Samaritan Torah

Open Heart said:

Apparently you don't know the definition of sincere or you wouldn't have made that statement. You are falsely accusing me.

Listen carefully. Messianics, Catholics, Baptists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Methodists, and all the rest, accept the same TORAH as the Jews to be the inspired word of God, no other.

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Proof.....


I want, NO I DEMAND, irrefutable PROOF Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D. is presenting lies; and that this website( Jewish and Christian Bibles: Comparative Chart) is supporting these lies in the name of Catholicism!

If you can't back up your claims; don't respond to this thread.

Open Heart said:

OMGosh Hark, find me one, just one, solidly Christian denomination that doesn't accept the standard Jewish Torah as the inspired word of God.

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If by "standard Jewish Torah" you mean the Masoretic Text; then we should probably start here:

Scribal emendations – Tikkune Soferim
Main article: Tiqqun soferim
Early rabbinic sources, from around 200 CE, mention several passages of Scripture in which the conclusion is inevitable that the ancient reading must have differed from that of the present text. The explanation of this phenomenon is given in the expression "Scripture has used euphemistic language" (כנה הכתוב), i.e. to avoid anthropomorphism and anthropopathism.[9]

Rabbi Simon ben Pazzi (3rd century) calls these readings "emendations of the Scribes" (tikkune Soferim; Midrash Genesis Rabbah xlix. 7), assuming that the Scribes actually made the changes. This view was adopted by the later Midrash and by the majority of Masoretes.

Masoretic Text - Wikipedia

In other words, even the Masoretes believed that they started with a flawed text, even before they made their changes. If Moshe saw the Masoretic text; he wouldn't be able to read it.


Now, to answer you question: It boggles my mind that as a Catholic, you don't understand that Catholicism relies most heavily on the Septuagint.

(CLV) Jer 8:8
How can you say, We are wise, And the law of Yahweh is with us? Surely, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made a falsehood.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

The LXX was widely available and used during the time of Yeshua. When Yeshua read Scripture in the synagogue, the text he read followed the LXX (see Luke 4:16-–19). It is the version used in all the Orthodox Churches for almost 2000 years.

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There were several texts in circulation, side by side, at that time. I'm well aware of Yahshua's quotes which are found in the Septuagint, but which are not found in the Masoretic Text.

Open Heart said:

Again, please deal with my question to you: what easily recognizable Christian denomination accepts anything other than the standard Jewish Torah as its books of law?

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You are here: Home / The Bible / SEPTUAGINT QUOTES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
SEPTUAGINT QUOTES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT


Acts 7:14 / Gen. 46:27; Deut. 10:22 – Stephen says “seventy-five” souls went down to Egypt. Hebrew – “seventy” people went.

Acts 7:27-28 / Exodus 2:14 – uses “ruler” and judge; killed the Egyptian “yesterday.” Hebrew – uses “prince” and there is no reference to “yesterday.”

Rom. 9:17 / Exodus 9:16 – my power “in you”; my name may be “proclaimed.” Hebrew – show “thee”; may name might be “declared.”

1 Cor. 5:13 / Deut. 17:7 – remove the “wicked person.” Hebrew – purge the “evil.” This is more generic evil in the MT.

Gal. 3:10 / Deut. 27:26 – cursed be every one who does not “abide” by all things. Hebrew – does not “confirm” the words.

Gal. 3:13 / Deut. 21:23 – cursed is everyone who hangs on a “tree.” Hebrew – a hanged man is accursed. The word “tree” does not follow.

2 Tim. 2:19 / Num. 16:5 – The Lord “knows” those who are His. Hebrew – God will “show” who are His.

Heb. 1:6 / Deut. 32:43 – let all the angels of God worship Him. Hebrew – the Masoretic text omits this phrase from Deut. 32:43.

Heb. 11:5 / Gen. 5:24 – Enoch was not “found.” Hebrew – Enoch was “not.”

Heb. 11:21 / Gen. 47:31 – Israel, bowing “over the head of his staff.” Hebrew – there is nothing about bowing over the head of his staff.

