Salvation for non-Christians?

Basil the Great · Sep 2, 2011

I figured there was no need to post this in the main forum, as I know that most liberal Lutherans believe that salvation is possible for non-Christians. I am curious as to whether Modernism has changed the conservative Lutheran view of salvation, like it has the RCC view. Do most WELS and LC-MS Lutherans insist that only Christians will be saved or do most believe that Jews, Muslims and others who love God and their neighbor still have a chance at salvation? Do those who insist that only Christians will be saved still fell that there is a chance that God might save some who never hear the Gospel message and yet lead lives of love or are they lost despite the fact that they never get to hear the message of Jesus?

DaRev · Sep 2, 2011

Basil the Great said:
I figured there was no need to post this in the main forum, as I know that most liberal Lutherans believe that salvation is possible for non-Christians. I am curious as to whether Modernism has changed the conservative Lutheran view of salvation, like it has the RCC view. Do most WELS and LC-MS Lutherans insist that only Christians will be saved or do most believe that Jews, Muslims and others who love God and their neighbor still have a chance at salvation? Do those who insist that only Christians will be saved still fell that there is a chance that God might save some who never hear the Gospel message and yet lead lives of love or are they lost despite the fact that they never get to hear the message of Jesus?

The passage in Romans 10 speaks directly to this. "Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. But how can they call upon one of whom they don not believe? And how can they believe in one of whom they have never heard? Therefore faith comes by hearing, and hearing the message of Christ." Also Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved." Plus, of course, John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me."

While we also believe the Lord's words in Exodus 33:19, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion", it is through faith in Christ that this is done. Faith is the gift of God, enacted in us by the Holy Spirit. If any who are currently non-Christian are to be saved, it will be done through faith in Christ as the Scriptures state.

filosofer · Sep 2, 2011

Officially LCMS, WELS, ELS, AALC believe that there is no salvation apart from Christ (Acts 4:12, John 14:6, etc.). A specific individual within each group may believe that someone can be saved apart from Christ, but with no Biblical basis.

The issue of not hearing the Gospel argument is answered by Paul in Romans 2-3. If someone has the written law, that person is condemned under it. If someone does not have the written law, the person still has the law written in the heart and is condemned by it. So all are without excuse.

Romans 2:14-16 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Paul concludes that entire section with Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It does not say, For all who have heard have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Or The wages of sin is death it does not say, the wages of sin is death for those who have heard and rejected.

Ultimately, it is this knowledge that there is no escape clause for those who do not hear that adds to our motivation to proclaim the Gospel to as many people as we can.

DaRev · Sep 2, 2011

In light of Paul's words in Romans 10, along with what Filo has quoted above, I have always understood there to be three kinds of people:

Those who have heard the Gospel and acknowledge it by faith. They are saved.
Those who have heard the Gospel and actively reject it. They are lost.
Those who have never heard. They are lost.

alexnbethmom · Sep 2, 2011

DaRev said:
In light of Paul's words in Romans 10, along with what Filo has quoted above, I have always understood there to be three kinds of people:

Those who have heard the Gospel and acknowledge it by faith. They are saved.
Those who have heard the Gospel and actively reject it. They are lost.
Those who have never heard. They are lost.

just curious - if someone lives in a tribe way out in the middle of absolute nowhere, some place that doesn't even show up on maps, and they have never heard, because nobody has ever been to that island, or wherever, to teach them, how can they be lost, when they don't know any different?

mdseverin · Sep 2, 2011

I'm sorry, I know I shouldn't post in this section but the topic intrigued me. I'm not going to debate anything, I just want further clarification.

Those that have not heard are lost? I thought the Lutheran belief is that no one is predestined to damnation. If they never hear the message, they do not have faith, therefore they were always condemned. What am I missing here?

Studeclunker · Sep 2, 2011

alexnbethmom said:
just curious - if someone lives in a tribe way out in the middle of absolute nowhere, some place that doesn't even show up on maps, and they have never heard, because nobody has ever been to that island, or wherever, to teach them, how can they be lost, when they don't know any different?

mdseverin said:
Those that have not heard are lost? I thought the Lutheran belief is that no one is predestined to damnation. If they never hear the message, they do not have faith, therefore they were always condemned. What am I missing here?

Not only are they lost but, "There will be many who say Lord, Lord... and he will say I never knew you!" So, there are many who think they are saved who will not be.

Please don't start those circular double-negative type arguments, Mum. Yes, they are damned unless the Lord condescends to grant them salvation through Christ. However, since they have never heard the word, that's biblically speaking, unlikely. Like the Revrand quoted, 'the Lord will have mercy on whom he will...' there we must leave it. By the by, there really isn't anywhere left that doesn't show up on "the maps."

