did you make of Rev 20:10? It looks like maybe Satan will be thrown back into the LOF after the millenium and the second death.

Try reading my above post again, you do not seem to have taken in a single word of what is pointed to in scripture there and there is only so much scripture to point to about Satan, thus look again... Satan does indeed manifect as a man even though he was craeted perfect and walked amidst the stones of fire in heaven, at the very throne of God , as spirit, as a coveriing cherub... Just as Just was God in the beginning as the Word, but manifested as a man ... satan too is a son of God, but a created son, and is the prodigal son, returning home to 'eagle wings' [spirit] only at the very end of time, after the lake of fire does its final work of showing the evil that they cannot live alone with only evil men and Satan their false god, because evil only works by taking form others, eveil men see that when they are th ones who suffer from it instead of benefitting form others' losses] Thus Satan does indeed die twice as a man, as do all the most eveil of men, men who refuse God's baptism, refuse His truth when it is finally given to all men [Joel 2:28] Note then that all men are brought to life only by the spirit God gives us and that the spirit returns to god, the spirit does not die at death of the body, nor can spirit die , it is of God :- Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then [at death]shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Thus the spirit can manifest as a man , the second face of the cherubs is a man , a mortal who can and does die as a man, but the cherub is a spirit at the throne of God...

 

[stranger]

Satan is not my enemy. Sin is my enemy because it separates me from God (though not God from me). Satan can't do anything to me unless I allow him to, which I do each time I fail to do the will of God.

Thus my struggle is not against Satan but against my sin.

It is only Satan who pronmotes sin to anyone who struggles to try not to do it.... thus he is better known as an adversary than an enemy, the actual meaning of 'Satan' in hebrew... He simply tempts people with wily deceptions that sin is good for them ... doesn't mention that it harms them and everyone else and has no long-term perospects at all... a 'quick buck'... worse than the most addictive drug sin gets people coming back for more because it does not offer the lasting satisfaction of love...its opposite... Thus Satan is pretty much of an enemy because he harms everyone by menas of wily deceits which most men cannot resist ...that is the act of an enemy, not a friend... but inb strictest terms, His name means the adversary or opposer [of God's law of love]...