1 Pet. 2:9 / Exodus 19:6 – you are a “royal priesthood.” Hebrew – you shall be to me a “kingdom of priests.”

SEPTUAGINT QUOTES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic

Until recently, most Catholic versions of the Old Testament were translated (primarily) from the Latin Vulgate rather than from the LXX or the MT. They might be based on the Vulgate using the LXX and the MT for purposes of comparison (e.g., to decide between disputed renderings), but the Vulgate was the base text used by most Western Catholics. (It’s different among Eastern Catholics.)

The Vulgate was based on the (pre-Masoretic) Hebrew text, the LXX, and the Old Latin Version.

It was in the 20th century that a significant number of translations started to be made from pre-Latin sources. This was encouraged by Pius XII in his encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu.

When this started happening, Catholic translators relied on a combination of the LXX and the MT.

The canon of the Catholic Old Testament is based on the LXX, so that’s the top level where the LXX is employed in making translations. (In the ancient world, both the LXX and the Hebrew scriptures had fuzzy boundaries about what books they included, but a few centuries after Christ the Catholic Church settled on one LXX-derived canon and in about the same timeframe the Jewish community settled on one Hebrew canon, which was later used to prepare the MT.)

Septuagint Or Masoretic Text?

I hope this helps.

Open Heart said:

The New American Bible (NAB) is the official Catholic Bible of the United Stated Council of Catholic Bishops. It is true to the Masoretic Text, rather than the Septuagint (which is the reason I prefer it to any other Christian translation).

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Are you aware that according to the Critical Text, that the (NAB) contains fiction?

Mark 16:17 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
17 These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will drive out demons, they will speak new languages.

Mark 16:18 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
18 They will pick up serpents [with their hands], and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 16:18 - New American Bible (Revised Edition)


Mark 16:9-20

Omitted in the critical text. See Mark 16

List of major textual variants in the New Testament - Wikipedia

AbbaLove said:

This thread has turned into a debate/argument between a "non-denominational" and a "Messianic Jewish Catholic" in this MJ forum? Thought the thread's Title might weave itself toward the "Order of the Haggadah of the Feast of Passover According to the Custom of the Karaite Jews" instead of its current Rabbit Trail.

www.karaite-korner.org/haggadah_2.shtml​

Karaite Judaism doesn't accept the “Oral Torah”—the Talmud, the Shulchan Aruch and other halachic (Jewish legal) texts—but they consider themselves to be devout Jews: The Karaites numbered about 40 percent of the Jewish people at their height, but today they have shrunk to less than one percent.

When interpreting the Tanakh, Karaites strive to adhere to the plain or most obvious meaning (peshat) of the text; this is not necessarily the literal meaning, but rather the meaning that would have been naturally understood by the ancient Israelitles when the books of the Tanakh were first written. By contrast, Rabbinic Judaism relies on the legal rulings of the Sanhedrin as they are codified in the Midrash, Talmud, and other sources to indicate the authentic meaning of the Torah.

From 40% to less than one: the Karaite Jews who remain
Karaite Judaism - Wikipedia
​

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I have tremendous admiration for the Karaites. When I first found out about them; I started looking for a local Karaite synogogue. Well, there aren't any; but that wouldn't seem to matter because of this:

What is Karaite Judaism?
Karaite Jews are a small but growing community within Judaism that coalesced about 1200 years ago. The congregations were drawn together by the common belief that the Talmud, a series of commentaries written by Rabbis, is not a second "Oral Torah" but is merely made up of commentaries written by men. Karaite Jews do not believe that men may offer interpretations that contradict the written scriptures. Karaites observe the commandments by the plain meaning ("Peshat" in Hebrew). As a result Karaites do not light candles on Shabbat, which is forbidden in the Torah; do not separate meat and dairy in their meals as this is a practice purely of Rabbinical origin; and women have greater rights and play a greater role in the community as the scriptures do not include much of the misogyny that pervades Rabbinical commentaries. Karaite Judaism includes traditions and practices that assist in the observance of these commandments provided that no tradition or practice may violate any requirement of the Torah (the Five Books of Moses), or the Prophets and Writings that comprise the Hebrew Bible.