Speaking of which, this is why all the anthropoligists' insistance on not 'polluting' these aboriginie peoples with 'Western thinking and religions' is so dangerous. Listening to these people and the governments that back them is damning whole nations of peoples. Then again, there are some places that the evil one has locked down as his strongholds (like the Muslim countries). Unless the Lord breaks down the barriers and sends us in to help these peoples, we are fated do descry their loss to the Church. Just as the people who live across the street from the church I attend will likely be damned. They never go to church, don't belong to one, don't want to, and likely never will. The vast majority of humanity seems to be headed for Hell.

filosofer · Sep 2, 2011

mdseverin said:
I'm sorry, I know I shouldn't post in this section but the topic intrigued me. I'm not going to debate anything, I just want further clarification.

Those that have not heard are lost? I thought the Lutheran belief is that no one is predestined to damnation. If they never hear the message, they do not have faith, therefore they were always condemned. What am I missing here?

Good question but you are tackling two different issues. One is predestination (which is only one sided) and the other is why are people condemned and when. God does not predestine people to hell (1 Timothy 2:3-4). The issue here is that no one starts out half way between heaven and hell, or neutral. Rather, all start out in the hole, born in sin, and as noted in John 3:18 “they are condemned already.” The only possibility is God’s saving action through the Holy Spirit using the Word (proclaimed, written, signed, etc.). Or in Paul’s words “having been made alive by God” (Ephesians 2:4-5). That is why proclamation is so critical and so urgent. We need to reach the people with the truth.

If the other scenario is true, that they can get to heaven apart from Jesus Christ, then it would be better NEVER to preach about Christ, because if they hear and reject, then they go to hell. But if they don’t hear then they can get to heaven? I guess we shouldn’t tell anyone about Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life.

DaRev · Sep 2, 2011

alexnbethmom said:
just curious - if someone lives in a tribe way out in the middle of absolute nowhere, some place that doesn't even show up on maps, and they have never heard, because nobody has ever been to that island, or wherever, to teach them, how can they be lost, when they don't know any different?

Two words: Original sin. We are conceived and born in sin and in rebellion against God. As such we are destined for hell except by the grace of God through faith on account of Christ. This is why evangelism and out reach is so important.

Basil the Great · Sep 2, 2011

Studeclunker said:
Not only are they lost but, "There will be many who say Lord, Lord... and he will say I never knew you!" So, there are many who think they are saved who will not be.

Please don't start those circular double-negative type arguments, Mum. Yes, they are damned unless the Lord condescends to grant them salvation through Christ. However, since they have never heard the word, that's biblically speaking, unlikely. Like the Revrand quoted, 'the Lord will have mercy on whom he will...' there we must leave it. By the by, there really isn't anywhere left that doesn't show up on "the maps."

Speaking of which, this is why all the anthropoligists' insistance on not 'polluting' these aboriginie peoples with 'Western thinking and religions' is so dangerous. Listening to these people and the governments that back them is damning whole nations of peoples. Then again, there are some places that the evil one has locked down as his strongholds (like the Muslim countries). Unless the Lord breaks down the barriers and sends us in to help these peoples, we are fated do descry their loss to the Church. Just as the people who live across the street from the church I attend will likely be damned. They never go to church, don't belong to one, don't want to, and likely never will. The vast majority of humanity seems to be headed for Hell.

Studeclunker - Your post made me feel a little better in that you at least left the door open a crack for those who never hear the Gospel. Now, as to your more scary words.... I remain unconvinced that Hell exists or that it will last for eternity. However, I do not deny such, I just am unable to affirm the words of the Athanasian Creed which does do precisely that. Neverthless, it pains me to say it, but if Hell does exist, then I have come to the same conclusion that you have, namely, that most of humanity seems to be headed there. Not only that, I will match your claim and even raise you. I fear that a strong majority of baptized Christians also appear to be headed for Hell, again, assuming that Hell does exist.

filosofer · Sep 2, 2011

Matthew 25:46 NAS95

Jesus said: These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Note that if hell is not eternal, then heaven will not be eternal either.

alexnbethmom · Sep 2, 2011

Studeclunker said:
Please don't start those circular double-negative type arguments, Mum.

i wasn't starting a circular double-negative type argument. i was genuinely asking a legitimate question - this is what had been taught to me in the churches my mother dragged me to growing up - that if you haven't heard, you can't reject, and therefore, you would not be condemned (or something like that) - it's a remnant from my past religious upbringing.

reading the responses that followed, and talking to Rev tonight about it, explaining it to me, now it makes sense, and i get it.

please don't accuse me of something i was not doing.

Studeclunker · Sep 3, 2011

alexnbethmom said:
i wasn't starting a circular double-negative type argument. i was genuinely asking a legitimate question - this is what had been taught to me in the churches my mother dragged me to growing up - that if you haven't heard, you can't reject, and therefore, you would not be condemned (or something like that) - it's a remnant from my past religious upbringing.

reading the responses that followed, and talking to Rev tonight about it, explaining it to me, now it makes sense, and i get it.

please don't accuse me of something i was not doing.

My sincere apologies. We have gone through this subject several times and the argument you used is the hardest to deal with. One of those soap cakes that squirts out just when one thinks they've finally gotten a good grip on it.

