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If on the day of judgement Jesus tells them to "Depart from me", there is no other option.In response to the question is the persons in Matthew 7:23 are they saved, Phil W states:
I would personally like for you to prove this.
Can we be saved without believing?It is very obvious that Phil W believes that we are saved by works.
This is where you guys are always found out. You have to turn Scripture on its head in order for it to fit your dangerously erroneous Theology.The clarity is in how "cut off" would be understood by Hebrew believers.
All through the OT the words "cut off" were used to refer to capital punishment, or physical death as a result of crimes committed.
Please provide any verse that clearly indicates that "cut off" means loss of salvation.
But why bother? We KNOW what Jesus said. Recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28
Do you believe what Jesus said about recipients in John 10:28 or not?
What many people miss or just misunderstand is that the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 were NEVER saved to begin with.If on the day of judgement Jesus tells them to "Depart from me", there is no other option.
No. That's the ONLY WAY anyone CAN be saved.Can we be saved without believing?
No, it is not a work. Paul made that clear in Rom 4;4,5Isn't "believing" a work done by us for salvation?
Actually, the opposite is true. This is where YOU GUYS are found out.This is where you guys are always found out. You have to turn Scripture on its head in order for it to fit your dangerously erroneous Theology.
Ignore Scripture's warnings at your peril...
I'm Catholic. If Arminians agree that Salvatuon can be lost then good for them.I said:
"The clarity is in how "cut off" would be understood by Hebrew believers.
All through the OT the words "cut off" were used to refer to capital punishment, or physical death as a result of crimes committed.
Please provide any verse that clearly indicates that "cut off" means loss of salvation.
But why bother? We KNOW what Jesus said. Recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28
Do you believe what Jesus said about recipients in John 10:28 or not?"
Actually, the opposite is true. This is where YOU GUYS are found out.
I pointed out the words "cut off" were used in the OT for physical death through capital punishment. So prove me wrong. Don't just accept your own opinion about things.
Second, I asked you a very simple question based on what Jesus said. And YOU dodged it. That's where ALL Arminians are found out.
They know their answer contradicts what Jesus said, so they just ignore the pesky little question.
And I don't ignore ANY of Scripture's warnings. And NONE of them are about losing salvation.
This is what amazes me about Arminians. Jesus was clear that once given eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.
But the Arminians continue to push their emotional opinions that recipients CAN perish.
The exact opposite of what Jesus taught.
You, sir, have been "found out".
You don't believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.
Not good for either Catholics or Arminians. Becuase Jesus says the OPPOSITE.I'm Catholic. If Arminians agree that Salvatuon can be lost then good for them.
Don't lecture me about who is blatantly ignoring passages. Your view is in direct opposition to that of the Lord Jesus.You blatantly ignore passages in Romans and Hebrews that are definitive on the possibility of being cut off from God.
Oh, what a hoot!!While you engage in illogical gymnastics trying to defend your grave error...
There you have it folks. The toys thrown out of the crib.Not good for either Catholics or Arminians. Becuase Jesus says the OPPOSITE.
This is what He said in John 10:28:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
So, how do you get from never perishing, to CAN perish?? Please explain.
Don't lecture me about who is blatantly ignoring passages. Your view is in direct opposition to that of the Lord Jesus.
As to being "cut off", the term is used in the OT for capital punishment. Do your research.
Oh, what a hoot!!
I'll tell you what is illogical. Directly opposing the words of Jesus Christ.
Shame on you.
Your theology is unbiblical.
Rather, there you have it folks, another Arminian who won't face the facts and truth about what Jesus said. He won't even discuss the verse because he knows he doesn't agree with what Jesus said.There you have it folks. The toys thrown out of the crib.
Look into a mirror when repeating this. Often.I hope and pray you see your error before you meet your Judgement...
I agree, as those born again have the seed of God within them to prevent falling to iniquity. (1 John 3:9)thomas15 said: ↑
In response to the question is the persons in Matthew 7:23 are they saved, Phil W states:
I would personally like for you to prove this.
What many people miss or just misunderstand is that the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 were NEVER saved to begin with.
Again, I agree.This is proven by Jesus' words, "I NEVER knew you". He could NOT have said that to anyone who EVER believed, even if they didn't believe at that time.
The "stuff they did", that proved they never knew each other, was iniquity.They were never believers, and never saved. In fact, what was their basis for getting into the kingdom? Works. Stuff they did. They were just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day.