The Torah clearly states: "Do not add to what I command you nor subtract from it, keep the commandments that I, YHVH your ruler, gave you." Devarim (Deuteronomy) 4:2.

Please be aware that the word Karaite or Qaraim is used by many people who are not affiliated with Karaite Judaism but who have decided to take the name for one reason or another. To this end please inquire of anyone who calls themselves a Karaite Jew if they are in fact Jewish or if they are associated with Universal Karaite Judaism, the official Karaite community. There are no Karaites who believe that Yeshua (Jesus) or Muhammed were prophets and anyone who claims this, or espouses beliefs that are incompatible with Judaism, is not a member of the Karaite Jewish Community. Links to official Karaite websites are included below.

http://www.beneimikra.com/2010/04/origins-of-rabbinic-passover-seder.html

Despite a slim chance of finding any fellowship with them, there is still much to be learned from them. I've downloaded so many articles and PDFs from their sites; that I've lost count; and I haven't had the time to organize them all in my files.

P.S. I'm not your 'run of the mill' Non-denominational. For example, I doubt that I can ever walk into a building that has a cross on it, unless I go to do missionary work.

I told my friend that I was thinking about doing some missionary work. He said, " oh no, I know what you're thinking." He told me that I should buy some riot gear. I asked him why. He said, "that way when you walk into a church, you can put your hands on your hips, puff out your chest, and proclaim, 'I'M HERE TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH'! Then when they ask you what the riot gear is for; you can tell them, 'after I tell you the truth, you're going to want to stone me; and those stones huuuuurt'!

I believe that a true follower of Yahshua is a Notsri. There is no Notsri congregation in my area; so I settled for a Messianic congregation, as our beliefs most closely align. Notsri in English is Nazarene; but the Nazarene congregations do not closely align with what Yahshua said and practiced; so I don't call myself a Nazarene. I go with Non-denominational; so that no one gets the wrong idea about what I believe; yet it seems everyone still gets the wrong idea about what I believe. Why not just let my words tell you what I believe, instead of some ambiguous label?

Aside from that, I continued the dialogue Regarding Catholicism; because it presented the opportunity to stress the numerous accepted texts which have been in circulation with Yahshua and his followers. We can fairly reason that all of these texts are corrupted.

When I want to get a feel for the truth of what's going on in this world; I translate newspapers from all over the world. They all lie, with their own brand of propaganda; but when you read enough lies; you can start to piece together the little bits of truth that slip through.

It works backwards too. When you have truth that has lies mixed in; if you can read this truth from enough sources; you can begin to screen out the lies. The Samaritan Torah is a useful tool; and I look forward to the truth that it lends to textual criticism.

Shalom

AbbaLove said:

Feast of Passovr According to the Custom of the Karaite Jews

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Here's a fairly decent documentary of the Samaritan Pesach:

Elihoenai said:

Uncircumcised foreigners are not allowed to participate in Passover!


Exodus 12:48 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

48 `And when a sojourner sojourneth with thee, and hath made a passover to Jehovah, every male of his [is] to be circumcised, and then he doth come near to keep it, and he hath been as a native of the land, but any uncircumcised one doth not eat of it;


THE SAMARITAN PASSOVER.

"...As we came out through the compound on our way home, I met a well-dressed Samaritan and approaching him began to ask him for a little piece of the unleavened bread, but he ran from me as from an enemy, their belief being that contact with a foreigner would have vitiated the spiritual value of the entire ceremony...."

The Samaritan Passover

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I believe that I saw the person, who made this contact, on Youtube. It boggles my mind that someone would travel to document the Samaritan Pesach, without even understanding the basics of the Torah.

I was telling my wife that what this ignorant fellow was asking, was for this devout Samaritan to violate YHWH's, command not to share the Pesach meal with a non-believer.

The way that he presented it seems like a misrepresentation to me; especially in the light that the Samaritan ran away. I've heard that the Muslims will show up to, take the meal, or disrupt the proper procedure that YHWH commands. I'd run too.

Elihoenai said:

Put the ignorant foreigner under the knife.

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First there needs to be a circumcision of the heart. If the ignorant foreigner has not the heart to hear and obey YHWH's Torah; then an outward circumcision is of no effect.