I really, really, like Filo's last though. Very well said!

Basil, with Filo's example to wit, do you call Jesus Christ a liar? Perhaps the writers of Scripture as well? Are you saying the writers of Scripture are the authors and not Christ? That perhaps Scripture is nothing more or less than fables for moral living? If you have been poisoned with a doubt of Sheol, then you must also doubt Heaven itself. You are not allowed to cherry-pick with scripture if you are a true Lutheran. Either all scripture is true or none of it is. Take Jesus' example of the two houses; one was built on sand and the sea (doubt) washed it away. The other was built on rock (Christ, trust in his Word) and it withstood the sea (doubt). As you toss aside bits of scripture, you are tossing aside the foundation of your faith (the Word). Doing this will eventually erode your faith with doubt till it comes crashing down into unbelief. You currently tread, my friend, where wisemen shun the path.

Basil the Great · Sep 3, 2011

Studeclunker - Your point is well taken. However, I would remind you that throughout Church history there have been those who doubted the reality of eternal punishment. Augustine even admitted that many Christians in his day did not believe in the eternity of Hell. A few of the Early Church Fathers were even skeptical of the doctrine, most notably St. Gregory of the Eastern Orthodox Church. As far as Scripture goes, there are enough problems in Scripture that I feel safe in refusing to be a literalist. Ex: the Old Testament endorsed slavery, rape, genocide, etc. The New Testament endorsed slavery as well. I believe that Scripture was inspired by God, but written by men and men make mistakes. I simply cannot believe that the Holy Spirit dictated every line in the New Testament, especially where Paul tells slaves to be obedient to their masters.

Now, I again repeat that I do not deny the possibility of eternal punishment. I am not so foolish as to do such a thing. I just have grave doubts about the doctrine. Now, I do recognize a difference in Scripture between what appear to be cultural commands, like Paul telling women to be submissive to their husbands and his command to the slaves to obey their masters vs. moral law commands, like the admonition against homosexual sex. Try as I might, I just cannot see how the liberal denominations can justify gay sex.

Back to the issue of salvation for those who never hear the Gospel message, it is this situation which really causes me to doubt the reality of eternal punishment more than any other.

Basil the Great · Sep 3, 2011

Studeclunker - I am curious... Do you agree or disagree with my fear that the bulk of baptized Christians are in danger of going to Hell?

filosofer · Sep 3, 2011

Basil the Great said:
Studeclunker - I am curious... Do you agree or disagree with my fear that the bulk of baptized Christians are in danger of going to Hell?

I am not Studeclunker…

The only we fear we should have is: “Am I as a baptized Christian concerned about going to hell?” But if I look to Christ, not myself, then the question no longer applies.

The rest involves teaching, teaching, and teaching.

Studeclunker · Sep 4, 2011

filosofer said:
I am not Studeclunker

The only we fear we should have is: Am I as a baptized Christian concerned about going to hell? But if I look to Christ, not myself, then the question no longer applies.

The rest involves teaching, teaching, and teaching.

The above is as good an answer as I could give, Basil. However, remember it is written that many on the day of judgement will say Lord, Lord, and he will say, "I never knew you!" I rest in the truths Scripture gives me and in the wisdom of God, and there I must leave it.

Now, as to the other remarks you made. The Bible does not, in any place, condone slavery. However, it does commend an obediant slave who obeys his master and comports himself as an example of Christ's sacrificial service.

I must bow to the Lord's wisdom when he said to kill all that moved. For example: We find that decendants of the king Saul had spared came back later to attempt the massacre of the Jews in the book of Esther. Look now at the unsolvable mess of the middle-east. The Jews will give land and concessions for peace and their bretheren, the Arabs, will never be satisfied. Thus I can understand how God is more wise than we and sometimes he makes decisions we can't understand. Who are you to stand in judgement of God himself?

God does not, in any place in scripture, endorse sin or evil behaviour. He may use our transgressions to his purpose, however he does not ever condone it. There may be people in the old testament who condone or refuse to deal with, evil. However, God himself does not condone it at any place. In fact, Scripture often descrys such behaviour. You sound like a member of that liberal congregation when you say things like that, Basil.

bach90 · Sep 5, 2011

Salvation is by Grace alone through Faith in Jesus Christ alone.

People who do not believe in Jesus, no matter how many good deeds they do (which Isaiah calls "filthy rags") or how sincere their (false) belief is, a person cannot enter heaven unless they confess with Saint Peter "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."

I cannot go so far as to say that most of the world is heading for hell. I believe if someone confesses Christ and Him crucified, they will enter paradise. I strongly disagree with the so-called "Lordship salvation" so prevalent in American Christianity. We mature (spiritually speaking) at a different rate; we become sanctified at different rates. All Christians will struggle with sin, we cannot keep the law perfectly. It is only by the Holy Spirit that we can begin to keep the law.

As DaRev has all ready mentioned, this is why evangelism and outreach are so important.

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