If believing, for salvation, isn't a work, what is?No. That's the ONLY WAY anyone CAN be saved.
No, (believing) is not a work. Paul made that clear in Rom 4;4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Amen to that.If that wasn't clear, consider what else Paul said on the subject:
Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
It seems many people ASSUME "last state become worse" refers to ending up in hell. However, given the larger context that the passage is found in, the "last state" more naturally refers to the believer's life AFTER getting again entangled in the defilements of the world. iow, the believer will face God's divine discipline, which is painful, according to Heb 12:11.2:20-21, St Peter writes, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."
Again, it seems many ASSUME "impossible to restore again to repentance" refers to being impossible to regain salvation if they commit apostasy.Heb 6:4-6 it says, "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt."
I wish you had added the next 2 verses, since all 3 verses are together. So I'll provide them.Matt 7:21, "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father."
Now, it's your turn to address these same passages and explain them how you understand them.Seriously. Its there in black and white. Yet you have to engage in selective blindness to fit your illogical Theology...
It's a passive response to God's promise through His Son.If believing, for salvation, isn't a work, what is?
Correct.Circumcision, dietary laws, tithing, feast keeping, sabbath days, days of atonement, temple worship, etc. are the works Paul taught were unnecessary for salvation.
Hearing and believing are passive responses to the gospel.Not hearing, believing, having faith, confessing, repentance from sin, baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins, or continued obedience to God.
And God knows that no one will. So He provided the means of forgiveness and cleansing from our sins in 1 John 1:9.God makes new creatures that can remain obedient till the end!
Come on.You ended your post with this:
"Seriously. Its there in black and white. Yet you have to engage in selective blindness to fit your illogical Theology..."
So, I'll make comments about every passage to show what it means.
It seems many people ASSUME "last state become worse" refers to ending up in hell. However, given the larger context that the passage is found in, the "last state" more naturally refers to the believer's life AFTER getting again entangled in the defilements of the world. iow, the believer will face God's divine discipline, which is painful, according to Heb 12:11.
Also, Paul spoke of God's discipline in progressive stages in 1 Cor 11:30. Weakness, sickness, and physical death.
All of this would fit the 2 Peter passage about the believer's life AFTER re-entanglement with the defilements of the world.
Again, it seems many ASSUME "impossible to restore again to repentance" refers to being impossible to regain salvation if they commit apostasy.
However, the statement doesn't mention salvation at all, but rather, repentance. Scholars note that the group being written to was either returning to animal sacrifices or considering it, based on persecution from other Jews. Animal sacrifices was the OT system of atonement, as a shadow of the coming Messiah.
So, believers who have already believed in the Messiah would not repent if they returned to the sacrifices of the Law, thinking the Law would atone for their sins.
I wish you had added the next 2 verses, since all 3 verses are together. So I'll provide them.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Now, v.21 mentions the "will of the Father". This is clearly defined in John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
v.22 is the crowd's basis for entering the kingdom: what THEY did. Nothing about Jesus did for them. They show by their comment that they never believed in Jesus Christ for salvation.
v.23 the fact that they never believed is shown by Jesus' comment to them: "I NEVER knew you." If any of them had EVER believed, He couldn't have said that He "NEVER knew them".
Now, it's your turn to address these same passages and explain them how you understand them.
Thanks.
I fully agree. And this doesn't mean it's a work either.It is something that guarantees you will not be saved if you don't do it.
I'm right here.Come on.
No, I refuted your point by addressing EVERY verse/passage you gave in green ink. Maybe you didn't read them. Or if you didn't understand any of them, please ask, and I will be happy to explain with more clarity.You have just proved my point.
And I explained what they were warning about. God's discipline, which is painful, per Heb 12:11. And I gave biblical examples to prove it.I provide several clear and distinct warnings of the consequences for people who turn from God.
Everything I explained was straightforward and simple. I twisted nothing. Apparently I twisted your error strewn theology, and you are feeling it.Then you have to put a twist on them to fit your error strewn Theology.
Agreed.We need to understand we are all unworthy sinners.
Absolutely!!Yet God gives everyone access to his Grace if we accept the perfect the sacrifice of our Saviour, Jesus Christ.
Everything in this paragraph just SCREAMS of works. Please provide Scripture that TELLS us that these things are necessary (the keys) to salvation.Doing good works that please God. Continuous repentance of sin. Faithfully partaking in the Sacraments. Faithfully following Scripture and the Traditions of the Church. These are the keys to salvation...
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